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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:27 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2013
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Xyga wrote:
Yes mobile-sized displays, but imagine how much time will pass before monitor, then TV-sized panels will be manufactured at reasonable cost?

Took LCD and OLED well over a decade and more about two decades from the first consumer market applications with tiny screens to broadly available and affordable large monitors and TVs.

Micro-LED is merely emerging. Again; TV-sized Micro-LED displays right now exist, but cost about the price of a house or a supercar.

They're sampling them now and looking to ship by the end of the year according to this:
https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20180619PD201.html

Whether or not they'll require lopping off limbs will be interesting to see if they make their date.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:35 pm 


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There's a little confusion here, this is mini-LED backit LCD, completely different from Micro-LED. ^^
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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:56 am 



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Samsung did launch a first-wave OLED alongside LG. This was back in, what - 2012 or so? The Samsung was straight RGB OLED while the LG, like their current sets, used a color filter.

Samsung did not see a production path whereby costs could be brought down reasonably, which is why they quickly exited the segment. LG took a gamble and bought exclusive rights to the color-filter version from Kodak. This was the only version of the technology where reasonable consumer-level mass production was feasible, concerns about the filter aside.

It's worth noting that whatever a purist may say about the technology, reviews of these original Samsung and LG sets were very comparable, with reception 100% focusing on OLED being a clear step forward in several aspects of picture quality, and not in any degree on one company's version of it having a noticeable difference in look than the other's.

As for MicroLED, it's important to keep in mind how long it takes new technologies to take over markets historically, and how often unanticipated roadblocks come up. Remember SED/NED was supposed to be the successor to plasma long before OLED was even considered (2006-era). It never even came to market and most of you probably won't even recognize the term. Bottom line, MicroLED probably will NOT ascend as easily as its proponents would like, and even if it does - no reason to conclude that makes OLED a "dead end". It is here now, quite worthwhile, and LG is in whole-hog. One or the other could triumph, or they could coexist. Too early to tell.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:11 pm 


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I might add that I deem OLED a "dead end" because I don't think its inherent limitations (that is: life time of the diodes) can ever be overcome.
I didn't mean to say it isn't commercially worthwhile - it obviously is and will be in the foreseeable future!


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:53 pm 


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It's the eventuality of localized burn-in under specific stress that bothers people (specifically gamers of course), not the actual overall lifespan performance, because in that area OLED isn't worse than plasma and ccfl.

Also the better the displays become, the higher our expectactions. Flat panels are efficient consumer OCD-fueling material. ^^
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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:09 pm 


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Well, burn in is a symptom of the limited life span of the diodes. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:42 pm 


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This is not how I see it; we know it's shortened under specific strain (in particular static colors) but if there isn't too much of that on a daily basis, the OLED overall will last as long as a plasma or ccfl could before showing serious signs of losing global colors balance, brightness etc.
But of course no one is happy to have to mind the display while they're busy playing, working, whatever is posing a problem.
If manufacturers had balls they'd flat-out rate their displays for specific usages, for which sensitive ones like OLED would be "safe for watching movies, not recommended for sports & games", this way consumer criticism about the weaknesses of the display tech would be less... (and the sales too! heh :mrgreen: )
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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:15 pm 



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Yeah, I was concerned about panel life at the beginning of LG's push for the technology, but we're now 4 years in with no outcry about dying TVs, either among general consumers or high-end enthusiasts. That's good enough to ease my fears.

As for gaming burn-in specifically, have you guys heard actual examples? Again, having heard very little since LG has had a focused product line, I've likened it to the fear associated with plasma - something that got into the general public mindset and doomed the technology despite having no practical validity. I say this as someone who took the risk on a plasma and found out through actual ownership that there was zero issue with responsible usage.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:38 am 


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I found another true RGB OLED here:

The Asus ProArt PQ22UC

https://www.asus.com/us/Monitors/PQ22UC/

https://edgeup.asus.com/2018/monitors-m ... screen-go/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monitors/comme ... ate_price/


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:55 am 


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not yet released though.

I'm waiting for it. Will definitely get one to compare it to my OLED PVMs. 4K on Asus' side, but "rolling scan" on the Sony's side. A shame though that the Asus is only 21.6". They could at least have gone for 24 or 27". The Sonys are 25".

