Will upscaled 1080p on a 4K TV ever look as clean as native?

[andykara2003]

I've always used Panasonic plasmas for HD consoles - I have a tx-p50gt60b at the moment. I like the way the plasmas display 1080p content - the image is clean and sharp, but doesn't emphasize pixelation as much as LCDs do.

I'll be looking to buy a 4K OLED at some point - I'm waiting for variable frame rate as I'm thinking the next gen consoles will have this. The thing is that I'll want to come back to play my pre-4K HD consoles in the years to come and I'll want to be able to display them with the cleanest image possible.

I haven't had a huge amount of experience with 1080p on 4K TVs but I have tested the Sony A1 OLED with my switch and although I liked other qualities of the image, I didn't feel 1080p looked as crisp as my plasma even though it's got a reputation for excellent upscaling. I tend to sit fairly close to a 50" screen (5-6 feet) and I found the slight smearing of the image resulting from the TV's upscaling to be distracting.

My question is this: have we reached the full potential of 1080p upscaling on 4K screens yet? We have either a slight 'smear' where the TV attempts to smooth the image to 4K or an increase in pixellation where the TV just doubles the pixels vertically and horizontally (pixel doubling?).

I'm wondering whether to keep my plasma for future use with HD consoles or whether I can just get rid of it, which I'd rather do in terms of practicality. I have a hunch that even with future advances, it might actually be an impossibility to get the 1080p image as clean as when it's displayed natively. Perhaps it'll take an 8k screen to have enough pixels to do the clean pixel-double while subtly smoothing that out without resorting to the existing smeary/pixellated algorithms.

I'd be grateful for any wisdom on this..

[Lawfer]

I haven't had a huge amount of experience with 1080p on 4K TVs but I have tested the Sony A1 OLED with my switch and although I liked other qualities of the image, I didn't feel 1080p looked as crisp as my plasma even though it's got a reputation for excellent upscaling. I tend to sit fairly close to a 50" screen (5-6 feet) and I found the slight smearing of the image resulting from the TV's upscaling to be distracting.

Well that's the answer I suppose, you could try to get a 4:4:4 4K processor such as the:

Extron DSC HD HD 4K Plus A: https://www.ampronix.com/extron-dsc-hdh ... 57301.html

Crestron HD-WP-4K-401-C: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... No=6270033

Brompton SX40

But yeah, I talked about this in another thread, to get the sharpest picture I am staying on 1080p, this way 1080p will look the sharpest and any resolution above 1080p (such as 4k), will be supersampled to 1080p.

Not paying 4k to get a... 4K video processor.

If you REALLY want 4K, either just get a 4K TV in a few years (I don't recommend getting one now, because now it's still just HDMI 2.0 and as a rule console video games are pretty much still on 1080p/60 AT BEST) and let the TV do the scaling and deal with the fact that 1080p won't look as good as it would on a 1080p TV, or get one of these 4K/60 4:4:4 Video Processors, this way you can upscale 480p/720p/1080p/1440p to 4K.

[Fudoh]

his question has a slightly different background.

The reason why 1080p on the plasma is pleasing for you is due to the panel's structure. Kinda like a picture with scanlines compared with one without, but on a much smaller level. On a 4K screen you're missing this structure. That's why Panasonic's 1:4 next neighbour upscale (which they utilize on some 4K OLEDs and LCDs) is too sharp for you and that's why regular upscaling looks different to you (although it's not really less sharp what your Plasma produces, it's just missing the pixel seperation you now have due to the plasma cells).

An external 4:4:4 4K upscaler is nice to have, but it doesn't solve this problem for you. The result's the same as using Panasonic's 1:4 algorithm.

[Lawfer]

his question has a slightly different background.

So it's an issue of picture difference between Plasma and OLED rather than native resolution inequalities?

[Xyga]

I don't think Fudoh is implying that the upscaling doesn't play a role degrading the PQ in general there.
1:1 is always better, but plasmas were nice for more than just that.
Personally I'm keeping a couple Full-HD displays probably for a long time, but I regret not having secured a good plasma one.

