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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:28 pm 


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I'm trying to source a VGA to SCART (csync/rawsync) cable for the MiSTer Analog I/O board.

I'm told the best place to go is Retro Access, however all her orders are unavailable until early May. I'd be looking for something like this.

https://retro-access.com/products/mister-io-scart

Anyone recommendations for a website with cables of similar quality and build?
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:41 pm 


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Rock Man wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
cave hermit wrote:
As someone who uses global ini vscale and disables it for the cores that have 5x vertical crop, is there any reason to continue using the vscale ini option when I could use the osd options instead? Like are there still cores that have yet to have the osd integer scale options added? Is there any functional difference between the osd scale and the ini scale?


Good question! Same here, always have had integer scale set globally. I think the Jotego cores don't yet include the OSD integer scaling options, maybe some other non-main-branch cores too probably. Functionally there should be no difference between integer scale set in the ini file or OSD.


Rock Man wrote:
Alright gang, I'm gunning for mass storage, around the ballpark of 1-2TB. I'm not looking to spend a lot. One of these cards is normally over $230, while the other is $100. The only differences I can discern are, one is gold the other is silver! I believe the gold one can output 4K while the silver one does full HD. I am curious though, is that the only reason for the price gap? Because if so I can spring for silver since my MiSTer device will be running on a CRT. Even the TV in my master bedroom is only 1080p. So the question becomes, is there something else I'm getting with a card that large? Perhaps faster transfer speeds? Better performance?


Any reason not to use USB storage instead for games? It's much cheaper.


Didn't even think about that lol. Now I'll have to look into pricing models a 1TB usb drive, been a while since I done that.

I really don't have a preference. So long as it will store my games library, music, documents and videos.
I use a 2TB hdd in tandem with an 8gb microsd and it's as simple as plug and play. Just make sure you place your images in the "games" folder and Mister will pick it up.

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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 6:04 pm 


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Rock Man wrote:
Bassa-Bassa wrote:
If you mean a 15kHz CRT, you can do that with a Windows PC at 240p already. With an AMD card there's CRT Emu Driver which is easy enough to set up and use. And also, it's used for Groovymame.

The only thing that sucks about that is, my PC is in the master bedroom a few feet down the hall, my CRT TV is located in the retro game room a couple of feet away from the bedroom. It would be a hassle to connect my Series X sized PC to the CRT. It's just as well I use this thing to play HD games like Mass Effect and Overwatch anyway lol. Although I do play a couple of retro games here and there such as Sonic CD and KOF on the big PC. That's why I was kind of hoping the Mister FPGA could fill that classic 15kHz, 240p space without the need for me to buy another PC for that specific old ass TV.

I can run classic titles on my monster rig sure, I just desire to have my cake and eat it to. While I have the option to run BOR and homebrews on the master rig, it be nice to be able to run a couple of 90's style games that require little resources to run (i.e. ShellShocked, Rescue Palooza, etc.) on the Mister as well. No I'm not just talking about Super Nintendo, CPS2, or NeoGeo I'm aware that the Mister can run those titles just fine. I meant games like the BOR types, Streets of Rage Remake and so fourth and so on. Running a small handful of 90s PC games would be great too. games like Last Bronx or Sonic R the PC versions, I do own the discs.


Likewise as Fudoh pointed out, I understand if the Mister can't do it. I will acknowledge I'm asking for a lot. Perhaps later down the road I will find a more powerful compact PC than the Mister, that will allow me to run those projects on 15kHz sources.

BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
If you mean a 15kHz CRT, you can do that with a Windows PC at 240p already. With an AMD card there's CRT Emu Driver which is easy enough to set up and use. And also, it's used for Groovymame.


While CRT Emu Driver isn't terribly difficult to install, the way you put it there you make it sound like it installs like any other app. That's not true. To install it, you have to enable unsigned drivers to be loaded and basically replace your modern PC GPU drivers with these custom ones.

If you use your PC for work or modern gaming, CRT Emudriver is quite a disruptive thing to install. Better to find an older PC you can use as a dedicated box for it.


Hm, thanks for pointing that out Bucko, here I'm thinking it would be a cake walk.
I've played sorr on the rpi with retropie on a crt TV fine. Perhaps you should look into what a rpi can play. They just released AM2R on it.

Mister is more about preservation of old hardware where as retropie is an os to run on the most popular sbc out there.

Btw with direct video you don't need i/I up get analog output of Mister. In fact direct video gives you better quality.

