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 Post subject: Scanline issues!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:19 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 6
I've searched for a answer or even the question being asked but to no avail.
The issue being with scanlines loosing definition with vertical scrolling games or just any vertical up or down motion of sprites etc
eg Elemental Master
Do anyone else get this!
I'm playing all my retro through an ossc to a benq gaming monitor HDMI. picture looks great still or horizontal scrolling just the vertical movement looses the lines slightly, eg Ghouls and ghosts jumping!

I've an slg 3000 which I'm going to try with the dreamcast direct vga but cant find were i've put it so might have to wait for my toro to arrive!


Thanks

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Scanline issues!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:38 pm 


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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11159
Location: Germany
it's normal. Doesn't matter if you're using a CRT or LCD.

I'm pretty sure it's an eye coordination thing, but I'd still like a proper explanantion for the effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Scanline issues!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:43 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 6
you could be right because has your eyes move round the screen some bits appear sharp,

I thought it could be a issue with the response rate of the monitor but im sure its max 3ms


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 Post subject: Re: Scanline issues!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:16 pm 


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Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6188
Location: Craig's
As they say it's normal, but motion perception on most LCDs isn't nearly as good as on CRTs for several reasons, so they make it harder.

If you increase the multiple on the OSSC (x4 or x5 assuming your monitor can handle these) you will gain more sharpness, which in practice improves motion clarity a bit.

You might also want to check if your monitor's overdrive is on, iirc it's called 'AMA' on BenQ monitors. This is used to increase the LCD's response times.
Typically the middle setting is balanced and recommended, and the faster one is a bit too much (it'll be snappier but you might see some color sticking artifacts or dark ghost afterimages)

It would also help to use rather high hybrid scanlines strenght settings, so the fake lines aren't too prominent on the bright parts of the picture and don't get too much in the way.

In any case don't expect too much, playing with simulated scanlines over an LCD can only bring this much realism.

Personally there's a lot of games for which I leave the scanlines off and simply set a lower multiple mode (2x or 3x), sometimes mixed with a hint of reduced sharpness from my monitor's settings. And well once you find a good balance it can look good-enough like this and be more comfortable for playing.



PS: ways to improve scanlines imitation on a flat panel include higher refresh rate panels and use of emulation, or interpolation (tv soap opera effect), or strobing, OLED (for its instant-pixel-response) etc, but no solution money can buy at the moment is considered perfect yet.
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 Post subject: Re: Scanline issues!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:03 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 6
Thanks for the reply. Much apricated.

When you think your nearly at perfection another hurdle gets in the way haha

Suppose its all part of the fun .

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Scanline issues!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:02 pm 



Joined: 12 Sep 2012
Posts: 135
Fudoh wrote:
it's normal. Doesn't matter if you're using a CRT or LCD.

I'm pretty sure it's an eye coordination thing, but I'd still like a proper explanantion for the effect.


Isn't it just a side effect of the retina persistence of vision ?


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 Post subject: Re: Scanline issues!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:24 pm 


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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11159
Location: Germany
maybe. It's still a weird effect though. Sometimes you can manage to follow a sprite with your eyes while it's crossing scanlines and it will retain it's scanlined look.

Also, technically, always the same horizontal lines stay dark. And since sprites don't move in half-pixel steps, but only a full pixel / line at a time, it's also always the same lines within a sprite that stay dark. Still when crossing any scanlines it looks as if it's being displayed interlaced instead of progressive.

I would guess that this is one reason why in the arcades the monitor orientation was choosen to match the scrolling direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Scanline issues!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:04 pm 



Joined: 12 Sep 2012
Posts: 135
For me it's the same optical illusion than these :

https://www.testufo.com/persistence
https://www.testufo.com/eyetracking


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 Post subject: Re: Scanline issues!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:19 am 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 836
Location: Australia
Try eating something crunchy and watch your screen at the same time it always catches me off guard.


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 Post subject: Re: Scanline issues!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:29 am 


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Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 186
Location: Italy
Fudoh wrote:
it's normal. Doesn't matter if you're using a CRT or LCD.

I'm pretty sure it's an eye coordination thing, but I'd still like a proper explanantion for the effect.

Yeah, it also seems to depend on scrolling speed. With a Mega Drive you can do alot of interesting tests.
Raiden Densetsu is pretty slow, and I can properly recognize scanlines during gameplay. On the other hand, I can't with Musha Aleste, even though - when I just focus on the main sprite during attract mode and follow it - they suddenly become apparent all around it. Finally, during the intro of Gunstar Heroes, there's a scene with buildings scrolling vertically so fast, scanlines become fully visible again.

Syntax wrote:
Try eating something crunchy and watch your screen at the same time it always catches me off guard.

Haha, this too. :)


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