[Xaranar]

You’d think that scaling 1080p to 4K would be easy, as you just have to duplicate each pixel in both directions.

[Xyga]

Several sets do it without any issues but of course it looks a tiny bit pixelated. It's softening the scaled picture that makes things complicated.

[ASDR]

as a rule console video games are pretty much still on 1080p/60 AT BEST

Virtually every 3D game now supports some resolution >1080p & HDR on PS4 Pro / XBox One X.

[andykara2003]

Thanks everyone for the comments - that clears things up hugely.

I don't think Fudoh is implying that the upscaling doesn't play a role degrading the PQ in general there.
1:1 is always better, but plasmas were nice for more than just that.

Exactly - it's both the upscaling and how I even prefer 1080p on a plasma to 1080p on an LCD due to the pixture structure showing less pixellation.

The reason why 1080p on the plasma is pleasing for you is due to the panel's structure. Kinda like a picture with scanlines compared with one without, but on a much smaller level. On a 4K screen you're missing this structure.

Thanks, this is perfectly put - and it'd never occurred to me that this could be analagous to the effect of scanlines. If you like less pixelated images like I do, at 1080p the plasma pixels are more 'forgiving' than LCD type pixels even on 1080p LCDs.

Virtually every 3D game now supports some resolution >1080p & HDR on PS4 Pro / XBox One X.

I do have a PS4 pro, although several of the games I play (Tomb raider, God of war 4, Shadow of the colossus, Last guardian etc.) have an option to play either in high framerate mode (often 1080p60) or a higher resolution mode. I will always go for a higher framerate over 4K as framerate is much more important to me. Also, I love my Switch, PS3 WiiU etc. so those consoles factor in as well.


The only downside to the plasmas for me is that they lose brightness over time. My current plasma has over 7000 hours so I'll keep using that for TV and gaming for now and keep an eye out for a similar model with much lower hours to keep for legacy gaming in the future. I've had some luck getting the hours from sellers by giving instructions for getting them from the service menu, so eventually I'll hopefully come across one that hasn't been used too much and has under say 3000 hours - and that'll be my 'legacy' plasma for the future.

[Xyga]

1080p can look pretty awesome on a LCD or OLED too even with the different pixel structures, but there's a ton more stuff to consider before reaching a result that can reasonably compete with 1080p plasma.

Anyway without entering into details and stuff, I think it's important to keep in mind this is a never-ending comedy. The market jump to 4K simply ruined the possibility of/interest in ever perfecting Full-HD whatever, and you can well imagine how long the play will go on if they keep manufacturing ever higher resolution panels for the sake of artificially sustaining sales.

[ZellSF]

The upscaling is easy to get perfect. Integer scaling. I'm of course talking about what's possible with today's tech, not necessarily what you can easily get your hands on.

Emulating the pixel structure of 1080p LCDs and/or plasmas? I'm sort of thinking that's never happening. Best we can hope for is some sort of smoothed scaling algorithm that looks close enough.

Anyway without entering into details and stuff, I think it's important to keep in mind this is a never-ending comedy.

This ends when we have high resolution enough content and displays that distinguishing details isn't possible for humans any longer. I'm thinking that when we get 16k TVs, no one is going to complain about how upscaled 8K content looks on them.

[Lawfer]

The only downside to the plasmas for me is that they lose brightness over time.

But that's the exact same problem with OLED too, if I remember correctly Fudoh told me that after 30,000 hours an OLED lose half it's brightmess, so say when you get a new OLED screen the brightness is at 100%, 30,000 hours later the brightness goes down to 50%.

[Xyga]

The upscaling is easy to get perfect. Integer scaling. I'm of course talking about what's possible with today's tech, not necessarily what you can easily get your hands on.

This was mentioned in the discussion of course. A number of TVs offer integer scaling though limited to 1080>4K, and from a PC it's not too hard to apply either. But it's still too visibly pixelated for most people to enjoy (combined with a hint of smoothing is much better but it is unfortunately not as straightforward as it sounds)

Emulating the pixel structure of 1080p LCDs and/or plasmas? I'm sort of thinking that's never happening.

