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 Post subject: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:43 am 



Joined: 17 Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Can someone recommend me a monitor that does not have apparent scanlines like this JVC?
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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:52 am 



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Brando1975 wrote:
Can someone recommend me a monitor that does not have apparent scanlines like this JVC?


Did you mean to say a monitor that DOES have clearly apparent scanlines? I ask because the scanlines on that JVC are not apparent to me much at all - probably because it's a shadowmask-type CRT, and low TV line shadowmask CRT's tend to have not very heavy/noticeable scanlines because the RGB 'dots' or 'lines' are grouped in a triangle sorta formation (instead of straight in a row like Sony's are...all this is in a nutshell fyi).

This is what people usually talk about when they talk about scanlines, you can see how they're much more defined and you can see the alternating lines of black between each row of color - especially on the green - where it gets lighter color you get bloom which makes the rows blend in a bit more:

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:03 am 



Joined: 17 Aug 2015
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I do not like much the clearly apparent scanlines, the image does not look very natural to me, the worst I've seen are the sony bvm.
Yes Im looking for a shadowmask-type CRT for the real retro experience, like in he 80s.
When I was young I had the Atari ST, my original monitor (atari) looked fantastic, a friend bought a sony pvm monitor and I asked, why your monitor looks strange with black lines?..


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:44 am 



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Brando1975 wrote:
I do not like much the clearly apparent scanlines, the image does not look very natural to me


You're looking for something that doesn't exist then - scanlines, or using every-other-line on a 480i CRT to display 240p content, is native and totally natural to how all 240p consoles were meant to be displayed. The (guessing here by your pic) low-TV Line shadowmask CRT you're using will give you the least scanlines, so if that's still too much for you (which like I said, I can barely see any on your monitor you pictured), you would be better off emulating, or line-doubling on a VGA monitor or something like that. Most people want the scanlines...which I had on my Sony TV growing up in the 80's myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:53 am 



Joined: 17 Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Look at this outstanding image...natural, defined and without apparent scanlines
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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:10 am 


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This is the only kind of CRT I can tolerate. Sadly, I don't have any recommendations.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:33 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
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Brando1975 wrote:
Look at this outstanding image...natural, defined and without apparent scanlines


That looks exactly like your original image you posted which you said had "apparent scanlines"...so I'm confused as to what you're looking for...


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:38 am 


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Dochartaigh, his OP said "does not have apparent scanlines like this JVC?" so that's what he's looking for.

OP like Doc said, you want a shadow mask CRT and not an aperture(trinitron).

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:00 am 



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 281
The pictures Brando posted are of a shadow mask TV tube, i.e. a slot-type shadow mask tube. Any RGB TV or arcade monitor will have that look (more uniform picture, less evident blank lines), especially older, curved ones.

The picture Doomsdave posted on the right is of a shadow mask PC monitor/professional tube, i.e. a circular hole shadow mask tube (finer phosphor trio pitch than TV tube, evident blank lines).
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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:16 am 


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beautiful picture on that JVC Brando :D Hope you'll find one like it!


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:33 pm 



Joined: 17 Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Llook at those "beautiful scanlines", it seems that people are blind, scanlines are very invasive (far the worst I've seen are form the sony bvm)
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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:08 pm 



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 132
If you hate scanlines then you should be sticking with lower TVL count screens. You should probably look for screens with less than 450 TVL. Consumer CRTs meet this criteria. It has nothing to do with aperture grill vs. shadow mask. You just need a low TVL count.

I think you would be best getting a consumer TV with an RGB mod, or just a consumer TV in general. You also could look for pro monitors from the mid to late 80's that have lower TVL counts.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:23 pm 



Joined: 17 Aug 2015
Posts: 15
I hate intrusive and annoying deep scanlines (like sony bvm), light scanlines could be fine.
The problems of those tvs (14"-17") that very few have component input.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:27 pm 


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I'm sure that most shadowmask TVs will fit the bill to be honest. Look at a bunch of 'em and you're bound to find one that has a tv line count similar to your first pic

I'm guessing 500 TVL over 25" screen - or something similar - is what's gonna be the ticket


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:30 pm 


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I appreciate the look of 480i on a softer CRT. Less flicker and better motion.
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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:49 pm 



Joined: 08 Sep 2018
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I am unable to see the whole image. can anyone tell me why this is happening with me?


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:02 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 128
With a 240p image on a 15.7khz tv, the gaps between scanlines will be there on any monitor. It's just a case of how visible they are.

Just buying a monitor that is capable of displaying fewer vertical lines will not necessarily help. The Ikegami TM20-20 specs state 600tvl (the same as high end consumer tv's) but gaps between scanlines are still clearly visible.

It's the level of bloom and the precision with things like convergance that make the gaps visible or not. Lower quality monitors and TVs bloom more making it hard to see the gaps between scanlines unless you look closely.

