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 Post subject: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:47 am 


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Joined: 01 Sep 2010
Posts: 125
Anyone heard of that ? It's been released in partnership with Limited Run.

Pound Technology PS2 HDMI Cable

Quick Start Guide

480i is the ugly resolution on modern displays and I wonder if this cable can bring an improvement over the OSSC for instance... But I have some doubts... (and could not find a real tech sheet...)

The pictures on their quick start guide are rather blurry, and I don't expect a miracle as they say that all games will be forced to 480i and then upsampled to 720p...


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:52 am 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
Posts: 2362
It's adding an unnecessary scaling step.

480i > 720 > 1080p / 4K (whichever your display is)
vs
480i > 1080p / 4K

Should only be used if your display handles 480i very, very badly and you need a very cheap workaround.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:51 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1755
The equivalent cables for the Xbox and Dreamcast have not been reviewed well. If it's anything like its predecessors, its form factor will be convenient, but image quality will be meh.

What ZellSF said is clearly stated in the quick start guide. Forcing all output to 720p is going to be ugly. 240p content might look okay, but the vast majority of PS2 games are 480i (the guide even says this), and 480i not only looks bad, even when bob-deinterlaced, it doesn't evenly scale to 720p.

What's worse is that this guide clearly states "Game titles that have the option of playing in higher resolutions will be forced to 480i and upsampled to 720p"; so, even more unnecessarily, it will take games outputting in 480p, 720p, and 1080i, scale those down to 480i, and then rescaled to 720p. WTF.

Based on the quick start guide alone, I wouldn't recommend this to anyone. What the hell are they thinking?


A PS2 HDMI solution clearly needs the ability to scale and deinterlace (optionally, of course), but it needs to do it smartly. I'd want something that works like the UltraHDMI, in that you have the options of it outputting either the default of a forced, scaled resolution (480p/720p/1080p), which has the benefit of surviving video mode changes without dropping sync[!], or the native resolution (direct mode).

Considering the capabilities of the PS2, what I'd also like to see, and what I'd personally use, in an HDMI solution like that would be a hybrid mode that would scale 240p and deinterlace 480i to 480p, just like the UltraHDMI does now; passes-through 480p and 720p; and deinterlaces 1080i. To my knowledge, games that switch to higher-resolution video modes will stay in those higher resolutions once switched, so I don't think it would be necessary to forcibly scale them in order to survive mode switches, like we'd need to with 240p/480i games.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:39 pm 


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Pound tech is always beating us to the punch. First DC. and now this :wink:


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/428604527478833154/501514448263970826/image0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KXzNf9V.png


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:05 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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citrus3000psi wrote:

There are those miniature PS2 to HDMI adapters that beat Pound to the punch, but neither those nor Pound's cable are digital-to-digital like the DC HDMI, or whatever you've got cooking for the PS2.

And speaking of your secret PS2 HDMI project (and at the risk of derailing this thread), if it's an internal mod and it taps RGB, would it also be compatible with the PlayStation/PSone?


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:03 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
citrus3000psi wrote:

There are those miniature PS2 to HDMI adapters that beat Pound to the punch, but neither those nor Pound's cable are digital-to-digital like the DC HDMI, or whatever you've got cooking for the PS2.

And speaking of your secret PS2 HDMI project (and at the risk of derailing this thread), if it's an internal mod and it taps RGB, would it also be compatible with the PlayStation/PSone?


I was just throwing out some sarcasm. Different products for different folks.

Yes the principal of the design should also fit into the ps1. If the ps2 does happen then I'm sure ps1 will be next target. We are still very much in the early stages. Like really early stages. Lets not derail this thread anymore 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:51 am 


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citrus3000psi wrote:
Lets not derail this thread anymore 8)


It's not like this thread deserves a long life either.

This Pound cable seems like a really lazy design, targeted at people used to plug and play...
But gamers still trying to play games on original hardware care about the result, and this is far from delivering a good solution.

People doing a little search about this device will now know to avoid it.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:28 am 


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The Pound cable is made to be compatible with PS1 hardware.
That makes it trickier to support 480p PS2 games, which use sync-on-green in RGB.

