PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
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Tempest_2084
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PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
I've got a question. I've been using a PVM-1943MD as my main monitor for my retro games (via RGB SCART cables) for a while now. While it's nice, it's also small (19") and depending on the system there are issues with the sides of the screen being cut off (the Neo Geo and Genesis seem to be the biggest offenders). This weekend I was given a nice 27" Panasonic TV (CT-27D11E) which comes with component inputs even though it's a SD TV. The TV is in good shape and is from late 2001.
So here's my question: If I use a SCART to Component converter (I think I have one of those CSY-2100 clones somewhere) will the picture be close to what I'm getting on the PVM? I know the PVM is will probably be better, but as long as it's fairly close I think the extra 8" on the TV are worth it.
What has been everyone else's experience with SCART to Component vs RGB?
So here's my question: If I use a SCART to Component converter (I think I have one of those CSY-2100 clones somewhere) will the picture be close to what I'm getting on the PVM? I know the PVM is will probably be better, but as long as it's fairly close I think the extra 8" on the TV are worth it.
What has been everyone else's experience with SCART to Component vs RGB?
Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
Give it a try and see for yourself?
In practice, RGB and component will look the same (assuming proper calibration). A 19" PVM and a 27" consumer TV will not look the same though.
In practice, RGB and component will look the same (assuming proper calibration). A 19" PVM and a 27" consumer TV will not look the same though.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
Yeah I haven't had a chance to haul the TV down to where the systems are yet. I was just wondering if it's even worth it before I go through the hassle.Xer Xian wrote:Give it a try and see for yourself?
Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
Mostly true, yes. Main difference in ideal cases would be chroma sub sampling in YPbPr but in reality it's usually much less of a issue than most people make it seem like.Xer Xian wrote:In practice, RGB and component will look the same (assuming proper calibration).
Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
there is no chroma subsampling in analogue component unless your source is a digitally compressed YCbCr signal, but in this case a RGB signal derived from the same source would have the same problem.Main difference in ideal cases would be chroma sub sampling in YPbPr
Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
Actually, from the likes of nissling I was expecting a technical rant exposing how simplistic my view on the matter was. He would've been right I guess - who's to say that consumer CRTs followed proper SMPTE guidelines to decode component? But personally - with my CRTs 'calibration' being a product of casual eyeballing - I'm in no position to care
Btw @Tempest - once you get it up and running, some 240p evidence of your Panasonic would be welcomed
Btw @Tempest - once you get it up and running, some 240p evidence of your Panasonic would be welcomed
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Tempest_2084
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Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
Hopefully I'll get to it this weekend (maybe, possibly, we'll see). For 240p what's the best system to use? A PS1 game (I always like to use SotN)? Genesis with that 240p suite?Xer Xian wrote: Btw @Tempest - once you get it up and running, some 240p evidence of your Panasonic would be welcomed
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Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
I think you should get the Tv and keep the PVM. Use one for vertical games and the other for horizontal.
There is a difference between RGB and component but I can only really notice it on very high end monitors. I have tested the same content on my broadcast monitor (which has RGB and component). It's very close. While they look a little different, I have a hard time calling one "better".
You'll notice a difference in clarity between a pro monitor and a consumer TV regardless of which connection or color space you use. The PVM will be sharper. The TV will look more arcade-like. Personally, I prefer a smoother more arcade-like experience. Jagged edges that weren't visible on the original cab upsets me....
There is a difference between RGB and component but I can only really notice it on very high end monitors. I have tested the same content on my broadcast monitor (which has RGB and component). It's very close. While they look a little different, I have a hard time calling one "better".
You'll notice a difference in clarity between a pro monitor and a consumer TV regardless of which connection or color space you use. The PVM will be sharper. The TV will look more arcade-like. Personally, I prefer a smoother more arcade-like experience. Jagged edges that weren't visible on the original cab upsets me....
Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
Good for lightgun games.
Definitely worth having. 27" is great size, as well.
Definitely worth having. 27" is great size, as well.
We apologise for the inconvenience
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Tempest_2084
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Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
That's a good point actually. Sometimes, especially with the older systems, they tend to look 'funny' when they're too sharp. Back when composite was king I think they designed games to be seen with fuzzy edges so they tend to look off when they're too sharp. A nice clear S-Video tends to be the sweet spot for me, but the color vibrancy from RGB is really nice. We'll see what the TV looks like.Classicgamer wrote: You'll notice a difference in clarity between a pro monitor and a consumer TV regardless of which connection or color space you use. The PVM will be sharper. The TV will look more arcade-like. Personally, I prefer a smoother more arcade-like experience. Jagged edges that weren't visible on the original cab upsets me....