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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 6:40 pm 


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Bahn Yuki wrote:
Mister is more about preservation of old hardware where as retropie is an os to run on the most popular sbc out there.


Please stop posting misinformation. The pi runs ported emus. If the emu devs aren't trying to preserve hardware, please enlighten everyone and tell us what they *are* trying to do. MiSTer is "about" better emulation--and there are no evil, lazy, or "lesser" devs out there doing whatever it is you think they do--since you obviously think anything that isn't FPGA is not trying to preserve hardware.

Pffft...
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 7:25 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Bahn Yuki wrote:
Mister is more about preservation of old hardware where as retropie is an os to run on the most popular sbc out there.


Please stop posting misinformation. The pi runs ported emus. If the emu devs aren't trying to preserve hardware, please enlighten everyone and tell us what they *are* trying to do. MiSTer is "about" better emulation--and there are no evil, lazy, or "lesser" devs out there doing whatever it is you think they do--since you obviously think anything that isn't FPGA is not trying to preserve hardware.

Pffft...
Says it right opening statement "It builds upon Raspbian, EmulationStation, RetroArch and many other projects to enable you to play your favourite Arcade, home-console, and classic PC games with the minimum set-up. For power users it also provides a large variety of configuration tools to customise the system as you want.

RetroPie sits on top of a full OS, you can install it on an existing Raspbian, or start with the RetroPie image and add additional software later."

Don't know how it being an os is somehow misinformation. For example Sorr isn't emulation, in fact it doesn't use one line of previous code. I don't know if AM2R is the same way, but I don't think that's emulation either. Image

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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 7:50 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
since you obviously think anything that isn't FPGA is not trying to preserve hardware.


Not the user you originally replied to, but I'd say this is indeed the case in general for software emulation, which does not aim to preserve hardware, but simply functionality (and accuracy on top of that can be a separate aim along with functionality).

At the same time, FPGA-based emulation (or whatever one wishes to call it) may not necessarily try to "preserve hardware" either and simply pursue functionality/accuracy as well, but, whether intentionally or not, it does, by producing a description of parallel instructions and processes that could technically be implemented in integrated circuits, i.e. an actual recreation of the hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 8:18 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
orange808 wrote:
since you obviously think anything that isn't FPGA is not trying to preserve hardware.


Not the user you originally replied to, but I'd say this is indeed the case in general for software emulation, which does not aim to preserve hardware, but simply functionality (and accuracy on top of that can be a separate aim along with functionality).

At the same time, FPGA-based emulation (or whatever one wishes to call it) may not necessarily try to "preserve hardware" either and simply pursue functionality/accuracy as well, but, whether intentionally or not, it does, by producing a description of parallel instructions and processes that could technically be implemented in integrated circuits, i.e. an actual recreation of the hardware.


MAME, Higan, and Stella would like a word.

I don't know why I even bother. Keep blabbing.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 8:27 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
MAME, Higan, and Stella would like a word.

I don't know why I even bother. Keep blabbing.


It's not taking away from any of those amazing projects to say that. Would you be able to say what they have done to preserve hardware? That's simply not their goal, and just to be clear there's nothing wrong with that.


Last edited by fernan1234 on Sat May 01, 2021 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 8:30 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
orange808 wrote:
since you obviously think anything that isn't FPGA is not trying to preserve hardware.


Not the user you originally replied to, but I'd say this is indeed the case in general for software emulation, which does not aim to preserve hardware, but simply functionality (and accuracy on top of that can be a separate aim along with functionality).

At the same time, FPGA-based emulation (or whatever one wishes to call it) may not necessarily try to "preserve hardware" either and simply pursue functionality/accuracy as well, but, whether intentionally or not, it does, by producing a description of parallel instructions and processes that could technically be implemented in integrated circuits, i.e. an actual recreation of the hardware.


MAME, Higan, and Stella would like a word.

I don't know why I even bother. Keep blabbing.
Yes please stop. Anyhow Rock Man PM me if you need a hand. I have rpi3, rpi4 and MiSTer all connected to 15khz screens currently and don't mind helping someone out. It can get confusing all the options out there currently.

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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 9:13 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
orange808 wrote:
MAME, Higan, and Stella would like a word.

I don't know why I even bother. Keep blabbing.


It's not taking away from any of those amazing projects to say that. Would you be able to say what they have done to preserve hardware? That's simply not their goal, and just to be clear there's nothing wrong with that.