If this were just a PS2 cable it'd probably be better off as component to HDMI


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:53 pm 



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theclaw wrote:
The Pound cable is made to be compatible with PS1 hardware.
That makes it trickier to support 480p PS2 games, which use sync-on-green in RGB.

Not really. It's easy to determine between RGBS and RGsB; you just need to listen for sync on the separate sync pin and fall back to green when it's absent. If you want to be lazy about it, you don't even have to strip sync from green before passing it to the processor. Then all you need is a processor that can properly line-double 240p and can deinterlace up to 1080i.

Sure, it requires a few extra components, as does ensuring proper cross-compatibility between the PS1 and PS2, but neither is significantly complicated to implement.

And compatibility with the PS1 is absolutely no excuse for forcibly downscaling every ED and HD resolution to 480i and then upscaling that to 720p. Any cable appropriately designed for the PS2, that uses RGB and accommodates for the differences in cable components between the PS1 and PS2, would support the PS1 by default.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:35 pm 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 170
there's no easy solution for the PS2 thanks to 480i
you have to compromise way too much quality for a practical and easy solution like this or the dreaded hdmi adapter

only a good line doubler or real deinterlacer machine (plus component cables) would be acceptable for most people who are looking for the best video quality possible

Xbox isnt as difficult because there's an official VGA cable
Gamecube has the HDMI adapter/mod
The PS2? Nothing like that.

However, it's pretty godlike for PS1 games if you're using component cables, but again, you'd need another machine to properly process and upscale 240p


What a difficult console... lol


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:55 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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tongshadow wrote:
Xbox isnt as difficult because there's an official VGA cable

This isn't accurate. The original Xbox doesn't support VGA (as in RGBHV) without a hard mod; the only way to get 480p+ out of an unmodded original Xbox is using YPbPr component, and the best you'll get out of it with an RGB SCART cable is 480i/576i. The Xbox 360, on the other hand, did end up with an official VGA cable.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:47 pm 



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Never said the Xbox did support VGA out of the box, just that an "official" VGA solution did exist in the form of a transcoder box. It's called X2VGA Neoya, and nope, it doesn't require a modded Xbox. Pic:
Image

I think the main question here is: How easily can you connect either of those consoles into a modern display (D-SUB/HDMI inputs only) without losing quality? And so far it seems like such thing doesnt exist for the PS2... yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:12 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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tongshadow wrote:
Never said the Xbox did support VGA out of the box, just that an "official" VGA solution did exist in the form of a transcoder box. It's called X2VGA Neoya, and nope, it doesn't require a modded Xbox.

The X2VGA is not official in any capacity; it's a third party solution (wasn't able to find any indication that it was licensed), and it doesn't actually get RGB out of the console. Being a transcoder, it's not going to be any different than hooking up the console to a standalone RGB decoder, and it's just as unavailable, with the added negative that you can't readily use it to transcode YPbPr from other consoles.

tongshadow wrote:
I think the main question here is: How easily can you connect either of those consoles into a modern display (D-SUB/HDMI inputs only) without losing quality? And so far it seems like such thing doesnt exist for the PS2... yet.

Kind of depends on what your threshold for modification of the video signals constitutes "loss of quality"; simply converting the digital RGB/YCbCr to analogue could qualify, in which case, out of the three consoles mentioned, only the GameCube (and then only the first generation) can support lossless video to an HDMI display. (And, of course, good luck displaying non-square pixels on a fixed-pixel display.)

But there are analogue-to-digital solutions for the other two. Not cheap ones, but they exist. If you have no need for ED/HD video modes, get a good-quality component cable (first-party Sony, HD Retrovision) and a RetroTINK 2X. If you need ED/HD resolutions, you'll need to expand your budget for an OSSC, Framemeister, or a unicorn scaler; and, if your display won't take 480i over HDMI, and you can deal with the added lag, the Framemeister and unicorn scalers should be able to deinterlace nicely.

