Capture Low Res DOS Games from a real PC

[Mendion]

Hi.


I've been searching for a while and I can't find an anwer to this.

I have an old PC for the only purpose to play DOS Games on it. I have installed MS-DOS 6.22 on that PC and I play a lot of games that are BELOW 640x480 resolution.

I want to capture the VGA output of that PC and try to upscale it to a HD resolution.


For the upscaling, I have a Framemeister. I also have a VGA to SCART cable that I use for a PC that outputs 15 khz. RGB video. I have that PC hooked up to a PVM Monitor, for playing MAME games.
For capturing video, I have a elgato HD60 PRO.

Is there a way for me to capture a 320x200 or a 320x240 game or also the typical DOS text mode screen (720x400)? If I need some kind of hardware to achieve that, I would want to know what it is exactly.


Thanks!

[nmalinoski]

I'm not sure that there's much in the way of contemporary capture devices that will accept resolutions that low, and you're going to need an RGB interface to convert RGBHV from the PC to RGBS for the Framemeister (assuming it will support those video modes), or get a different scaling solution that accepts VGA natively, like the OSSC.

I don't recall what the OSSC specifically has in terms of support for legacy PCs, but there was a 640x400 preset added in firmware 0.81. It may just treat the 200-line resolutions as 240p; someone with more experience would have to clarify. Maybe if I get some free time this weekend, I can pull my old Socket A system out of the garage and try this for myself.

[orange808]

Get a Kramer, TVOne, or Extron scaler and be done with it.

[Fudoh]

320x200 MCGA/VGA titles are output in 400p by default anyway.

The more important question here is whether you want to capture that output in it's original 70Hz refresh rate or do you want it converted to 60Hz during capture already ?

[Mendion]

320x200 MCGA/VGA titles are output in 400p by default anyway.

The more important question here is whether you want to capture that output in it's original 70Hz refresh rate or do you want it converted to 60Hz during capture already ?

Good question.

My idea is to capture games to upload gameplays to Youtube. I'm planning on spliting the VGA signal: One going to a normal SVGA monitor, the other going to the capture card.

What are the pros/cons of converting 70 hz to 60 hz?


I still don't have very clear on how to make a signal the framemeister can accept. I know that I have to convert RGBHV to RGBS. Will the Framemeister accept a 720x400 resolution RGBS signal?

I'm a bit confused here, sorry if what I'm saying doesn't make sense at all.

[nmalinoski]

What are the pros/cons of converting 70 hz to 60 hz?

Basically boils down to 60Hz being required to stream and to view on many contemporary TVs at the expense of every 7th frame or so being dropped, causing minute stutter; might not even notice.

[Mendion]

What are the pros/cons of converting 70 hz to 60 hz?

Basically boils down to 60Hz being required to stream and to view on many contemporary TVs at the expense of every 7th frame or so being dropped, causing minute stutter; might not even notice.

Cool, does not matter then...

Now, the other things I don't have clear: just converting RGBHV to RGBS is the only thing I need to be able to input that signal to my framemeister? Does the Framemeister accept 31 Khz? I can't find that info anywhere!

[Fudoh]

The FM does accept 31khz RGB if you convert from RGBHV to RGBs beforehand. Unfortunately I don't recall if 70Hz caused a problem. For RGBHV to RGBs conversion you would use an Extron RGB interface.

The FM's quality for 31khz upscaling isn't great though and I would argue that you would be better off using a different processor. Of course depending on how important this project is to. For $70-90 you can usually get an Extron RGB-DVI 300 (or a RGB-HDMI 300 for a little more). These give you fantastic upscaling quality for VGA sources and will provide you with a brilliant (digital and compatible) 1080p60 signal for your capturing needs.

[Mendion]

The FM does accept 31khz RGB if you convert from RGBHV to RGBs beforehand. Unfortunately I don't recall if 70Hz caused a problem. For RGBHV to RGBs conversion you would use an Extron RGB interface.

