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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:27 pm 


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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Germany
I'm pretty sure that the F250 (like my E250) does not offer a flicker-free mode at all, so it's running with rolling scan all the time. The two PVMs (2541 and A250) have a flicker-free option available which disables rolling scan.

The deinterlacing settings don't affect this.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:49 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 708
Fudoh wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the F250 (like my E250) does not offer a flicker-free mode at all, so it's running with rolling scan all the time. The two PVMs (2541 and A250) have a flicker-free option available which disables rolling scan.

The deinterlacing settings don't affect this.


Thanks for the info. Interesting! I don't notice any flicker at all, though I've only seen 60Hz content on it. So I don't see why I would even want a flicker-free option. Perhaps it is noticeable with 50Hz PAL stuff. It definitely does look much clearer with motion than consumer OLEDs I've seen.

I gotta say, the Sony folks are some crazy wizards. While it still cannot dethrone my D24, which beats it with ultimately a punchier picture and true native scan that fits the whole screen for any content, I will shed less tears when I can't have a CRT any longer knowing that something like this is available (or even better, the 30'' or 31'' ones later). Interlaced content looks fantastic with the interlaced mode on. I think I even prefer it displaying 1080p downscaled to 1080i rather than untouched 1080p! It's crazy. I guess the interlace effect gives it something close to that crystalline clarity that we get naturally with CRTs. 720p and 480p also look amazing with x1 native scan if you don't mind the tiny picture. In sum, native scan options and interlace mode make this a great solution for anything below 1080p (except 240p, of course).


Fudoh, have you had a chance to test how your E250 does with any analogue inputs? I think any 480i system like DC, PS2, GC, Wii, etc., will be right at home. I ordered a composite and S-video input card to experiment a bit. Hope I can find an RGB card eventually for a decent price, right now they're around $700 by specialized vendors only.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:40 pm 


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Quote:
Interlaced content looks fantastic with the interlaced mode on.

it's very similar to running an OSSC with 480i with field based scanlines combined with a really good upscaler. Eventually the panel is still running in 1080p60, so all you're seeing is trickery by the picture processor.

Quote:
Fudoh, have you had a chance to test how your E250 does with any analogue inputs?

no, but I don't see any advantage in getting the add-on boards compared to getting an outboard component to hdmi converter. If your converter handles 480i fine, then you should be able to expect the exact same processing through the BVM's HDMI input.

Certainly interested to hear your impressions on the composite and s-video inputs though.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:58 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 708
The OSSC's bob-deinterlace + 100% dark scanlines certainly looked similar too, though it was less convincing than this one when I tried it a while ago on an LG C8. This thing's trickery seems better.

I'll be sure to post my impressions of how it handles direct analogue. I do expect it to be just as good as 480i via HDMI, though I didn't use any converters but rather a Pi outputting 15khz.

One downside I should highlight is the viewing angle, I don't get how Sony advertised it as a feature but I guess things can be even worse on other panels :lol: . It's so bad, two people would need to be cheek-to-cheek, and even that may not be good enough for 16:9 pictures. But maybe I'm just spoiled by CRT where viewing angles are simply a non-factor.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:53 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 352
I've contemplated buying the 25" one recently. But man 5k is a shit ton of money. Even 2k for a used one (as many are going for on Ebay)
And i'd be worried about burn in for use as a PC monitor. (For games and videos. I'd probably swap it out with my normal monitor for web browsing and stuff on a vesa mount)

What I wouldn't give for readily available 1080p or 1440p OLEDs that aren't so expensive.

I mean, I can afford it. But I can't pull the trigger.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:28 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 708
I got a chance to test the BKM-227 analogue option input on the F250 and performance was indeed the same as when feeding 480i (and its hacks like "240p") via HDMI. It's nice to have however for direct S-video and composite inputs. I have a few clips below, though my camera failed massively to pick up the awesome colors correctly.