In addition, you might be able to play ED/HD PS2 games on a PC monitor. The Dell U2412M, for example, supports sync-on-green and 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p; so, you should be good as long as you have the right cable and instructions on how to blindly enable progressive scan modes for a given game. (Confusingly, the manual for this monitor says its minimum supported horizontal scan rate is 30kHz, but it also advertises support for 576i; if this isn't a typo, this monitor might also support 480i, but I wouldn't count on that nor 240p support.)

While I'm sure an external version could be produced, really, the only thing that's going to get you lossless output from an Xbox or PS2 for modern displays will be a GCVideo- or UltraHDMI-like internal HDMI mod.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:01 am 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
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After posting about this I remembered LRG has high shipping costs (like 15$), so you should actually be able to buy a component to HDMI 1080p scaler and PS2 component cables from eBay for cheaper, it will be more flexible and you'll probably have better image quality.

There really isn't any reason to buy this product at all.
tongshadow wrote:
I think the main question here is: How easily can you connect either of those consoles into a modern display (D-SUB/HDMI inputs only) without losing quality? And so far it seems like such thing doesnt exist for the PS2... yet.

Huh? PS2 component cables are just as high quality as any Xbox VGA transcoder.

I'm guessing you're implying letting the display do deinterlacing counts as a quality loss, but then the Xbox VGA solution would also have quality loss because it's letting the display upscale from 480p to 1080p.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:02 pm 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 170
ZellSF wrote:
Huh? PS2 component cables are just as high quality as any Xbox VGA transcoder.

I'm guessing you're implying letting the display do deinterlacing counts as a quality loss, but then the Xbox VGA solution would also have quality loss because it's letting the display upscale from 480p to 1080p.

Dealing with the Xbox's 480p is far, far less troublesome than the PS2's 480i since most displays/transcoders can scale and handle 480p just fine. And because that VGA Box thing was made with the Xbox in mind you're less likely to run into issues. The thing is, that device is too rare. But at least it exists! And like I said, find me a modern low-lag LCD/LED display with component inputs.
But yea, about the quality loss thing...

No, I'm talking about basic things like not having blacks crushed, color artifacts on blacks, proper 480i recognition through component (some low quality transcoders see 480i as progressive and you get a really broken picture), and lag.

Trust me, I've been through all these shit adapters/transcoders and so far only real solutions, like dedicated video processors, gave me the best results in all aspects. But are they practical to carry around? Heck no, the VP30 is just massive and the XRGB-3, while relatively compact, is extremely picky on most TVs (and not really worth on displays without VGA input because of *reasons*).


@nmalinoski
Retrotink 2X doesnt even support 480p input (cant even passthrough), so it's automatically disqualified for Xbox. I think it's an ok machine for the PS2, but for $100? I'd rather save a little more for a better solution, personally.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:45 pm 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
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tongshadow wrote:
ZellSF wrote:
Huh? PS2 component cables are just as high quality as any Xbox VGA transcoder.

I'm guessing you're implying letting the display do deinterlacing counts as a quality loss, but then the Xbox VGA solution would also have quality loss because it's letting the display upscale from 480p to 1080p.

Dealing with the Xbox's 480p is far, far less troublesome than the PS2's 480i since most displays/transcoders can scale and handle 480p just fine. And because that VGA Box thing was made with the Xbox in mind you're less likely to run into issues. The thing is, that device is too rare. But at least it exists! And like I said, find me a modern low-lag LCD/LED display with component inputs.
But yea, about the quality loss thing...

No, I'm talking about basic things like not having blacks crushed, color artifacts on blacks, proper 480i recognition through component (some low quality transcoders see 480i as progressive and you get a really broken picture), and lag.

Trust me, I've been through all these shit adapters/transcoders and so far only real solutions, like dedicated video processors, gave me the best results in all aspects. But are they practical to carry around? Heck no, the VP30 is just massive and the XRGB-3, while relatively compact, is extremely picky on most TVs (and not really worth on displays without VGA input because of *reasons*).