I don't think it will be as expensive. Dell basically had to can their OLED monitor because of the pricing. If Asus wants to move ANY numbers, they can't ask $5000.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:01 am 


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You have those crazy Sonys with rolling scan ? *drool*
How good is it in practice ?
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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:56 am 


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fantastic. The BVM OLEDs supposedly use a narrower band of pixels that's visible at any moment in time to even further enhance the motion response, but the 25" PVMs are *really* good (and the BVMs are so much more expensive). And in terms of 2nd hand pricing we're getting very close to what people tend to pay for a 24" BVM CRT in great condition.

I have the heavy duty 2541 and the A250 which easily lost a third of the weight compared to the 2541.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:09 am 


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And the rolling scan feature, how well does it work against motion blur ?
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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:14 am 


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Remember that it's an OLED, so you don't exactly get motion blur anyway, you just get the lower perceived motion resolution caused by sample & hold handling of the screen. The rolling scan is easier on the eyes compared to the 60Hz BFI you get on LCDs. It's also not causing any double images (at least I haven't noticed any yet, might need to check with 30fps content). Still MOST people will obviously prefer the flicker free mode.

Haven't tried the OLEDs in tate yet though. The Sonys have small feet, so I need to get a tate-able stand first.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:35 am 


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You got two oled PVMs and not yet done a Fudoh's ode to new display technology? I'm disappoint :!:


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:46 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
Remember that it's an OLED, so you don't exactly get motion blur anyway, you just get the lower perceived motion resolution caused by sample & hold handling of the screen.

Rather in this case I would have said 'ghosting', and for sample and hold-induced blur some use the term 'motion blur', but now I use the latter as portmanteau for all the types of blur. I know the risks but...
It's kind of the same situation as with 'scanlines', which I often consciously use wrong way but differently depending who/circumstances. :mrgreen: :oops:

Fudoh wrote:
The rolling scan is easier on the eyes compared to the 60Hz BFI you get on LCDs. It's also not causing any double images (at least I haven't noticed any yet, might need to check with 30fps content).

That was expected but good to hear from a trusted user actually trying games with it.
How's the hit on brightness ? (if any)

Fudoh wrote:
Still MOST people will obviously prefer the flicker free mode.

You know that's another dangerous term to use! :wink:

Fudoh wrote:
Haven't tried the OLEDs in tate yet though. The Sonys have small feet, so I need to get a tate-able stand first.

BTW do any of the larger models (like X300, X550) feature rolling scan as well ? it's never mentioned this way in Sony's product pages so I was wondering.
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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:50 am 


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Quote:
How's the hit on brightness ? (if any)

minimal on the 2541 and non existent on the A250 (it auto compensates the brightness when you switch between the modes).

Quote:
BTW do any of the larger models (like X300, X550) feature rolling scan as well ?

the X300 does, but no idea about the large one. I would suspect the X550 to use a consumer panel instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:56 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
minimal on the 2541 and non existent on the A250 (it auto compensates the brightness when you switch between the modes).

Well, that's high-class stuff here! aargh, why don't we have this on consumer TVs and monitors yet, sigh *old man shouting at manufacturers*
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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:00 pm 


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Thomago wrote:
I might add that I deem OLED a "dead end" because I don't think its inherent limitations (that is: life time of the diodes) can ever be overcome.
I didn't mean to say it isn't commercially worthwhile - it obviously is and will be in the foreseeable future!


so, dead-end wise. i don't think it's completely hopeless. there are many things that can be done to alter the chemistry of the materials whoch could effect things like image retention. in combination with next gen anti burn in measures, you could see oled surpass trad lcd in lifespan. whether or not manufacturers choose to implement those technologies on cel phones is another story


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:45 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
fantastic. The BVM OLEDs supposedly use a narrower band of pixels that's visible at any moment in time to even further enhance the motion response, but the 25" PVMs are *really* good (and the BVMs are so much more expensive).


Oh come on don't be like that, just look at this 30" True-RGB 4K Real OLED beauty:

https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/oled-mo ... vm-x300-v2

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-oled-tv/

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-oled-tv/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESzWY0hW85Y

Only 45k and it's yours!


