Buying or building a decent arcade light gun?

[Classicgamer]

My next vintage gaming quest is to buy or build a decent arcade light gun. To date, I have not been able to find one that measures up.

I bought a couple of Ultimarc guns a few years ago. They had a nice story about being "arcade quality" but they simply aren't. They feel light and flimsy and lack any of the recoil found in arcades. They just didn't capture the magic.... at least not for me anyway.

Has anyone here found a genuinely good arcade gun for use with emulators? Or made one as a diy project?

Ultimarc offers an (expensive) diy recoil kit but.... looking at it, it's just a cheap solenoid . I have several 5v and 36v solenoids here. They would be easy to fit inside the gun casing but I see several problems. My solenoids do not do well with repeated use. They might add something for mimicking that semi-auto feel but I can't see how they could replicate the full auto feel found on arcades like Operation Wolf

Maybe I could add a switch to use a 36v solenoid for semi auto and a small vibrating motor like this for full auto games:

https://www.robotshop.com/en/vibrating-disk-motor.html

But... I am worried that it will feel more like an "adult toy" than a full auto gun when it vibrates... I can't stand vibrating joypads. They add nothing in terms of realism for me.

I used to have a few airsoft guns that mimic the feel of full auto blow back by using a motor (or gas) to rapidly slide a bolt back and forward. I think this might be best (if I have to make my own) and I could see it working with a small dc motor like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-6000RPM ... 363a8bdc13

Sliding a metal bolt back and forward at 5000-6000 rpm would certainly feel more realistic for full auto. The only other problems I can see that aren't really addressed are:

There is (at least) two types of arcade gun. My Ultimarc guns are a good start for Lethal Enforcers type games but they are nowhere near for the feel of Terminator 2 style games where the gun is fixed and more like a mouse than a light gun.

Maybe the only way to fully capture the arcade magic is to have two types of gun...

The other which is harder to solve is the size. Some arcades use full size rifles, some pistols and other sub-machine guns. There is no way Jurassic park will feel right with a lethal enforcers-like gun... we need body kits for our arcade guns..... or something...

It's hard work being a purist.... I need ideas from my fellow purists like you guys.

[Syntax]

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62723

[Classicgamer]

I think that design is ok for semi-auto but I have doubts on how long it will last with that full auto mod.

I have a little experience with those tubular solenoids from my air gun projects. They work well for sporadic button pressing functions (like a remote trigger on a bolt-action bullpup air rifle) but they are not designed to be on for longer than a few seconds or for continuous rapid on / off. I think it will burn out. I'm going to experiment.

Every electric rapid fire mechanism I have seen on air rifles or airsoft guns cycles with a gear motor. Those things are designed for continuous use so a decent one should hold up. More importantly, it wouldn't require any custom circuit boards for continuous motion. They just need a power supply with a simple on / off microswitch. So less to go wrong.

Interestingly, Ultimarc sells the lightgun electronics as an "OEM kit" for $40 (which means they think the plastic shell and solenoid is worth $80...). I wonder if I could fit one inside one of the real operation wolf arcade guns that is currently on eBay.

[s8n]

i'm hoping in the future someone creates a Gun usable on LCD screens and is very responsive. No offense but the AimTrak looks like you dragging a mouse slowly around the screen , i wonder what the Namco PS3 Guncon is like in terms of performance ?. Also if i'm correct Point Blank was re-released in the Arcades with LCD screens , we need similar technology that is responsive for home use. I think it can be done but it's just a matter of time

[Syntax]

Your info regarding solenoids is way off.

If you keep it engaged it heats up and burns out.
Also if you look at the gun around the solenoid you will see vents that rapidly cool it.

Running my guns on rapid fire 24 hours straight you would produce less heat than using a simple relay.
I've done it.

All gear slides are too slow or bulky imo.
Hearing the gear ruins it for me.

[Classicgamer]

You can't hear the gears over the sound of the bolt cycling on airsoft blowback AEGs. Check out this guy's airsoft mod:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0MbJDdKWq-A


To me, it's just easier to visualize how I could make it cycle using a high speed motor vs programming a custom rapid fire circuit for a solenoid.

I would give it a try with a solenoid if anyone sold rapid fire circuits that were ready to use but I can't find any.

So far, this is the only decent diy light gun project I have seen for home use:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... c=157861.0

This guys gets it!

[Syntax]

Thats a really cool gun
Im just saying if you think gears and a motor are going to outlast a solenoid you're wrong.

The only thing a geared setup could do better than a solenoid is rise and fall time.
Engage duration of the solenoid must be around 46ms for a decent feel and it takes the spring around 42ms to return the slide.
So all up 10-11 shots per second.

The circuit is really easy to build.

I personally cannot stand the Wiimote like lag that an aimtrack comes with.

Old school on CRT or nothing I say.

[Classicgamer]

Thats a really cool gun
Im just saying if you think gears and a motor are going to outlast a solenoid you're wrong.

The only thing a geared setup could do better than a solenoid is rise and fall time.
Engage duration of the solenoid must be around 46ms for a decent feel and it takes the spring around 42ms to return the slide.
So all up 10-11 shots per second.

The circuit is really easy to build.

I personally cannot stand the Wiimote like lag that an aimtrack comes with.

Old school on CRT or nothing I say.

I was not actually going to use a gearbox, just a regular small high speed motor to create the back and forward linear motion. Gears aren't necessary for a light gun recoil system because, unlike with airsoft guns, it doesn't need extra torque to pull back an air cylinder.