@nmalinoski
Retrotink 2X doesnt even support 480p input (cant even passthrough), so it's automatically disqualified for Xbox. I think it's an ok machine for the PS2, but for $100? I'd rather save a little more for a better solution, personally.

You need a display capable of 480i for a PS2, sure, but I don't think that's a big ask, for a gaming console that's supposed to connect to a TV. Then you can get a transcoder and avoid most of the issues you mentioned. Plus, you know, a good transcoder would also be a better solution for your Xbox (because with that VGA box thing you're transcoding analog>analog>digital when you could just go straight analog>digital).

If your display doesn't support 480i then sure you need a deinterlacer, but there's perfectly usable options out there already, why would someone create a specialized PS2 device to compete?


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:01 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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tongshadow wrote:
Dealing with the Xbox's 480p is far, far less troublesome than the PS2's 480i since most displays/transcoders can scale and handle 480p just fine. And because that VGA Box thing was made with the Xbox in mind you're less likely to run into issues. The thing is, that device is too rare. But at least it exists!

The Xbox is kind of like the Dreamcast, in that the vast majority of games do support 480p, but there are sadly still a selection of games that do not support 480p, and still a handful that do not behave well when forced to display 480p. One fun instance is 007: Agent Under Fire, which, according to Wikipedia, uses 480i for shooting stages and 480p for driving stages, so now there's mode switching in play.

And the simple fact that the X2VGA exists is not enough to be of use to anyone. Wu-Tang's Once Upon a Time in Shaolin exists, but there's only the one copy; good luck getting a listen.

tongshadow wrote:
Trust me, I've been through all these shit adapters/transcoders and so far only real solutions, like dedicated video processors, gave me the best results in all aspects. But are they practical to carry around? Heck no, the VP30 is just massive and the XRGB-3, while relatively compact, is extremely picky on most TVs (and not really worth on displays without VGA input because of *reasons*).

Of course they're not practical to carry around--none of this AV equipment is, nor is the PS2; it's not a mobile system; and, as far as I can tell, portability in this regard is not a widespread use case. Why bring this up now?

If you want to bring a PS2 or an Xbox to someone else's house, or with you on vacation, you're absolutely right, it's impractical to carry around additional AV equipment (maybe not so much an OSSC or a Framemeister if you're using YPbPr); but then the solution is an internal HDMI mod, like the UltraHDMI. With something like that, you can toss your console, a couple controllers, and HDMI and power cables into a bag and go.

I've done this with my N64. Prior to getting an UltraHDMI, I wouldn't have bothered bringing my N64 anywhere, because I'd have needed my rackmount Kramer FC-4044 (to decode YC to YPbPr) and my OSSC, which means I'd need to partially tear apart my living room setup; and I'd still run into the possibility that it wouldn't work on whatever TV I end up using.

tongshadow wrote:
@nmalinoski
Retrotink 2X doesnt even support 480p input (cant even passthrough), so it's automatically disqualified for Xbox. I think it's an ok machine for the PS2, but for $100? I'd rather save a little more for a better solution, personally.

You're right; it doesn't support 480p, and I said as much in my suggestion for it. If you need 480p or better and compatibility with the Xbox and PS2, you're going to need an OSSC, or perhaps a Framemeister and a 3x RCA to D-Terminal adapter.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:38 pm 



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ZellSF wrote:
If your display doesn't support 480i then sure you need a deinterlacer, but there's perfectly usable options out there already, why would someone create a specialized PS2 device to compete?

Could you name a few? Remember, for the highest quality possible, and not just to connect into a display and get a picture. And by quality I mean: no weird artifacts/noise, no crushed blacks, no improper 480i/480p handling and low lag.

They do exist actually, but I'm sure they're not exactly cheap. The Framemeister is one of the few I could name to fulfill those requirements.

nmalinoski wrote:
And the simple fact that the X2VGA exists is not enough to be of use to anyone. Wu-Tang's Once Upon a Time in Shaolin exists, but there's only the one copy; good luck getting a listen.