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:58 pm 


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gobsmacked

To be fair I think the 32" CRT BVM back then was even more expensive
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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:58 pm 


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For 2541/a and the A250, they accept 240p on hdmi interface if i use ossc in Passthru 240p signal ?
If yes what are the quality show in 240p/ 480i/p ? Some photo are possible ?
They not have Interlace display mode like the bvm so may be not good .


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:36 pm 


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The 2541 has four differemt deinterlacing modes, incl. an interlaced simulation mode. The A250 has lost this (probably in favor of the BVMs). I haven't tried 240p passthrough. Will do someday. What's the point though ? Do you expect great upscaling from a 240p source ? I don't. You really need that integer prescale (3x or 4x) to get great results on FHD or 4K screens.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:00 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
The 2541 has four differemt deinterlacing modes, incl. an interlaced simulation mode. The A250 has lost this (probably in favor of the BVMs). I haven't tried 240p passthrough. Will do someday. What's the point though ? Do you expect great upscaling from a 240p source ? I don't. You really need that integer prescale (3x or 4x) to get great results on FHD or 4K screens.


Out of curiosity, how does the the 720p scaling goes?


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:15 am 


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pretty nice. I have a Pi3 hooked up and it does output 720p (due to performance reasons and for best possible scanlines) and it looks really good on the PVM.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:11 pm 


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I may be interested by a pvm-2541 but seem hard to find in used condition (missed one for 1250€ with only 1900h in ebay last month :( ).

Anyone have a lead to find one in Europe ? Maybe you (Fudoh) in germany , your was buyed new ?


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:02 pm 


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1,250 EUR would have been quite a bargain. I've seen the 17" models sell for 1,600+ EUR already. I bought both of mine 2nd hand. Both with about 1000 hours on it. The 2541 was about 1,700 EUR and the A250 was about 2,000 EUR.

Still very hard to find. I would imagine that you might have more luck on some dedicated video editing boards, where people actually use these for their intended purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:31 pm 


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Price for a new A250 is 5k: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _oled.html

There's all kind of prices, from 4k for a 17" PVM to 40k for a 30" BVM: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?c ... 083%7coled

So yeah 1250 Euro for a 2541 (which was replaced by the A250) was quite a nice deal as Fudoh said, especially considering that it had an operation time of "only" 1900h.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:00 pm 


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Yes i searching for less that 2,000€, but for now all the company i contacted in france, not many answer.
maybe i have to wait one or two more year to make it less dificult to find.

2000€ for a a250 seem a good price when you see them used near 4000€.


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 Post subject: Re: Have any manufacturers ever made true RGB OLED screens?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Remember that it's an OLED, so you don't exactly get motion blur anyway, you just get the lower perceived motion resolution caused by sample & hold handling of the screen. The rolling scan is easier on the eyes compared to the 60Hz BFI you get on LCDs. It's also not causing any double images (at least I haven't noticed any yet, might need to check with 30fps content). Still MOST people will obviously prefer the flicker free mode.

Haven't tried the OLEDs in tate yet though. The Sonys have small feet, so I need to get a tate-able stand first.


Hope this is not old enough to be considered a necro bump. I recently got my hands on a BVM-F250, part of the same line of the PVM-2541. I'm trying to figure out how to activate the rolling scan. Is it only for interlaced signals? What is the setting called on the PVMs? Is it only usable via the i/p settings?

On the F250, when I feed it an interlaced signal, like 15khz 480i or a 1080i signal (only tested via HDMI), it is possible to turn on/off the "Interlace" function within the "Function Switch" menu. Enabling this function produces a look that is very similar to interlaced content displayed on a CRT BVM. Is this the rolling scan in action?

When a progressive signal is displayed, the above function is disabled. Does that mean that for progressive signals it's not possible to enjoy the persistence blur clearing effect of the rolling scan?


On a separate matter, has anyone tried one of these with one of the analogue input options and tested sending "240p" 15khz signals to it? With how good the interlaced function looks, I imagine the "double strike" picture of "240p" content would look great, though when I sent it a 240p signal from a Raspberry Pi via HDMI I only got a wobbly and interlaced looking picture.


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