The style of mask is irrelavent in this topic. People draw simplistic conclusions - i.e. "I saw a shadow mask monitor I like so all shadow mask monitors must be like that". A low end consumer Trinitron will look smooth and lineless like any other type of low end tube (including shadow mask).

On any monitor, you can usually smooth the scanlines and jaggies by turning up the brightness and / or playing with the contrast as more brightness = more bloom. You can even hide the scanlines (to an extent) on the Sony BVMs and Ikegami monitors with an excess of brightness.

As an FYI, bloom manifests as a spillage of light over the surrounding pixels. High quality monitors try to reduce this effect to increase clarity and, more importantly, increase contrast. OLED displays look so amazing because pixels (or the phosphors they light up to make them) can be full on or full off. I.e. You could display the brightest whites next to the blackest blacks without light spilling over to spoil the contrast. As a result, they can achieve contrast levels of 357,000:1 vs the next best display tech (LCOS) at around 50,000:1.

Remember, Jamma PCBs put out a higher voltage and a brighter signal than consumer hardware. Arcade monitors had to be brighter so they could be used outdoors. It's no wonder we can't remember seeing "scanlines" when we were kids with such a bright image on relatively low end CRTs....

That's a long way of saying: buy the lowest quality tv you can find with the inputs you need. If you are in Europe, that is easy as there were plenty of cheap curved Sharp and Orien CRTs with rgb scart inputs. Just make sure they can handle a 60hz signal (which many could not). In America, your average used curved CGA crt arcade monitor will give you what you want.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:06 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 128
As an FYI:

SF2 in mame run at native res on low end 27" Sony Trinitron at normal playing distance for an arcade game:

Image

I am assuming that this is closer to what you are looking for?


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:41 pm 


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Location: TX
If you really just hate scanlines and you don’t play lighthun games, then I would have to recommend an LCD with OSSC solution. You will get a great image with a good LCD, and they now have models that are lagless at 60Hz.

If you absolutely must have a tube, then you should look for a low end PC monitor or a slot-mask display. Slot-masks are a special type of shadow mask. Horizontal pixel lines are shaped like square waves instead of a straight line. That is to say that the hotizontal lines interlock like a finger-joint. At least that’s how it works on my JVC. It gives a fantastic, sharp image with no darkness between lines.

Don’t get Sony. And, don’t take this personally, but you got crap taste amigo. The left side Mischief Makers image looks far better.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:08 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 128
SCARTicus wrote:
If you really just hate scanlines and you don’t play lighthun games, then I would have to recommend an LCD with OSSC solution. You will get a great image with a good LCD, and they now have models that are lagless at 60Hz.

If you absolutely must have a tube, then you should look for a low end PC monitor or a slot-mask display. Slot-masks are a special type of shadow mask. Horizontal pixel lines are shaped like square waves instead of a straight line. That is to say that the hotizontal lines interlock like a finger-joint. At least that’s how it works on my JVC. It gives a fantastic, sharp image with no darkness between lines.

Don’t get Sony. And, don’t take this personally, but you got crap taste amigo. The left side Mischief Makers image looks far better.



I think you might have missed the point....

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the thread starter is looking for a more authentic arcade experience and not simple to eliminate scanlines.... Most of us who remember playing in the arcades in the 80's and 90's do not remember seeing thick black lines across the image or noticeable jagged edges in SF2 or double dragon etc.

Nobody ever said "look at those lovely scanlines" before these games became retro. Visible scanlines and jaggies were considered as "artifacts" or problems. People liked circles to be round without steps...

To arcade purists and nostalgia seekers, anything that makes games look different or worse than we remember is quite upsetting.

There is no scenario where switching to an LCD or a PC monitor is a good idea or a step up from a 15khz crt in any way for 240p gaming.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:19 pm 


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OP do you know what the model name of that JVC is by the way? It really looks terrific and I'd like to get one if I find one at a cheap price


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:29 pm 


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Cant believe no one has mentioned a 1084.

Best picture I've ever seen i think. Pretty much 0 scan lines on 240p content.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:36 pm 


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Everything was worse back then. I didn’t discover composite video until my Dreamcast wouldn’t interface with my RF only Zenith and I had to play on the tiny kitchen TV. None of the friends I used to play with even care about upgrading to svideo, much less RGB. They’re happy as long as it hooks up to their LCD TV and claim to not notice insane levels of lag. If all you are after is nostalgia, then almost any old set from the early 90s would be fine, but it will be hard to get a set like you want with svideo or component. Mitsubishi made some quality, large screen curved tubes with shadow masks and svideo. The really big ones have visible lines, though.

Also, playing on my Mitsubishi Diamond Plus 200 through the OSSC is a huge step up from any easily obtainable 15kHz monitor.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:45 pm 


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SCARTicus wrote:
If you really just hate scanlines and you don’t play lighthun games, then I would have to recommend an LCD with OSSC solution. You will get a great image with a good LCD, and they now have models that are lagless at 60Hz.