This TV will have all my 'classic' systems hooked up to it. Everything from my 2600 to my PS2.
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Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
Those jagged edges have more to do with the pitch than the type of connection. Pro video monitors have a fine pitch which is more like an HD computer monitor while your average CGA arcade monitor and SD CRT tv had a corse pitch. It's the CRT equivalent of a native resolution.
The pitch size was usually designed around an intended "native resolution". While a CRT can switch resolutions, their pitch is fixed like on a fixed pixel display. This is why 320 x 240 games have visible jaggies on monitors designed for 640 x 480p or 800 x 600p, even if displayed at the correct native res.
Some pro monitors made for 480i have a horizontal res capability that is twice that of the original cab monitor. In other words, jaggies are a result of the crt equivalent of a (poor) scaling artifact.
Arcade monitors and SD TVs have more bloom too, which also has a smoothing effect that benefits low res graphics.
I used to use my SNES and Neo Geo on a consumer TV with RGB back in the day and they looked good. SVideo is ok (but not the best) for SNES and Genesis games but you might find that text on arcade games looks a little blurred (particularly at the edges) on a consumer tv.
The pitch size was usually designed around an intended "native resolution". While a CRT can switch resolutions, their pitch is fixed like on a fixed pixel display. This is why 320 x 240 games have visible jaggies on monitors designed for 640 x 480p or 800 x 600p, even if displayed at the correct native res.
Some pro monitors made for 480i have a horizontal res capability that is twice that of the original cab monitor. In other words, jaggies are a result of the crt equivalent of a (poor) scaling artifact.
Arcade monitors and SD TVs have more bloom too, which also has a smoothing effect that benefits low res graphics.
I used to use my SNES and Neo Geo on a consumer TV with RGB back in the day and they looked good. SVideo is ok (but not the best) for SNES and Genesis games but you might find that text on arcade games looks a little blurred (particularly at the edges) on a consumer tv.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: PVM vs CRT TV (RGB vs Component)
Well I got the TV up and running and after some color tinkering I got it to an acceptable place. I need to play around with the pots in that CSY-2100 clone I have (anyone know for sure what each of those pots do?), but between adjusting those and playing with the very limited settings on the TV, I think it looks just about as good as my PVM. The color depth isn't quite as good, but I don't know if that can be fixed with some more tinkering. It's more noticeable in games where the character and the background share the same color but are different shades. For example, in The Goonies on the NES, your character and the mice both have red in them and so does the background. On the PVM they're easy to distinguish from each other, on the TV it's not quite as clear (although I made it better). I took some pictures with my iPhone, but the colors don't look anything like I'm seeing so they're pretty useless for comparisons. I'll post them anyway just because I promised, but take them with a grain of salt.
Overall I'm happy enough with it to replace my PVM (although I'm keeping that for back up). The only annoying thing is that some systems like the Neo Geo like to display past the edges of the screen, and as far as I can tell there's no geometry adjust. Most systems are just about perfect, but I lose about an inch with that stupid Neo Geo...
BTW, what's the best game and/or system to use for adjust the colors? I need something with a good color bar program and a reference picture.
Sorry in advance for these horrendous pictures, like I said I took them with my phone and the colors are all wonky.
SMB on the PVM
SMB on the TV
Goonies on the PVM
Goonies on the TV
Goonies on the PVM
Goonies on the TV
Metal Slug on the PVM
Metal Slug on the TV
Overall I'm happy enough with it to replace my PVM (although I'm keeping that for back up). The only annoying thing is that some systems like the Neo Geo like to display past the edges of the screen, and as far as I can tell there's no geometry adjust. Most systems are just about perfect, but I lose about an inch with that stupid Neo Geo...
BTW, what's the best game and/or system to use for adjust the colors? I need something with a good color bar program and a reference picture.
Sorry in advance for these horrendous pictures, like I said I took them with my phone and the colors are all wonky.
SMB on the PVM
SMB on the TV
Goonies on the PVM
Goonies on the TV
Goonies on the PVM
Goonies on the TV
Metal Slug on the PVM
Metal Slug on the TV