SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

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BazookaBen
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by BazookaBen »

Cool product. Would be perfect for anybody using PVM and BVM, or any external RGB>Component converter like the Audio Authority 9A60.

I've already added internal capacitors to my SNES Jr though, so I'd have to bypass these caps somehow if I got this.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by maxtherabbit »

thebigcheese wrote:Couple of thoughts for you.

-I am very intrigued by this as d-sub connectors are definitely more convenient and take up a ton less space, but I have already invested hundreds of dollars in SCART cables and a fancy switcher. I suspect that is the case with many people here, so no matter how cool this is, it's going to be a bit of a battle getting people to re-invest when there will be little or no visual difference. Having said that, people who haven't already invested might be more inclined to buy.
SCART MUST DIE

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Chipnetics
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

BazookaBen wrote: I've already added internal capacitors to my SNES Jr though, so I'd have to bypass these caps somehow if I got this.
If you're interested I can put 0 ohm resistors in place of the caps.
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BazookaBen
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by BazookaBen »

8bitgasm wrote:If you're interested I can put 0 ohm resistors in place of the caps.
I have one I hacked together already that works OK, but it's not very sturdy (just wires soldered to an old AV plug).

But really I need something like this for all my 16 and 32 bit consoles. Do you think this board would be fairly easy to hack into Sony and Sega connectors as well? I know with Genesis and Saturn I'd need to add a short run of cable to it. since it wouldn't fit in those 9/10 pin barrels.
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Chipnetics
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

Hi all, sorry for the delay - life gets in the way. I measured the back of the console from the rearrest of the SNES to where the supplied VGA cable (pictured) can safely bend and there is a 4 inch clearance.

I played with some alternate designs with Phono RCA jacks and the D-sub but the SNES 10v barrel connector is in the way for any feasible design. It only leaves a workable footprint space to the left of the AV-out which means you'd have to have the D-sub on the top and the phono RCA jack flipped on the underside of the board, which means I'd have to get into using surface mount everywhere and the component and assembly costs becomes too unreasonable.

For that reason I'm going to leave the design for SyncBaby as it is; as I have developed a "new" separate project (a modified syncstrike) which I hope to release in the coming month that will use the LMH1980 (instead of the LM1881) for true hsync, will have both phono and 3.5mm jack, and use the classic SCART connector so it can be used with all the various systems.

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Chipnetics
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

Additionally, a side-view of the SyncBaby!

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Chipnetics
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

Hi guys - resurrecting this thread to throw it out there that the SyncBaby works excellent with the original Playstation 1.

I did continuity tests on the factory AV out against the PCB through holes, (will post diagram when home - I couldn't fine one online), then de-soldered the AV adapter to make way for the SyncBaby. De-soldering is pretty easy and straight forward with solderwick.

I then cut 30AWG wires couple inches long and soldered them to the SyncBaby edge connector with respect to the pinouts I determined.

Amazingly the dimensions of the SyncBaby work out very well... the metal screw-down tray (not pictured) is the perfect height to apply pressure on the rear of the board, while the edges of the SyncBaby perfectly pinch between the top and bottom of the Playstation enclosure. There is adequate pressure points all around to have a firmly seated board.

If 4 or 5 people are interested I will make Playstation 1 boards that can be directly soldered - let me know. In the meantime this is a relatively easy hack.

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Syntax
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Syntax »

If your making one just for PS1 you should ditch the stripper and just tap the Csync signal available.
Maybe buffer it.
nmalinoski
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by nmalinoski »

Syntax wrote:If your making one just for PS1 you should ditch the stripper and just tap the Csync signal available.
Maybe buffer it.
According to gamesx, horizontal and vertical sync can be tapped from vias and pads on the motherboard, so you can probably just build a passive breakout. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Maybe buffer like Syntax suggested.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by maxtherabbit »

nmalinoski wrote:
Syntax wrote:If your making one just for PS1 you should ditch the stripper and just tap the Csync signal available.
Maybe buffer it.
According to gamesx, horizontal and vertical sync can be tapped from vias and pads on the motherboard, so you can probably just build a passive breakout. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Maybe buffer like Syntax suggested.
+1
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Syntax
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Syntax »

I can not think of any reason one would use separate H V sync signals for a 15k system. Pretty much anything that accepts a 15k signal wants Csync.
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by nmalinoski »

Syntax wrote:I can not think of any reason one would use separate H V sync signals for a 15k system. Pretty much anything that accepts a 15k signal wants Csync.
That's probably a more of a question or issue for the SyncBaby line in general, because its goal is to get 15kHz RGBHV output from RGBS-capable consoles.