If you absolutely must have a tube, then you should look for a low end PC monitor or a slot-mask display. Slot-masks are a special type of shadow mask. Horizontal pixel lines are shaped like square waves instead of a straight line. That is to say that the hotizontal lines interlock like a finger-joint. At least that’s how it works on my JVC. It gives a fantastic, sharp image with no darkness between lines.

Don’t get Sony. And, don’t take this personally, but you got crap taste amigo. The left side Mischief Makers image looks far better.


There's a place and use for many different kinds of displays. Why so snarky?

I don't mind a monitor, but it's not perfect for everything.

LCD and OLED "sample and hold" looks bad. That's blurry.

Interlaced content looks bad on a sharp CRT or a digital display. I can see combing if I move my eyes quickly--and then there's the flicker.

Lagless displays sound nice, but why pair a lagless display with just an OSSC? That's silly. A CRT took 16 2/3 ms to draw a frame. If you're willing to accept the persistence blur, why NOT use a Framemeister (or other video processor) in the chain? The frame will finish "drawing" in 20ms--versus a complete CRT frame in 16 2/3 ms. The complete frame has 3 1/3 ms delay. At the center of the screen, there's more latency, but you're still well below a frame of latency. So, why connect a lagless display with instant response to just an OSSC? Why make sacrifices? The full frame buffer is essentially free in that scenario. On a truly lagless display with very fast response, use a full frame buffered scaler and get the image quality you want. No need to settle for bob deinterlacing, lack of image filtering, or overscan with 1080p linex5.
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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:13 pm 



Joined: 17 Aug 2015
Posts: 15
it's true the deep black scanlines ruin the experience, in the 80s we never saw those scanlines in the arcades (fortunately).
I also have a sony trinitron (wega) connected to an emotia super gx via component, the picture is amazing.
I should not say the name of the monitor because I want to buy one, but it doesn't matter, it is not hard to find and it's cheap .. all the images are from the JVC TM-A13SU. in my opinion way better than the famous Sony BVM.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:46 pm 


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Thanks for the monitor's name Brando.
It's not for buying right now, but later down the road. If one surfaces on ebay I won't buy it, so as to not strip you of your chance of getting one. I'll also let you know if I see a listing

by the way I checked a discussion on the JVC monitor on another site and someone is claming that it's in the same "familly" as the classic Commodore monitors 1702 and 1802(which were also made by JVC). He says it's using the same tube.
http://atariage.com/forums/topic/247508 ... u-monitor/

Maybe a Commodore 1702(or an RGB capable 1084) monitor will have a picture similar enough to the JVC TM-A13SU. This could be worth checking into, as the 1702 is often found on classifieds for cheap-ish prices


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:14 pm 



Joined: 17 Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Yes it's from the same family.. by the way the monitor has only composite and s-video but it's enough to display those great images


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:31 am 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 128
I don't think a commodore monitor is the way to go for an authentic arcade experience. I used to have a scart one on my desk in the 90's to run my first (Japanese import) PS1. I remember finding the image a little blocky even for 3d games like Ridge Racer. It wasn't terrible but it was certainly no better than average.

The main problem with them is that they are just too small. Most arcade monitors were either 19" (visible) or 25". My old favorites like double dragon, final fight and SF2 never looked or felt "arcade-like" on anything smaller than 19".

Scanlines will be less visible on smaller screens but it's not worth the trade off imo. Given a choice between a Commodore (or any small monitor) and a 21" or 25" consumer tv with scart or component, the tv is the better home arcade display.

As a general point, sitting a little further back solves a lot of these issues. Scanlines are always visible at 240p if you press your nose to the glass. That's true on my cga arcade monitors and consumer TVs.

I don't know what it's like where you live but CRT TVs with component are still being disposed of on curbs here in Westchester NY. My old man (who lives in the UK) just through away my old 25" scart Sony Trinitron.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:24 am 



Joined: 17 Aug 2015
Posts: 15
I agree with you in 100%, this monitor is not for more modern games, it is perfect for the late 80s / early 90's classics, I also agree with you that it's very small, my 21" sony wega is fantastic, but I want to have something smaller now


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor without apparent scanlines
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:45 am 



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 281
Classicgamer wrote:
I don't think a commodore monitor is the way to go for an authentic arcade experience.


Not all Commodore monitors are the same. The 1702 uses an A tube (vertical phosphor stripes, slotted mask) while the 1084 uses an M tube (dot phosphor pattern, circular hole mask) like a PC monitor. The difference is pretty evident. An A tube will look like this JVC monitor.

Classicgamer wrote:
Most arcade monitors were either 19" (visible) or 25". My old favorites like double dragon, final fight and SF2 never looked or felt "arcade-like" on anything smaller than 19".


14" (13" viewable) is definitely an arcade size. It was used in cocktail cabinets.
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