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 Post subject: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:38 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 74
I've been using an OSSC with my workstation Dell LCD which is said to have low input lag but I'd like to get another LCD dedicated to shmups. Is there a particular model or a brand that would be best?

Possible to find something with very low input lag and 4:3 (yeah right) or 5:4?

Should rotating for tate mode be handled by the VESA mount I use to attach it to my desk, or do some monitors have good facilities for that built in?


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:11 pm 


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I don't know what your resolution requirements are, but if you're dedicating a monitor for shmups only I guess I can suggest what I use.

I've been using a Benq Zowie RL2460 on a VESA mount for rotation. It's a lagless 1080p gaming monitor used for esports and fighting game tournaments. I'd say it's the best gaming monitor I've ever owned, tbh, and I use it for more than just shmups and fighters. It's pretty much the only LCD I'd use with games when I'm not using a CRT.
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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:05 pm 


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Display shopping is a mind bending hassle full of tradeoffs. Decide what's important to you. Grade these characteristics based on your personal priorities.

Think about:
Viewing angles
Color accuracy
Latency
Response Motion Blur
Persistence Motion Blur
Screen size
Aspect ratio
Flicker
Resolution
Signal compatibility
Scaling quality
Scaling algorithm/filtering options
Geometry options

You won't get all of those things. You have to choose.
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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:46 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 74
Latency is #1 on my mind but it must be an LCD, no CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:10 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 45
Just how big of a display do you need? The latest 32" 2160p "4K" gaming monitors with VESA Adaptive-Sync, aka AMD FreeSync, and DCI-P3 VA panels are arguably the best and largest that it gets for PC displays and the closest available to 4:3 around unless you start looking at $$$ medical imaging monitors (which tend to have higher input latency, but are available in square form factors). The VRR feature will help with judder and screen tearing in emulators (with compatible GPU) and the DCI-P3 VA panels panels have much better color performance, even in sRGB/BT.709 mode. The 2160p resolution also has the benefit of being an integer multiple of 240p, 720p, and 1080p. An example of what you're looking for would be the LG 32UD60.

For tate rotation, you'll want to use any number of available VESA arms with a rotate feature. Amazon reviews are your friend here. There's tons of options available if you go looking and you generally get what you pay for here.

Sizing-wise, 16:9->4:3 conversation works out to roughly: 32"->26", 27"->22", and 24"->20".

Sizing:
http://www.displaywars.com/

For extensive PC monitor testing:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/

For input latency testing and TV testing in general, you'll want to check out Rtings:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

If you're thinking OLED as it's the closest thing to a CRT, but worried about burn-in:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real-life-oled-burn-in-test
https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/permanent-image-retention-burn-in-lcd-oled


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:35 pm 


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If we're listing links to display websites, this one shouldn't be omitted: https://www.blurbusters.com
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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:12 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 74
This is on my desktop so between 20" and 24" would be about right. Do they make 1ms, 2160p, DCI-P3 VA panels in this size?


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:35 pm 


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shmupsrocks wrote:
This is on my desktop so between 20" and 24" would be about right. Do they make 1ms, 2160p, DCI-P3 VA panels in this size?


I don't think any VA panels are that fast, if you value pixel response time highly you're stuck with TN until OLED monitors come out, if ever. Maybe some VA panels have nicely tweaked overdrive though and perform well enough to be comparable?


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:48 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
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To be clear it's input lag that I want to minimize (1ms).


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:49 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 74
opt2not wrote:
I've been using a Benq Zowie RL2460 on a VESA mount for rotation. It's a lagless 1080p gaming monitor used for esports and fighting game tournaments. I'd say it's the best gaming monitor I've ever owned, tbh, and I use it for more than just shmups and fighters. It's pretty much the only LCD I'd use with games when I'm not using a CRT.


Is the viewing angle good in tate mode? I was reading some negative comments on that regarding this monitor.


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:14 pm 


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shmupsrocks wrote:
opt2not wrote:
I've been using a Benq Zowie RL2460 on a VESA mount for rotation. It's a lagless 1080p gaming monitor used for esports and fighting game tournaments. I'd say it's the best gaming monitor I've ever owned, tbh, and I use it for more than just shmups and fighters. It's pretty much the only LCD I'd use with games when I'm not using a CRT.


Is the viewing angle good in tate mode? I was reading some negative comments on that regarding this monitor.


I haven't had any issues with viewing angles being bad or anything. Here's a bunch of different angles of the LCD (from my old set-up):

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

As you can see, even from the extreme side angles, the image is still clear and bright. It's a fantastic monitor, but like I said, it's only 1080p.
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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:44 pm 


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shmupsrocks wrote:
To be clear it's input lag that I want to minimize (1ms).


Ah, in case you didn't know then, when manufacturers list a "1ms response time" they're talking about pixel transition times, not input lag. No manufacturer mentions input lag. Maybe you already knew this but that's the impression I got from listing a monitor as a 1ms monitor.

Monitors are generally very low on lag, but not entirely lag-free. I want to say something around 5ms at the top is what I hear a lot, though the refresh on a lot of LCDs is faster than 16ms, so there'd be less lag at the bottom essentially.


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:10 pm 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 45
shmupsrocks wrote:
Is the viewing angle good in tate mode? I was reading some negative comments on that regarding this monitor.