But, you are. Who the fuck do you think did all the research on these machines in the first place?

lmao Go over to atariage and tell splendidnut your bullshit story on Stella.

It's literally the first line on the mission statement here: https://higan.dev/

Here's the mission statement for Mame: https://www.mamedev.org/about.html
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 9:18 pm 



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I think we're just reading words differently. Let's move on.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 9:51 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
I think we're just reading words differently. Let's move on.


Let's not.

Higan and Mame have gotten more than their share of hate for focusing on accuracy over your ability to play warez. The main complaint from end users was that the emus didn't hit frame rate--even on premium hardware.

Now, riddle me this: what MiSTer core dares to shoot for accuracy and sacrifices frame rates down to unplayable levels? Which one demands a monster board and abandons warez gamers to make a better future?

So, what's the difference between tweaking emus to run on the pi and intentionally avoiding better hardware accuracy on the DE-10 Nano for practical and frame rate purposes? What cores break out and require extremely expensive boards to target transistor level? Zero.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 10:09 pm 



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Sorry but it's not even clear what this convo is about anymore, so you're gonna be alone in it now unless someone else decides to join instead.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 10:28 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Sorry but it's not even clear what this convo is about anymore, so you're gonna be alone in it now unless someone else decides to join instead.


It's perfectly clear. I'm not clear on why you chimed in.

MiSTer's mission is to make better "good enough" emulation and allow people to play their warez at a great price. If it was about preserving hardware, it would be targeting transistor level and running on expensive boards.

The pi's problem is that is doesn't perform as well as MiSTer. It's got nothing to do with mission statments. And, if we drill into mission statements, software emu devs have and still do a huge amount of work in properly preserving hardware.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 5:21 am 


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@Tapatalk

Copy. I'll be grabbing a 1TB micro SD at least
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:59 am 


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orange808 wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Sorry but it's not even clear what this convo is about anymore, so you're gonna be alone in it now unless someone else decides to join instead.


It's perfectly clear. I'm not clear on why you chimed in.

MiSTer's mission is to make better "good enough" emulation and allow people to play their warez at a great price. If it was about preserving hardware, it would be targeting transistor level and running on expensive boards.

The pi's problem is that is doesn't perform as well as MiSTer. It's got nothing to do with mission statments. And, if we drill into mission statements, software emu devs have and still do a huge amount of work in properly preserving hardware.
Once again... Retropie uses raspbian os for the rpi and is geared towards being a cheap pc that runs emulation and ported projects like the above mentioned Quake 3, Sorr, Bor and AM2R.

Mister, while having some Linux ports(outrun), really focuses on playing classic games as accurate as possible down to the analog video signals. Things like snac, blister and llapi, were developed for those who wanted an authentic experience.

Rockman made it clear he wanted to play pc games from the 90s and modern retro games on a crt, Mister isn't suited for that. There are better options out there (pc with crtemudriver, groovymame).

Also the benefits of fpga emulation really decreases the more recent you go. Going for a more expensive fpga might get you to dreamcast/ps2 era but at that point you're dealing with asynchronous hardware so using software emulation would not only be more viable but also less expensive.

No one here has stated that software developers were lazy or anything of the sort. You said you'd cease this preaching but yet you still are attacking people daring to help someone out. Not everyone that comes on here knows all the ins and outs of all the various hardware options that are out there, so your toxicity isn't welcome. In the end we're here just to play some games.



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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 11:29 am 


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Bahn Yuki wrote:
...

I wound up grabbing the 1TB Micro SD! For those who care Amazon is having a sale. :D

Thoughts on this baby?



A couple of reviews said it's only good for 2 months! Can anyone confirm? In the meantime I'll hunt for the Tandem.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 1:11 pm 


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Rock Man wrote:
Tandem isn't a name brand. I use an 8gb micro SD for mister files and a 2TB hard drive for the games. Hdd are much cheaper than flash memory.

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Last edited by Bahn Yuki on Sun May 02, 2021 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 1:44 pm 



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Rock Man wrote:

Um, check the seller ratings page? 55% positive in the last 12 months. It's a scam. Like practically all flash memory not bought from a reputable retailer.

I don't even think 2TB USB pens exist?


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 7:46 pm 


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Bahn Yuki wrote:
orange808 wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Sorry but it's not even clear what this convo is about anymore, so you're gonna be alone in it now unless someone else decides to join instead.


It's perfectly clear. I'm not clear on why you chimed in.