Oh dont worry, I'd say it's as rare as good Dreamcast VGA Boxes. Before someone came up with their own solutions for the Dreamcast (Akura boxes), you really had to hunt down those boxes for the best quality off the Dreamcast without modding.

If only there was such a thing for the Xbox/PS2... :(


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:58 am 



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tongshadow wrote:
ZellSF wrote:
If your display doesn't support 480i then sure you need a deinterlacer, but there's perfectly usable options out there already, why would someone create a specialized PS2 device to compete?

Could you name a few? Remember, for the highest quality possible, and not just to connect into a display and get a picture. And by quality I mean: no weird artifacts/noise, no crushed blacks, no improper 480i/480p handling and low lag.

They do exist actually, but I'm sure they're not exactly cheap. The Framemeister is one of the few I could name to fulfill those requirements.

The Framemeister fullfills those requirements? Really? 25ms of input lag and weird flickering in solid color areas? If you're that insensitive to lag and artifacts finding something that fits your requirements might be easy, however I'm not going to since I personally never needed one: I have transcoders as all my displays handle 480i just fine.

It's fairly unusual to hook up a PS2 to a display that doesn't handle 480i, which is why there isn't a huge market for a PS2-specific integrated deinterlacer solution. That and there's no objective right way to deinterlace all content, so for it to be perfect it would have to offer (expensive) options that if anyone were looking into developing such a solution, they would put it in an external non-hardware specific scaler box.

And they would want to make their money back, so no even if a solution existed it would never be cheap, because the source (PS2 480i) requires extensive processing on modern displays. Which for most users the displays usually do.

You already have options to connect a PS2 with perfect quality to most modern displays. You want to connect it to display types it was never meant for, without spending much money on it, with perfect quality while also maintaining portability.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:09 pm 


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Besides I don't know what a PS2 dedicated solution could offer that'd outweigh inability to also improve 480i Xbox and GC games.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:46 pm 



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ZellSF wrote:
The Framemeister fullfills those requirements? Really? 25ms of input lag and weird flickering in solid color areas? If you're that insensitive to lag and artifacts finding something that fits your requirements might be easy, however I'm not going to since I personally never needed one: I have transcoders as all my displays handle 480i just fine.

Yes, it's like 25ms (1.5frames of lag@60hz) but it does proper deinterlacing that makes the picture look like 480p without none of the common issues you see in generic/internal deinterlacers, like combing or excessive flicker. The only other device that comes close is the VP30 ABT102 with GM2. Low lag solutions like the OSSC (and VP30 GM1) uses bob deinterlacing, that produces some flickering but it's nowhere as noticeable as cheaper solutions.

I'm actually pretty sensitive when it comes to lag, most PS2 games I play require precise timings (Onimusha, DMC3, platformers, fighting games) and so far the XRGB-3 is serving me quite well, very low lag solution (2ms) with rather decent picture quality (flicker is virtually unnoticeable@480i). And I assure it wasnt easy to find such solution.

So yea, being sensitive to lag and also a videophile sucks (and it's costly).

ZellSF wrote:
And they would want to make their money back, so no even if a solution existed it would never be cheap, because the source (PS2 480i) requires extensive processing on modern displays. Which for most users the displays usually do.

You already have options to connect a PS2 with perfect quality to most modern displays. You want to connect it to display types it was never meant for, without spending much money on it, with perfect quality while also maintaining portability.

To be honest, I dont know how hard or costly would be to implement a PS2 HDMI solution similar to the Gamecube GCVideo, only modders like citrus could answer that.

But even if it was expensive, I'm sure there would be people willing to pay for a perfect and easy solution for the PS2. I mean cmon, have you seen all the trouble people go just to get RGB out of a NES? :mrgreen:

theclaw wrote:
Besides I don't know what a PS2 dedicated solution could offer that'd outweigh inability to also improve 480i Xbox and GC games.