Personally, I'd be satisfied with a short dongle that just gave me RGBS with clean sync via DE-15 and stereo RCA, so we can take advantage of cheaper (compared to SCART) VGA cables, switches, and BNC adapters.

(I do have a VGA dongle from the PS2 Linux kit lying around; I wonder if the sync line is even connected.)
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Syntax
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Syntax »

No where do I read that the SyncBaby outputs H and V sync.
The goal seems to be getting RGB Clean Sync TTL from RGB Composite video for sync consoles.
It uses a LM1881 which can only produce Csync and Vsync.

Like I said there really nothing out there that wants H and V sync for a 15K signal, I was under the impression these were being made to easily interface Extron VGA units and 15k VGA capable monitors(which all accept csync).

Your VGA dongle for PS2 wont have anything on the sync line, it will only work with a Sync on Green monitor.
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by thebigcheese »

Syntax wrote:No where do I read that the SyncBaby outputs H and V sync.
Back on page one it says "The output is RGBHV with csync acting as hsync. I have a 'true' hsync implementation but it's a more expensive design that isn't required as it appears every monitor/doubler is okay with csync as hsync. :wink:" So the goal seems to be to have some semblance of HV, but it is not actual HV.

Is there any intention of making a version that just plugs directly into the PS1 without needing to mod it? It seems (no offense) kinda silly to go through all this hassle of modding the system when it already outputs RGB natively. Could just buy a VGA cable from Retro Access (with their new custom cable maker), for example, and not have to do any modding.
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Syntax
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Syntax »

thebigcheese wrote: Is there any intention of making a version that just plugs directly into the PS1 without needing to mod it? It seems (no offense) kinda silly to go through all this hassle of modding the system when it already outputs RGB natively. Could just buy a VGA cable from Retro Access (with their new custom cable maker), for example, and not have to do any modding.
+1
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maxtherabbit
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by maxtherabbit »

there are a variety of consumer LCD monitors that accept 15kHz over VGA but require separate sync, also plenty of pro CRTs that will take separate
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Chipnetics
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

Syntax wrote:If your making one just for PS1 you should ditch the stripper and just tap the Csync signal available.
Maybe buffer it.
The LM1881 needs the Composite Sync to strip Vsync and Csync out, there's no Vsync right off the AV connector pins. As someone else mentioned, you can get raw Vsync off the graphics chip (I think it's the CXA1645M chip), but really I wouldn't want to have a design that has also requires wires running all over the board when it can be done right off the edge of the motherboard in one clean succinct design.

Furthermore the LM1881 cleans/buffers the LM1881, so if I'm going to buffer the sync signal I may as well just run it through the LM1881 itself - it's a pretty cheap integrated circuit.

To clarify, the SyncBaby outputs Vsync and the Hsync is actually Csync, but most monitors - if not all - are okay with this.
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

thebigcheese wrote:
Syntax wrote: Is there any intention of making a version that just plugs directly into the PS1 without needing to mod it? It seems (no offense) kinda silly to go through all this hassle of modding the system when it already outputs RGB natively. Could just buy a VGA cable from Retro Access (with their new custom cable maker), for example, and not have to do any modding.
I'll think about this, I didn't really crack open a AV cable to see if there is enough room to work with.
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

Syntax wrote: Like I said there really nothing out there that wants H and V sync for a 15K signal, I was under the impression these were being made to easily interface Extron VGA units and 15k VGA capable monitors(which all accept csync).
I'll be honest I don't totally understand, on a VGA d-sub pin-out there is no single pin that transmits csync... There are vsync and hsync pinouts.