The FM's quality for 31khz upscaling isn't great though and I would argue that you would be better off using a different processor. Of course depending on how important this project is to. For $70-90 you can usually get an Extron RGB-DVI 300 (or a RGB-HDMI 300 for a little more). These give you fantastic upscaling quality for VGA sources and will provide you with a brilliant (digital and compatible) 1080p60 signal for your capturing needs.

Well, that's the info I needed!

I searched a bit for both units, it seems that new units are not sold anymore? On the Extron official page you can't buy them. I saw units on ebay, but a lot are used and new ones are REALLY expensive.

[Fudoh]

yes, that's right. I think original pricing was around $1400 for these.

[maxtherabbit]

The FM does accept 31khz RGB if you convert from RGBHV to RGBs beforehand. Unfortunately I don't recall if 70Hz caused a problem. For RGBHV to RGBs conversion you would use an Extron RGB interface.

The FM's quality for 31khz upscaling isn't great though and I would argue that you would be better off using a different processor. Of course depending on how important this project is to. For $70-90 you can usually get an Extron RGB-DVI 300 (or a RGB-HDMI 300 for a little more). These give you fantastic upscaling quality for VGA sources and will provide you with a brilliant (digital and compatible) 1080p60 signal for your capturing needs.

Is the lag low enough on these for it to be viable to actually use them to play?

[Fudoh]

one frame.

[maxtherabbit]

not bad at all... does it do temporal interpolation or just drop every 7th frame for 70Hz?

[Mendion]

Unfortunately, there are very few units on ebay for both Extron RGB-DVI 300 or RGB-HDMI 300. The cheapest ones does not include the power supply (and I can see that has a propietary connector).

Are there alternatives from other brands?


Are there any other ways to achieve capturing Low Res games from a real PC (using another equipment, using soft 15 and then using a "normal" RGB cable, etc)

[maxtherabbit]

Unfortunately, there are very few units on ebay for both Extron RGB-DVI 300 or RGB-HDMI 300. The cheapest ones does not include the power supply (and I can see that has a propietary connector).

Are there alternatives from other brands?


Are there any other ways to achieve capturing Low Res games from a real PC (using another equipment, using soft 15 and then using a "normal" RGB cable, etc)

it's not proprietary - it's a very well labeled and documented phoenix connector

[Fudoh]

Are there any other ways to achieve capturing Low Res games from a real PC (using another equipment, using soft 15 and then using a "normal" RGB cable, etc)

many, but believe me: you won't fine the same picture quality anywhere else. Don't be afraid of a missing PSU. Extron switched to system wide identical connectors many years ago, so you can use almost any standad 12V PSU. The connectors are easily available as screw (= solderless) terminals.

[Mendion]

Are there any other ways to achieve capturing Low Res games from a real PC (using another equipment, using soft 15 and then using a "normal" RGB cable, etc)

many, but believe me: you won't fine the same picture quality anywhere else. Don't be afraid of a missing PSU. Extron switched to system wide identical connectors many years ago, so you can use almost any standad 12V PSU. The connectors are easily available as screw (= solderless) terminals.

Thanks you for all your help, Fudoh!

Since I live in Argentina, if I'm lucky, I'm traveling to USA next month for work reasons. If there is an available unit to purchase on the date that I travel, for 50 bucks or so, I surely grab one of those.

[Mendion]

I just found out someone who is using this one: Atlona AT-HD500

https://atlona.com/product/at-hd500/


Do someone knows how it performs?

[Fudoh]

I have this one as well. It does what it's supposed to do, but quality isn't anywhere near the Extron.

[nick_arrow]

I have read this thread and found the topic interesting.
Is the Extron RGB-DVI 300 or RGB-HDMI 300 still considering the best option for this purpose?
So when it comes to capture old MS-DOS games, do you connect the retro computer into the
RGB input of the Extron and then output the signal from the DVI or HDMI source where the capture card is located?

Hope you found a solution for you wishes Mendion!

[Fudoh]

Still excellent, yes. If a DSC 301 is close in price you pick that one instead - same funtionality plus a HDMI input in case you're using a newer PC.

[ldeveraux]

Wouldn't it make more sense to play those old games in either DOSbox or ScummVM on a modern computer? Easier to get working and much easier to capture video.