Not sure if I got your message, but 480i is virtually irrelevant for these machines considering majority of their games run at 480p, and "easy and proper" solutions for those consoles already exist somewhat.
It would be a thing just for the PS2, a mod like the GCVideo for the Gamecube.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:15 pm 


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I've spent a bit of time around the A/V side of the Xbox, and don't remember seeing that VGA transcoder box. That isn't meaningful, but then again, the fact that it is designed "specifically" for the Xbox doesn't inspire great confidence in me, either. After all, this entire thread is about a "solution" supposedly engineered with the PS2 in mind.

It all comes down to the evidence. Is there any testimony about how that VGA box performs? Personally, I'm with the other folks who are saying I don't see the modern-day utility of the thing - outside of the obvious historical case of hooking up your case to one of the then-plentiful high quality CRT PC monitors accepting RGBHV.

About the PS2 in specific, from what I've seen there isn't any obvious path to take advantage of an internal 640x480 framebuffer (or similar) since the PS2 works differently. You might as well just use a 480i-oriented general solution in that case, as others said.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:55 am 


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tongshadow wrote:
Not sure if I got your message, but 480i is virtually irrelevant for these machines considering majority of their games run at 480p, and "easy and proper" solutions for those consoles already exist somewhat.
It would be a thing just for the PS2, a mod like the GCVideo for the Gamecube.


With homebrew I suppose. Xbox and Gamecube have less official 480p than PS2 in PAL regions.

Well I was talking about external boxes with that comment.
I'm not familiar enough with PS2 to say for certain how much better video quality it'd gain from a mod, versus a box.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:22 am 



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tongshadow wrote:
To be honest, I dont know how hard or costly would be to implement a PS2 HDMI solution similar to the Gamecube GCVideo, only modders like citrus could answer that.

You're not asking for something similar to the GCVideo though, you're asking for a full on deinterlacer solution.
tongshadow wrote:
But even if it was expensive, I'm sure there would be people willing to pay for a perfect and easy solution for the PS2. I mean cmon, have you seen all the trouble people go just to get RGB out of a NES? :mrgreen:

Big distinctions here. First the NES's composite output looks awful on most displays. The PS2's component output looks as good as it's going to get on most displays.

Second if your display can't deinterlace correctly there are alternatives available, there are no alternatives to NES RGB modding.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:26 pm 


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I'd love a device priced around the cost of an OSSC that did Framemeister style and level of quality deinterlacing for the PS2 and that also handled progressive/interlace switching for various consoles too. From what little I understand those two features require a frame buffer so some lag would be unavoidable but I think I could live with 25ms for certain games (less action-packed games). I understand a lot of people are gaming on modern flat screens where deinterlacing is as good if not better than the Framemeister but for my niche setup, where I like using a PC CRT with an OSSC, it's a piece of a puzzle that I'd like to see resolved.

I can't really justify getting a Framemeister just for the PS2 now that I have an OSSC, unfortunately.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:01 pm 



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theclaw wrote:
I'm not familiar enough with PS2 to say for certain how much better video quality it'd gain from a mod, versus a box.

Probably much better if it's an internal mod like the GCVideo or Ultra HDMI, you'd be getting a lossless digital signal straight from the console.

ZellSF wrote:
You're not asking for something similar to the GCVideo though, you're asking for a full on deinterlacer solution.

Not at all, I'm suggesting exactly something like GCVideo or the N64's Ultra HDMI. This kind of mod directly takes a lossless digital signal from the console itself, so you can get the highest quality possible.
A mod like this for the PS2 would probably present its own set of challenges, but ultimately it would the best solution, offering the best quality while maintaining practicality. Said mod could have its own deinterlacing capabilities to always output progressive signals, for maximum compability on modern displays, for example.

But while someone doesnt come up with such solution... yea, dealing with the PS2 on modern displays is a pain.
Ironically, the cheapest best no-compromise solution would be a good old analog TV with component inputs. Hope you have some space left though!


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:42 pm 


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Many ps2 games are field rendered - even an internal digital solution would still have to "deinterlace"


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:46 am 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Many ps2 games are field rendered - even an internal digital solution would still have to "deinterlace"

A solution for the PS2 should have all of a deinterlacer (ideally something more substantial than a bob deinterlace, even if it takes a frame, frame and a half of lag), a smoothing filter (might help with some deinterlacing artifacts), a scaler that can survive mode changes (like the UltraHDMI), and a direct mode (also like the UltraHDMI).


