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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:27 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 242
Josh128 wrote:
The horizontal granularity of the 1024 horizontal res over 51" screen actually very closely mimics a nice consumer Trinitron. Thats why I was asking about it in the OSSC Pro thread. Had no idea this was possible on the OSSC.


Neither did I until you brought it up in that thread. I have a 50 inch 1365x768 NEC plasma and am pretty keen to see what it looks like on that as well.

What’s doing the aspect correction on your Samsung plasma given the rectangular pixels? The source or the sink?

What I also think might be worth further investigation are the Hitachi ALIS panels. I don’t have one anymore but if memory serves me their pixel structure looks very similar to trinitron aperture grill CRTs.

It would great if someone with an ALIS panel could post some close-ups.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:25 pm 


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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 812
Yeah its been a long time since I took that photo and I dont remember what my exact configuration was, other than the fact that I acheived it on the Kega Fusion (or whatever the name of the 2015 version was) MD emulator. I know for certain I somehow got it to integer scale on the vertical axis, and looking at my pictures it appears that the horizontal was perfectly scaled as well, but I might have been using the TVs internal scaler for that. It was displaying 720p on the 768p screen, so there were some small black borders at the top and the bottom, and of course there were large borders on the sides.

When using the TV scaler for the horizontal axis, even if it doesnt integer scale, its very smooth with virtually no scrolling shimmer like you would see on an emulator, but as I said I dont quite recall. I'd have to try again to re-create the settings.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:40 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 747
andy251203 wrote:
If you hate scanlines then you should be sticking with lower TVL count screens. You should probably look for screens with less than 450 TVL. Consumer CRTs meet this criteria. It has nothing to do with aperture grill vs. shadow mask. You just need a low TVL count.

I think you would be best getting a consumer TV with an RGB mod, or just a consumer TV in general. You also could look for pro monitors from the mid to late 80's that have lower TVL counts.

This. Consumer grade aperture grille tv's will also have subtle scanlines. A consumer grade crt is going to have organic looking scanlines either way, and it will be nothing like the scanlines found on BVM's, and frankly the bulk of PVM's as well, due to their all too prominent scanlines from having little to no blooming. Personally I'm not a fan of them as well, which is why I went back to consumer grades and gave up entirely on the bvm and pvm class of monitors.


Last edited by Taiyaki on Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:43 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 747
Brando1975 wrote:
Image

To me both look wrong. At that distance you should be seeing scanlines on the left one, but the beam bloom and overlapping too heavily into the gaps, which is not the way it should be either. The one on the right just looks awful to me, looks like emulated scanlines on an lcd, but that's a subjective thing too.

I agree with Classicgamer that scanlines was not something that I remember hearing about as a young child, it's something I became more aware of during the early emulation years, especially perhaps late 90's or early 00's once filters started coming up and we found the games often looked better with them on. We never really thought about the masks on crt's because crt's was all we knew, it's only after moving to lcd's. When we saw pixel based games on screen looking all jagged and overly sharp, it was clear something was off.

tongshadow wrote:
What does OP think about my "15 CRT TV on composite? It really has no scanlines. Please ignore the colors, it was very hard to take a good shot without the black bars covering up.
https://i.imgur.com/FJU0Ycy.jpg

Is that the PS2 collection, perhaps running in 480i? Usually 480i looks like that to me, vertical scanlines instead or horizontal.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:32 pm 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 154
Taiyaki wrote:
tongshadow wrote:
What does OP think about my "15 CRT TV on composite? It really has no scanlines. Please ignore the colors, it was very hard to take a good shot without the black bars covering up.
https://i.imgur.com/FJU0Ycy.jpg

Is that the PS2 collection, perhaps running in 480i? Usually 480i looks like that to me, vertical scanlines instead or horizontal.

MMX Collection runs at 240p, MM Collection is the one that got botched to 480i.
Many people have stated that small sets really hide scanlines.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:27 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 848
Since the last time I posted here I've reformed my opinion about scanlines. Now I kinda wish I could "graduate" from scanlines, but I'm addicted to a sharp picture now, and haven't found a good enough compromise of unnoticeable scanlines + sharpness (not to be confused with emulator-on-LCD-like sharp pixels, which I hate).

Tiny screen size or a soft picture seem to be the only options.

And "vertical scanlines" will always be noticeable up close when TV lines are not too high. The combo of horizontal and veritcal is what gives retro graphics that sort of grain de poudre look when seen up close.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:20 pm 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 154
Some more pictures. I really like how this TV deals with 480i sources, the flickering is just unnoticeable.

https://imgur.com/prp8yAQ
https://imgur.com/qJv1cpo
https://imgur.com/BlZPvAN
https://imgur.com/yawjrfk
https://imgur.com/x0VSFnx
https://imgur.com/UtohWxu
https://imgur.com/a8dxRg3


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:36 am 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 747
tongshadow wrote:
Taiyaki wrote:
tongshadow wrote:
What does OP think about my "15 CRT TV on composite? It really has no scanlines. Please ignore the colors, it was very hard to take a good shot without the black bars covering up.
https://i.imgur.com/FJU0Ycy.jpg

Is that the PS2 collection, perhaps running in 480i? Usually 480i looks like that to me, vertical scanlines instead or horizontal.