MiSTer's mission is to make better "good enough" emulation and allow people to play their warez at a great price. If it was about preserving hardware, it would be targeting transistor level and running on expensive boards.

The pi's problem is that is doesn't perform as well as MiSTer. It's got nothing to do with mission statments. And, if we drill into mission statements, software emu devs have and still do a huge amount of work in properly preserving hardware.
Once again... Retropie uses raspbian os for the rpi and is geared towards being a cheap pc that runs emulation and ported projects like the above mentioned Quake 3, Sorr, Bor and AM2R.

Mister, while having some Linux ports(outrun), really focuses on playing classic games as accurate as possible down to the analog video signals. Things like snac, blister and llapi, were developed for those who wanted an authentic experience.

Rockman made it clear he wanted to play pc games from the 90s and modern retro games on a crt, Mister isn't suited for that. There are better options out there (pc with crtemudriver, groovymame).

Also the benefits of fpga emulation really decreases the more recent you go. Going for a more expensive fpga might get you to dreamcast/ps2 era but at that point you're dealing with asynchronous hardware so using software emulation would not only be more viable but also less expensive.

No one here has stated that software developers were lazy or anything of the sort. You said you'd cease this preaching but yet you still are attacking people daring to help someone out. Not everyone that comes on here knows all the ins and outs of all the various hardware options that are out there, so your toxicity isn't welcome. In the end we're here just to play some games.



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lmao

So, the SNES isn't "asynchronous hardware"? What about Genesis? How about Atari 2600? Atari 7800?

lmao

Do you think all these 8-bit/16 bit machines just had the one main CPU, some ram, and bus connections on the board?
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:38 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Bahn Yuki wrote:
orange808 wrote:
[quote="fernan1234"]Sorry but it's not even clear what this convo is about anymore, so you're gonna be alone in it now unless someone else decides to join instead.


It's perfectly clear. I'm not clear on why you chimed in.

MiSTer's mission is to make better "good enough" emulation and allow people to play their warez at a great price. If it was about preserving hardware, it would be targeting transistor level and running on expensive boards.

The pi's problem is that is doesn't perform as well as MiSTer. It's got nothing to do with mission statments. And, if we drill into mission statements, software emu devs have and still do a huge amount of work in properly preserving hardware.
Once again... Retropie uses raspbian os for the rpi and is geared towards being a cheap pc that runs emulation and ported projects like the above mentioned Quake 3, Sorr, Bor and AM2R.

Mister, while having some Linux ports(outrun), really focuses on playing classic games as accurate as possible down to the analog video signals. Things like snac, blister and llapi, were developed for those who wanted an authentic experience.

Rockman made it clear he wanted to play pc games from the 90s and modern retro games on a crt, Mister isn't suited for that. There are better options out there (pc with crtemudriver, groovymame).

Also the benefits of fpga emulation really decreases the more recent you go. Going for a more expensive fpga might get you to dreamcast/ps2 era but at that point you're dealing with asynchronous hardware so using software emulation would not only be more viable but also less expensive.

No one here has stated that software developers were lazy or anything of the sort. You said you'd cease this preaching but yet you still are attacking people daring to help someone out. Not everyone that comes on here knows all the ins and outs of all the various hardware options that are out there, so your toxicity isn't welcome. In the end we're here just to play some games.



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Never said that, you keep making assumptions. Older hardware required to have all the components in sync with each other. More modern setups allowed you to put instructions into queues to work asynchronously. Hence why the benefits of fpga diminish the more complex machines you get.
I'm not really sure why you're arguing this. You're not listening to what we are saying and it is derailing this thread.

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Last edited by Bahn Yuki on Sun May 02, 2021 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:02 pm 


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Bahn Yuki wrote:
I'm not really sure why you're arguing this.


Because, you keep posting misinformation.

I'm poking at an Atari kernel right now. It's damnedest thing. It's been happening for years. :-) I can't get updates to TIA for every color clock. Now, why is that? Could it be that the TIA is running at a different speed than the 6507? If I theoretically over clock the CPU to remedy the issue, everything falls apart and it won't boot. Could it be that RIOT isn't fast enough to keep up?

It affects everything. Even when I strobe to reposition objects, I have to use the motion register for fine positioning, because my initial strobe is so coarse. Those motion registers are there because it was always understood that everything is running at a different speed.