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:56 pm 



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nmalinoski wrote:
What's worse is that this guide clearly states "Game titles that have the option of playing in higher resolutions will be forced to 480i and upsampled to 720p"; so, even more unnecessarily, it will take games outputting in 480p, 720p, and 1080i, scale those down to 480i, and then rescaled to 720p. WTF.


The guide is directing you to change the setting of video from component to RGB. RGB on the PS2 is only ever going to be interlaced, so this means 480i at all times, unless they force progressive scan in which case it will have all of the variable issues of the old Blaze VGA/Xploder HDTV Player, so 100% certainty they are not going that route.

Ergo, this cable will be used with a 480i signal from the PS2 at all times which is then upscaled. If you force 480p or 1080i on those games that can do it? Who knows what could happen, possibly the hardware in the cable wart will shit the bed then go cry in a corner.

Quote:
A PS2 HDMI solution clearly needs the ability to scale and deinterlace (optionally, of course)


Well if it's optional then it isn't something that is clearly necessary is it? I'm not rushing out to get this cable, but it doesn't look like it is jumping through that many hoops. I just think it would be best to do a straight conversion and let your TV do the scaling, if you need more or better than that, plenty of hardware does it a lot better than a $30 cable ever will.


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 Post subject: Re: Pound Technology PS2/PS1 HDMI Cable
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:40 pm 



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Endymion wrote:
The guide is directing you to change the setting of video from component to RGB. RGB on the PS2 is only ever going to be interlaced, so this means 480i at all times, unless they force progressive scan in which case it will have all of the variable issues of the old Blaze VGA/Xploder HDTV Player, so 100% certainty they are not going that route.

Ergo, this cable will be used with a 480i signal from the PS2 at all times which is then upscaled. If you force 480p or 1080i on those games that can do it? Who knows what could happen, possibly the hardware in the cable wart will shit the bed then go cry in a corner.

That RGB is only ever going to be interlaced is only true of the Xbox, as it's not capable of 240p and requires YPbPr for any video modes greater than 15kHz. The PS2, on the other hand, is capable of all its supported video modes over both YPbPr and RGB, the hitch being that the PS2 uses RGBS for 15kHz and RGsB for 31kHz+.

You do have a point, though; I was misinterpreting the guide as saying it would downscale 480p+ when using those video modes; but if it forces 480i, then, yeah, what happens if you try to enable 480p+ on a game like God of War or Gran Turismo? Does it ignore the mode change, or try to interpret the 480p signal as 480i, resulting in a garbled mess?

Either way, I can't imagine 480i scaled to 720p can ever look good. I'll be excited to see reviews of this thing, and I'm curious to see if its scaler will survive mode changes without dropping signal, but I'm still going to steer clear of it.

Endymion wrote:
Quote:
A PS2 HDMI solution clearly needs the ability to scale and deinterlace (optionally, of course)


Well if it's optional then it isn't something that is clearly necessary is it? I'm not rushing out to get this cable, but it doesn't look like it is jumping through that many hoops. I just think it would be best to do a straight conversion and let your TV do the scaling, if you need more or better than that, plenty of hardware does it a lot better than a $30 cable ever will.

Well, yes; it's necessary for compatibility. When I say it's optional, I mean we should be able to toggle it on or off to preference, because no feature in a device like this should be forced on.

If my TV is good at deinterlacing 480i, then I should have the option to pass-through 480i to my TV; however, if my TV sucks at deinterlacing, or my TV doesn't support 240p or 480i over HDMI, or my TV is really laggy unless it's fed a 720p or 1080p signal, or I want to take my PS2 to a friend's house and their TV has any of these problems, then I'd want a solution that can accommodate all of that, like the UltraHDMI does.

And you're right, this is a cheap product targeting the budget-minded, the uninformed, and the apathetic. It's a simple cable, but it does stupid things; so of course none of us is going to rush out and get it.


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