I was doing a little research into how recoil worked on a few of the full auto arcade guns that I consider to be the best and a good number use regular motors instead of solenoids. A lot use solenoids too, so clearly both approaches can be made to work with the right know-how.

I intend to try both. I have an idea for a mechanical circuit break for the rapid on / off for solenoid full auto. I also ordered a mini 12v 5000 rpm motor to try.

I agree 100% on the aimtrak issues. Those guys are not real gamers. Do you know of any other options for a PC? The few other light gun sellers all seem to use aimtrak parts.... I do all my gaming on a CRT so I am hoping there are better options... somewhere....

I saw a prototype adapter to use real arcade guns on a PC but I haven't been able to find any for sale yet. There are a bunch of nice used Operation Wolf, Operation Thunderbolt and T2 guns on ebay...

Then..., there are those infrared sensors used on more modern arcade shooters like Termination Salvation. They work really well (on any type of screen). I wonder if it is possible to use one with mame for older games. The Termination Salvation PCB is basically just a PC in a box so.... in theory....

[Dochartaigh]

Old school on CRT or nothing I say.

Has anybody been able to play MAME (on a Windows PC), on a CRT (with GroovyMAME perhaps), with a REAL (i.e. NOT IR) lightgun? And is that lightgun available for purchase?

I've been following this from time to time and could never find a recent solution (found some lightguns from like 10+ years ago which aren't available and only worked with an ancient version of MAME...but that's about it...and who knows if those even worked well).


Also, weren't games like one of the House of the Dead's (I could be mixing up the exact game) played in the arcade with IR lightguns? And every actual arcade light gun game I ever played always seemed plenty accurate and fast...if this is true, why can't we get that same performance on IR lightguns this many years later?


I just bought an AimTrak with recoil (those are expensive too!), since it seemed to be the best currently playable on MAME (that I know of), and I've not seen anything better which is currently available. I'm hoping it's not as horrible as you've all been saying. In the meantime I own about 20 lightgun games for my NES, PS1, PS2, Saturn, and Dreamcast to keep me busy with real lightguns (what are this type called anyway? Optical lightguns?).

[Classicgamer]

More modern Arcade shooters which are PC based and use flat-screen displays use infrared guns with more expensive cameras like this:

https://na.suzohapp.com/products/arcade ... 0-00010-01

As with most things, I think the issue is the quality of the parts rather than limitations with the underlying technology. All (or most) home arcade gun products use cheap and poor quality parts.

The RAW Thrills arcade gun games are every bit as accurate and responsive as the older arcade light gun variety. I think they might even be better. Similarly, my old Master System light gun I had as a kid was every bit as terrible as the aimtrak I have now.

As for Mame compatibility, I have no idea if the newer PC based arcade guns work with older games.

[Syntax]

More modern Arcade shooters which are PC based and use flat-screen displays use infrared guns with more expensive cameras like this:

https://na.suzohapp.com/products/arcade ... 0-00010-01

As with most things, I think the issue is the quality of the parts rather than limitations with the underlying technology. All (or most) home arcade gun products use cheap and poor quality parts.

The RAW Thrills arcade gun games are every bit as accurate and responsive as the older arcade light gun variety. I think they might even be better. Similarly, my old Master System light gun I had as a kid was every bit as terrible as the aimtrak I have now.

As for Mame compatibility, I have no idea if the newer PC based arcade guns work with older games.

It's not really the fault of the home console guns being inaccurate, it's more the difference in programming.

For instance Time Crisis 2 PS2 has 2 methods of calibration. Single point and dual point. And dual point is only so it can work out the difference in progressive mode.

Get the same game on arcade PCB and calibration is a 6 point setup.
You fire at 5-6 different spots on the screen rather than take an average of the whole thing.

The difference is night and day.

[Dochartaigh]

For instance Time Crisis 2 PS2 has 2 methods of calibration. Single point and dual point. And dual point is only so it can work out the difference in progressive mode.

I just tried this again for Time Crisis 2, and Vampire Night...but am I misunderstanding something? I can't get either of those to work in 480p on my PS2 and either a PVM-20L5 or BVM-D20F1U (both 480p capable CRT's). Can't get House of the Dead 3 for OG Xbox to work in 480p with the lightgun either (think somebody posted about this in some other topic a while ago I'm off to try to find...). Think the PS2 games ight only work on a 100hz EDHD set or something like that (which aren't common in the USA)...or I would very well be missing something

[Syntax]

For instance Time Crisis 2 PS2 has 2 methods of calibration. Single point and dual point. And dual point is only so it can work out the difference in progressive mode.

I just tried this again for Time Crisis 2, and Vampire Night...but am I misunderstanding something? I can't get either of those to work in 480p on my PS2 and either a PVM-20L5 or BVM-D20F1U (both 480p capable CRT's). Can't get House of the Dead 3 for OG Xbox to work in 480p with the lightgun either (think somebody posted about this in some other topic a while ago I'm off to try to find...). Think the PS2 games ight only work on a 100hz EDHD set or something like that (which aren't common in the USA)...or I would very well be missing something

Yup your missing something.

Progressive mode in Namco shooters refers to the TVs mode, not the PS2s output. The wiki should be edited.

So if you have a newer crt that deinterlaces and runs the image as progressive those games and a couple of others have a 2 point calibration mode to accommodate for the different sync rates.

To enter the mode you hold the trigger off screen and press select or something I forget. But it's kinda silly cause if you have a progressive TV the gun automatically switches to 2 point calibration anyway the second you aim at the screen.

[s8n]

what about the performance of the Guncon 3 for PS3 , has anyone tried it ?. If it works really well maybe the components could be cloned and made into a home use gun for MAME etc......