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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by bobrocks95 »

8bitgasm wrote:
Syntax wrote: Like I said there really nothing out there that wants H and V sync for a 15K signal, I was under the impression these were being made to easily interface Extron VGA units and 15k VGA capable monitors(which all accept csync).
I'll be honest I don't totally understand, on a VGA d-sub pin-out there is no single pin that transmits csync... There are vsync and hsync pinouts.

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Extrons and presumably the monitors Syntax is talking about will accept CSync over the HSync pin.
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gompertz
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by gompertz »

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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by maxtherabbit »

So what's the end game here? Are you going to eventually make a sync baby with a PSX AV plug like the SNES one?

If so, by all means keep the sync stripper. If not, what difference does it make where you have to solder from if soldering is required?
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by maxtherabbit »

bobrocks95 wrote:
8bitgasm wrote:
Syntax wrote: Like I said there really nothing out there that wants H and V sync for a 15K signal, I was under the impression these were being made to easily interface Extron VGA units and 15k VGA capable monitors(which all accept csync).
I'll be honest I don't totally understand, on a VGA d-sub pin-out there is no single pin that transmits csync... There are vsync and hsync pinouts.

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Extrons and presumably the monitors Syntax is talking about will accept CSync over the HSync pin.
c sync on pin 13 (and sometimes also nothing on pin 14) is a valid pinout - I don't know if it was ever codified into a spec at any point, but it's a standard practice for sending RGBS over HD-15 connector

that's not to say that all display devices with a VGA connector will accept it however
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Syntax
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Syntax »

I have an old monitor similar to a commodore 1084s.

It accepts 15k rgbs and 31k rgbhv.
Won't take 15k rgbhv and I'd love someone to recommend a monitor which does.

From personal experience if your monitor can handle h v sync the picture centers much better.
This is with a ps2.

I also bet most monitors that will accept csync on the hsync pin is not looking at vsync.

Try it, cut your vsync line and see if theres a difference in your test monitors.
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

Syntax wrote: I also bet most monitors that will accept csync on the hsync pin is not looking at vsync.

Try it, cut your vsync line and see if theres a difference in your test monitors.
Interesting test... I'll give it a swing on my 15khz projector and see what happens. Be nice if some other people can test with theirs as well.
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Chipnetics
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

maxtherabbit wrote:So what's the end game here? Are you going to eventually make a sync baby with a PSX AV plug like the SNES one?

If so, by all means keep the sync stripper. If not, what difference does it make where you have to solder from if soldering is required?
I'll probably end up doing both, but will do the board version first.

It looks like I was able to post under some other username (not mine) using the Tapatalk app from Google Play, even though I'm logged in as myself... very odd.
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by rama »

Just for ease of mind, could you consider an optional strain relief?
It just needs to be a plastic extension that reaches to the surface, one that will carry the load of the VGA cable.
As it is, the extension will put a lot of stress onto the SNES connector.
A relief would be a cheap and effective countermeasure, I think.

Regarding the PSX version, that would be great if it worked with both consoles.
I do have both consoles and I do struggle with all these cables ;p
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Chipnetics
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

Rama, ive been meaning to look into the strain relief via a standoff or something similar. But honestly there really is little to no strain. The Vga cable I include has a ferrite bead on it that holds most the cable up, and also the Super Nintendo AV port seats fairly deep into the console. It's a common worry though so probably something I'll try to get to in coming weeks. :)
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Re: SyncBaby - SNES AV Multi-out to VGA D-Sub

Post by Chipnetics »

Thought I would bump this as I am selling them again after not making for about a year. With the GBS control being so popular, it was a great chance to revisit this project.

Same design as before but I've modified the layout to use a surface mount LM1881 (rather than through-hole); and added a 3mm drill hit for a M3 screw to pass through the enclosure & pcb, for better integrity and build quality. (Also for those who were concerned about cable forces, you can therefore now use a standoff for added support.)

You can read more about the project here! --> https://www.tindie.com/products/chipnet ... o-adapter/

8)
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