[nick_arrow]

Still excellent, yes. If a DSC 301 is close in price you pick that one instead - same funtionality plus a HDMI input in case you're using a newer PC.

Would this device works better than a Framemeister? Do you know if it drops signal or have other issues like combing artifacts?

[maxtherabbit]

Wouldn't it make more sense to play those old games in either DOSbox or ScummVM on a modern computer? Easier to get working and much easier to capture video.

just use a rpi bro it's the same thing

[Fudoh]

since when do we - here on this particular forum - keep people from using original hardware? Of course there are hundred ways that are easier than capturing from a old vintage PC, but then again, it's still easier (and cheaper) than capturing from most vintage console systems.

FM isn't so great with 31khz sources, so yes, a DSC301 looks considerably better.

[ldeveraux]

since when do we - here on this particular forum - keep people from using original hardware? Of course there are hundred ways that are easier than capturing from a old vintage PC, but then again, it's still easier (and cheaper) than capturing from most vintage console systems.

Since you refuse to quote, I assume this was directed at me? I'm not trying to keep anybody from doing anything, just suggesting what I think is the far easier solution, just like you're doing. I understand playing a cartridge on a console it was designed for, it's an fully encompassing solution as far as media goes. But even getting an old PC up and running properly without flaws is far less trivial than a plug and play console. He's already got the capture card installed in a PC since it's PCIE, it's just more straight forward to play those games on that PC.

[NightSprinter]

Still many quirks regarding DOS hardware that DOSbox does not emulate, and 86box still can have hefty system requirements (due to EVERYTHING being done in software). In terms of capture cards, a used Datapath VisionRGB-E1S/E2S can be had on eBay for under $200 in some cases, or with an active HDMI converter, Magewel has both USB and PCIe capture devices starting from $300 up depending on features desired.

I know with the Datapath cards, you would need to look into software to make adjustment easier (and in this case, an alias for all Mode13h screens to function without loading up a preset every time). Either RetroRGB or Cloudschatze had a blog post or two about how to do VGA capture with a Datapath card.

[ldeveraux]

Still many quirks regarding DOS hardware that DOSbox does not emulate, and 86box still can have hefty system requirements (due to EVERYTHING being done in software). In terms of capture cards, a used Datapath VisionRGB-E1S/E2S can be had on eBay for under $200 in some cases, or with an active HDMI converter, Magewel has both USB and PCIe capture devices starting from $300 up depending on features desired.

I know with the Datapath cards, you would need to look into software to make adjustment easier (and in this case, an alias for all Mode13h screens to function without loading up a preset every time). Either RetroRGB or Cloudschatze had a blog post or two about how to do VGA capture with a Datapath card.

What?

[Austin]

It's actually good timing that this thread was bumped again. I'm still rocking a FM and have been looking for other ways to capture MS-DOS (and retro PC stuff in general). I still have a Datapath E1S, but since getting their VisionLC-HD2 HDMI card, I had to rip the E1S out of my main workstation due to driver conflicts. I slapped it in a secondary stream/recording PC, but it's more cumbersome having to bring that out when I want to record my retro PC setups.

I've been wanting to get something new so I can have both capture setups on the same workstation, but also don't want to pay an arm and a leg as I've already got enough invested in my main workstation's capture setup. I went ahead just now and grabbed one of the suggested RGB-DVI 300 boxes on eBay for about $40. If I can just run that into my FM, which then routes to my HDMI capture card, then that will be ideal. The HDMI ones are more appealing for my current setup, but the cheapest is $100. Will report back when I try out the DVI version.

[Fudoh]

but since getting their VisionLC-HD2 HDMI card

I got the same card in one of my capture PCs. What application do you use for capture? The LD-HD2 does not have a frame buffer, so it can't flip the image in the driver as the E1S can. As a result captures in Amarec and other apps are flipped upside down.

I used the RGB-DVI 300 for my DC for quite a few years. Aside from the fact that you have handle audio "seperately" it's still a great box. You don't really have to route the signal through the FM just to get audio muxed into the signal. In your capture app (whatever it is) you should be able to grab video from teh Datapath and audio from a seperate analogue input on your PC.