Off-axis viewing angles are abysmal for TN panels, especially in the vertical, which is why you only see them used on cheap PC monitors and not on TVs. So much so you can easily see color shift just moving a few degrees off-center. VA and IPS are the way to go. The tradeoff between IPS and VA basically comes down to sacrificing some pixel color shift rise/fall time (which is not the same as input lag) for better, more consistent black level and color performance. Not like uber fast rise/fall times between colors (TN panels) really matters all that much for vintage console/arcade games anyways as effectively zero run at more than ~61 fps. A modern, current model monitor with low input lag running a relatively slow VA panel (relative to TN) is more than fast enough.

Here's a good example of input lag vs panel glass response time when you look into the review:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/lg_32gk850g.htm

shmupsrocks wrote:
This is on my desktop so between 20" and 24" would be about right. Do they make 1ms, 2160p, DCI-P3 VA panels in this size?

You're realistically looking at a 27"/28" panel for 4K, which is about the smallest you'd want to go given what Windows desktop text and UI elements look like with that much resolution on a monitor that small. If you're looking at something 24", the vast majority of options are have 1080p or 1440p panels. I will say, however, that 24" feels kind of small in the modern era, despite the sizing sounding "big" if you're coming from 4:3 land. Usable screen area with 4:3 source material on 24" isn't all that much bigger than a classic 19" CRT PC monitor.


Last edited by energizerfellow‌ on Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:16 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 74
Doesn't the "gaming monitor" thing primarily mean low input lag?

I'm surprised people use monitors as big as they do for this low-res stuff. I was using a 19" CRT for a while and it seemed too big. The pixels were huge. If I have to use a 27" or 28" LCD then my only hope will be setting it up in a VESA stand that will let me position it as far back as possible.

What is the smallest VA panel you expect I could find with ultra-low input lag and integer scaling for 240p? This will be for shmups only. I'll never see an OS desktop on the thing.

EDIT: If I choose a monitor with integer scaling for 240p, will it still integer scale with 224 line sources via an OSSC?


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:35 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 45
Problem being that the market for higher resolution, low-latency IPS/VA displays under 27" has effectively dried up. The 24" market is largely a 1080p TN wasteland these days with a smattering of 60hz-only pro imaging monitors.

The whole "gaming" thing is all marketing hype and whatever the marketing team feels like coming up with. Reality is that anything officially supporting 75+ hz refresh at native resolution and/or FreeSync/G-Sync with a IPS/VA panel should have effetely zero latency and a fast enough panel to not have motion blur.

You won't even need a separate VESA stand as basically all included stands have a rotate function these days on all but the cheapest monitors.

224p resolutions should have just a bit of black boarder around it, so no biggie.


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:41 am 


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"No motion blur" at 60Hz on a consumer "sample and hold" PC monitor panel doesn't exist in new units right now. You will see persistence blur--and the gross smearing nastiness will always be there.

No flicker free sample and hold technology can display 60Hz without perceived blur. They don't manufacture any proper consumer PC monitors with 60Hz strobe/black frame insertion anymore. So, don't expect "no motion blur" at 60Hz from a consumer PC monitor. You won't get it.

It's got blur. Count on it.
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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:52 am 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 74
It sounds like my target should be a 27" or 28" IPS/VA monitor with either G-Sync, FreeSync, or >=75hz refresh at native res.


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:49 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 74
I found a few interesting options:

Dell 2007FP:
https://www.amazon.com/2007FP-Ultrashar ... B000UVDONY

20"
4:3
IPS or VA panel (lottery)
1600x1200
16ms response time
? input lag

The OSSC can multiply lines up to 5x so 1200 res is perfect for 240p. The response time is slow but nobody seems to be complaining about ghosting with this monitor. I can't find anything concrete WRT input lag but there are some positive anecdotal comments:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/de ... ag.173364/

Dell U2412M:
https://www.amazon.com/Dell-UltraSharp- ... B005JN9310

24"
16:10
IPS panel
1920x1200
8ms response time
9.4ms input lag (https://forums.shoryuken.com/t/sub-1-fr ... ase/133227)

Here I could still use OSSC at 5x to reach the monitor's native res. Response time is better than above and input lag is low. I'd be giving up 4:3 for 16:10.

Dell E228WFP:
https://www.amazon.com/Dell-E228WFP-Wid ... B001BKR5D8

22"
16:10
TN panel
1680x1050
5ms response time
3ms input lag (https://forums.shoryuken.com/t/sub-1-fr ... ase/133227)

Here I would have to rely on the monitor to scale up from 4x or down from 5x out of the OSSC. Response time is better than above and input lag is extremely low. It uses a TN panel which I expect would hurt image quality.

Beyond these I could get something new with a good response time, low input lag, an IPS or VA panel, and G-Sync or FreeSync, but the monitor would need to scale up from the OSSC's 5x output.


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:16 pm 



Joined: 02 Dec 2017
Posts: 58
Location: PA,USA
This has been a super informative thread, I'm good with CRT's but Flatscreen dumb.


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:30 pm 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 179
Location: germany
Just throwing in the 19" BenQ BL912 5:4 LED Backlight RT 5ms. It takes 15khz RGBS and RGBHV


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:51 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 74
Wow you guys blew through the 12 Dell 2007FP monitors on Amazon in 4 or 5 days. Glad I ordered one. :) Who else got one?


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 Post subject: Re: LCD monitor for shmups
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:01 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 74
The stand that comes with the 2007FP swivels clockwise but not counter-clockwise. I need to be able to swivel both ways right?


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