You really don't need any experience hacking away at code, tho. Wanna test your SNES? Easy. Sunsoft's SNES Batman beat 'em up is notorious for crashing. Now, when it crashes, did ya ever notice the music does not stop? Crash a game with a Game Genie code. Notice how the music doesn't stop? Why is that?
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:20 am 


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Editing after a reply is a weasel move, Yuki.

It's also my understanding that Genny sound relies on the programmer to count cycles and remain synced up. So, ya know, edit your post again.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:10 am 


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ZellSF wrote:
Rock Man wrote:

Um, check the seller ratings page? 55% positive in the last 12 months. It's a scam. Like practically all flash memory not bought from a reputable retailer.

I don't even think 2TB USB pens exist?

Ah-hah! Those bastards. Thanks! I'll steer clear.

Bahn Yuki wrote:
Rock Man wrote:
Tandem isn't a name brand. I use an 8gb micro SD for mister files and a 2TB hard drive for the games. Hdd are much cheaper than flash memory.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Think I got a 1TB HDD lying around inside an enclosure, I'll look for it. Appreciate the tips!
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 5:02 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Editing after a reply is a weasel move, Yuki.

It's also my understanding that Genny sound relies on the programmer to count cycles and remain synced up. So, ya know, edit your post again.
I edited due to the formatting of the quote. It was a all jumbled together. I get you love the rpi/retropie but your over zealous reactions and responses make me wonder how sincere you are.

I'm ignoring you from now on. You aren't trying to have a civil discussion and personally I think you should get some help. You're just another example why this place could really use some moderation.

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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 5:03 pm 


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Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 181
Location: Salem OR
Rock Man wrote:
ZellSF wrote:
Rock Man wrote:

Um, check the seller ratings page? 55% positive in the last 12 months. It's a scam. Like practically all flash memory not bought from a reputable retailer.

I don't even think 2TB USB pens exist?

Ah-hah! Those bastards. Thanks! I'll steer clear.

[quote="Bahn Yuki wrote:
Rock Man wrote:
Tandem isn't a name brand. I use an 8gb micro SD for mister files and a 2TB hard drive for the games. Hdd are much cheaper than flash memory.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Think I got a 1TB HDD lying around inside an enclosure, I'll look for it. Appreciate the tips![/quote]Good luck, it's very simple to set up. I formatted my drive for exfat and haven't had any issues.

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Displays I currently own:
LG 77C1(OLED),TCL 75R635(MiniLED),Apple Studio Monitor 21(PCCRT),JVC I'Art 36(SDCRT),SONY 34XBR960x3(HDCRT),CH-15DXA(TVL800)
CH-17DXA(TVL800),Samsung UBJ590(LED),Panasonic P50VT20(Plasma),JVC RS400(LCoS),Optoma27HDR(DLP)


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:11 pm 


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Posts: 2184
Bahn Yuki wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Editing after a reply is a weasel move, Yuki.

It's also my understanding that Genny sound relies on the programmer to count cycles and remain synced up. So, ya know, edit your post again.
I edited due to the formatting of the quote. It was a all jumbled together. I get you love the rpi/retropie but your over zealous reactions and responses make me wonder how sincere you are.

I'm ignoring you from now on. You aren't trying to have a civil discussion and personally I think you should get some help. You're just another example why this place could really use some moderation.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


You changed the wording in your post and you just lied about it. That's not really civil.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:19 pm 


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I could really give a shit about the emulation debate but I stand in solidarity with fellow sam n max PFPs by default


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:30 am 


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Posts: 387
Location: Southtown
Bahn Yuki wrote:
Good luck, it's very simple to set up. I formatted my drive for exfat and haven't had any issues.

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What you think of this one?

https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Portable ... r=1-5&th=1
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:15 am 


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Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 181
Location: Salem OR
Rock Man wrote:
Bahn Yuki wrote:
Good luck, it's very simple to set up. I formatted my drive for exfat and haven't had any issues.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

What you think of this one?

https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Portable ... r=1-5&th=1
Seems alright. I use a seagate myself. There's a software out there so you can lengthen the time for spin down. I have mine set to 30 minutes

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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Displays I currently own:
LG 77C1(OLED),TCL 75R635(MiniLED),Apple Studio Monitor 21(PCCRT),JVC I'Art 36(SDCRT),SONY 34XBR960x3(HDCRT),CH-15DXA(TVL800)
CH-17DXA(TVL800),Samsung UBJ590(LED),Panasonic P50VT20(Plasma),JVC RS400(LCoS),Optoma27HDR(DLP)


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