This monitor is tragically close to being able to display a true "240p" 15khz signal. It shows a picture with "scanlines" (even on the OSD items like on a CRT BVM), but the picture is unstable and wobbles cyclically:

https://youtu.be/l2R1DpdlHVA (NESRGB)
https://youtu.be/VfilspbMdBA (PC-FX + OSD)
https://youtu.be/9ZCcacUAE34 (PC-FX)

Is it due to a sync issue? This does make me wonder what things would look like using the RGB card and different types of external sync, though I bet the results would be similar. It's sad because for an instant I can see a perfect 240p image, as crisp as on a CRT, albeit with inorganic-looking even scanlines.

The best solution for these older systems may be the most simple of line doublers, ideally with a scanline function, since 480p looks so good on this monitor. Anything that doesn't mess with the picture or colors would be ideal, since the monitor's colors and gamma can already look exactly like a BVM CRT (which is literally one of the gamma options paired with the SMPTE-C and EBU color space options). Maybe one of the older XRGB units? I suppose an OSSC would be fine, but those would most definitely alter the colors from what I've experienced.

480i as expected looks great (clip is X2 native scale, X1 looks even better but is tiny).

https://youtu.be/pd1to0yrtFo (Dreamcast)

I didn't capture anything using composite, but I did check it out and it looks, well, like composite on a CRT, which is impressive. There's quite a bit of shimmering with the default "3lines" comb filter, but the "3D" comb filter cleans it up very well without losing sharpness. I didn't look at much so I'm not sure in general which filter would be preferable.

Again I continue to be very impressed with this monitor for what it can do. If only it could have handled low res 15khz it would be almost a BVM CRT killer. On the other hand, while its blacks obviously beat the D24 (which is still pretty close in a pitch black room!), it doesn't match the peak brightness/highlights of the CRT unless I crank up the contrast to the point that the "over range" nag LED turns on. Could it be that this RGB OLED has less dynamic range than the CRT? As far as I know I'm not clipping whites on my CRT, though I did increase the sub contrast a bit to make it more punchy. Maybe this is the weakness of RGB OLED, which is why they're not being made anymore. Sony moved back to LCD (though a very nice one) for its current line of BVMs (HX-310). HDR killed RGB OLED, and in a few years it'll be even more of a dead tech than CRT. Hopefully we can again pick up the scraps for the next few years.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:12 pm 


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Sony only moved back to LCD because of the HDR brightness requirements. Is it possible that you're running your CRTs with higher white levels than usually recommended? Without measuring I would say that the subjective brightness on my CRT BVMs is identical to what I see on the OLEDs.

And thanks for testing 240p on the s-video add-on card!


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:52 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 708
Fudoh wrote:
Sony only moved back to LCD because of the HDR brightness requirements. Is it possible that you're running your CRTs with higher white levels than usually recommended? Without measuring I would say that the subjective brightness on my CRT BVMs is identical to what I see on the OLEDs.

And thanks for testing 240p on the s-video add-on card!


You know, it probably has the white levels a bit higher than standard. But I'm just too used to it by now. These OLED panels don't get darker over time, do they? And this one only has 5000 hours which I assume is not that much.

The next thing I want to try is "super resolutions" for 240p. I imagine those would be fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:42 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
These OLED panels don't get darker over time, do they?


Fudoh mentioned that OLEDs lose half of their brightness after 30000 hours.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:34 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 708
Lawfer wrote:
Fudoh mentioned that OLEDs lose half of their brightness after 30000 hours.


Yeah this one only has around 5000 so it should be fine. I figured out the over range lamp comes up because interlace mode is on. Looks like the panel boosts light output to compensate for the brightness hit that would otherwise appear by the interlace effect. Bless Sony.

I also tried using a 240p super resolution via Retroarch from a Raspberry Pi and the monitor shows a picture for half a second and then loses sync. I'll give it a try again via a PC with custom resolution eventually.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:29 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 708
@Fudoh, were you able to use your OSSC with your E250 for anything above line2x? I just tested on my F250 and it won't sync to anything other than line2x. If you made it work, did you have to change any settings on the OSSC or monitor for compatibility?

I guess the one thing that impresses me the most is that 240p/480i transitions are very fast on this monitor. It's faster when you choose line2x(bob) for 480i, it only loses sync for about half a second, whereas it's a second when set to passthrough. Games with transitions are totally playable.

Line2x looks very good given how well the monitor can display 480p in native scan, but I was hoping to see how higher line multiplications would look like on this monitor.


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