MMX Collection runs at 240p, MM Collection is the one that got botched to 480i.
Many people have stated that small sets really hide scanlines.

That's interesting. Normally even with small size monitors at 13 to 15 inch you can still see scanlines up close, but either way I love the look of the screenshots you posted. What model tv is it?

I have the MMX collection and played through all 6 games, and yet I hadn't realized lol.

fernan1234 wrote:
And "vertical scanlines" will always be noticeable up close when TV lines are not too high. The combo of horizontal and veritcal is what gives retro graphics that sort of grain de poudre look when seen up close.

Yes so called vertical scanlines (not exactly what they are but name makes sense to most people I think) are more pronounced when playing in 480i to me, it looks great on a good consumer tube, which is why personally I'm fond of 480i too. The only time I really feel odd is on games that were in the arcades at 240p and for some odd reason on the 6th gen ended up in 480i (can still look pretty good on a good tv though).


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:18 am 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 154
Taiyaki wrote:
That's interesting. Normally even with small size monitors at 13 to 15 inch you can still see scanlines up close, but either way I love the look of the screenshots you posted. What model tv is it?

It's an LG CP15Q90.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:08 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Since the last time I posted here I've reformed my opinion about scanlines. Now I kinda wish I could "graduate" from scanlines, but I'm addicted to a sharp picture now, and haven't found a good enough compromise of unnoticeable scanlines + sharpness (not to be confused with emulator-on-LCD-like sharp pixels, which I hate).


I bet you that a 240p at line 3x mode, with a blank line inserted on the third line would give you the very thin scanlines, and as far as sharpness, it might sound a little crazy, but you could slightly back off the focus pot on the flyback transformer on your 31KHz CRT. It would soften the picture ever so slightly while retaining the thin scanlines. Or if a bilinear filter could be added to the line 3x blankline mode that would possibly work too, it just wouldnt be as adjustable as focus on the flyback.

I bet it would make for the unique look you are looking for. Of course, you still wouldnt be able to see the shadow mask, as its so fine, but the image would be what you seem to be chasing.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:10 pm 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 154
Modded component into my 15" set, so here are some pictures of the best image quality possible on sprite based games:

https://imgur.com/6KL5JYD
https://imgur.com/xEv6hRY
https://imgur.com/Mr3g7Hs
https://imgur.com/UrPj4Wc


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:22 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 848
tongshadow wrote:
Modded component into my 15" set, so here are some pictures of the best image quality possible on sprite based games:

https://imgur.com/6KL5JYD
https://imgur.com/xEv6hRY
https://imgur.com/Mr3g7Hs
https://imgur.com/UrPj4Wc


Though I'm an aperture grill partisan it's always so cool to see slot masks up close. It's also interesting that with this kind of slot mask while you don't get the usual horizontal scanlines on bright colors, but you sort of get vertical blank lines on some darker colors and primaries due to how the slot mask works.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:31 am 


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Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 1428
Location: Canada
fernan1234 wrote:
tongshadow wrote:
Modded component into my 15" set, so here are some pictures of the best image quality possible on sprite based games:

https://imgur.com/6KL5JYD
https://imgur.com/xEv6hRY
https://imgur.com/Mr3g7Hs
https://imgur.com/UrPj4Wc


Though I'm an aperture grill partisan it's always so cool to see slot masks up close. It's also interesting that with this kind of slot mask while you don't get the usual horizontal scanlines on bright colors, but you sort of get vertical blank lines on some darker colors and primaries due to how the slot mask works.


Eww not really my thing.

Is that an HD or SD CRT?


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:28 am 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 154
Why would it be an HDCRT? 240p content on these sets looks like a smudged mess, pretty much like how an old LCD scales.
It's a small set with low TVL, so the blank lines wont be as visible as a larger set (27" at least). In person it looks much more vibrant and sharper.

fernan1234 wrote:
Though I'm an aperture grill partisan it's always so cool to see slot masks up close. It's also interesting that with this kind of slot mask while you don't get the usual horizontal scanlines on bright colors, but you sort of get vertical blank lines on some darker colors and primaries due to how the slot mask works.

Yea, the slot mask is pretty large so the vertical are very visible. Some people might not like it, but it's pretty cool how you can each indivudual phosphor being lit in solid colors.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:18 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 747
Yeah I remember seeing 13/14 inch arcade monitors too, they were definitely uncommon and from what I recall probably for single player cabinets. The bulk of what I remember were in the 19 and 25 inch range, and then later in the 90's you'd have specialized extra large screen cabinets too. With most monitors of the 90's when you take curve into account you weren't quite getting the entire 19 or 25 inches though. The 19 inches for example were often more like 17 or 18 inches from the front, at least in my experience.


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