Anyone actually proposed that? it sounds crazy and I don't think anyone will bother indeed.

Best we can hope for is some sort of smoothed scaling algorithm that looks close enough.

Doubt so, the problem that persists today since the beginning of fixed matrix displays is that smoothed resizing has already mostly shown its limits for a lot of sources and resolutions, and the better results come at a lot of processing pain and money.
Processing a multiplied then well downscaled picture is maybe a better direction, yet also not easy and ever-higher resolutions on the market make things more and more difficult as it's a race where real good scaling that unevitably demands power and research always lags behind.

This ends when we have high resolution enough content and displays that distinguishing details isn't possible for humans any longer. I'm thinking that when we get 16k TVs, no one is going to complain about how upscaled 8K content looks on them.

You will still see bad resizing on a 16K panel if that part hasn't been carefully minded, and if the lazy methods continue to dominate the market I predict it'll get worse and worse for legacy resolutions as manufacturers keep multiplying panel resolutions.

[ZellSF]

Emulating the pixel structure of 1080p LCDs and/or plasmas? I'm sort of thinking that's never happening.

Anyone actually proposed that? it sounds crazy and I don't think anyone will bother indeed.

If the end goal is making better quality displays that can display 1080p content as intended, then that's required. Unless you have a more concrete definition of what's missing from existing scaling solutions?

This ends when we have high resolution enough content and displays that distinguishing details isn't possible for humans any longer. I'm thinking that when we get 16k TVs, no one is going to complain about how upscaled 8K content looks on them.

You will still see bad resizing on a 16K panel if that part hasn't been carefully minded, and if the lazy methods continue to dominate the market I predict it'll get worse and worse for legacy resolutions as manufacturers keep multiplying panel resolutions.

There might be bad resizing on a 16K panel, but I really really doubt you would be able to detect that on a 8K source. Legacy content will of course always remain a problem, content designed around the flaws of display tech of the era they were made in.

[Xyga]

I've explained what I think of the current popular/widespread up'n'smooth scaling solutions, they've long shown their limits and the very best ones cost too much, but for better alternatives I'm not thinking of going as far as 'emulating' full-hd plasma and lcd panels, thats all. I'm not interested in waiting forever panels crazy-enough for that to happen, instead it'd be better for everyone if shit was taken care of more seriously in our present while it's still relatively doable if manufacturers cared, I've given the example of what's called for short downsampling these days even though it's not the easiest thing as well it can produce superior results. If there are more sound alternatives to explore wall that's good too.

There might be bad resizing on a 16K panel, but I really really doubt you would be able to detect that on a 8K source. Legacy content will of course always remain a problem, content designed around the flaws of display tech of the era they were made in.

Of course 8K over 16K will be hard as fuck to notice, but that'll happen in ages from now, and here we're talking about upscaling 1080p, and I said 8k or 16k panels won't make it better if the scaling method used is still the same old cost-effective up'n'smooth.

[Xer Xian]

I need to be within about half a meter / two feet from a 47" 1080p LCD to notice the pixel structure, trying to emulate that seems pointless to me, there's just no benefit from a sensible viewing distance.

A 1080p picture integer scaled to 4K should look pretty much the same on two panels that share the same size and technology (except for native resolution, haha) from a reasonable viewing distance where the pixel structure doesn't matter.

You could maybe consider getting the mCable gaming edition or similar to introduce some kind of picture smoothing, which I understand is a natural characteristic of plasma displays (plasma are also better in terms of motion clarity).

Edit: I might take that back regarding the mCable, looking at the picture comparisons here, I prefer the unadulterated version. The AA is quite subtle while edge enhancement/whatever it is, is too strong imho.

[andykara2003]

I need to be within about half a meter / two feet from a 47" 1080p LCD to notice the pixel structure.

I can see the difference between 1080p on the 55" A1 OLED or an LED and the 50" plasma at my viewing distance at 5-6ft. I understand that these are different technologies though.

[Xer Xian]

1) not the same panel technology

2) the A1 most likely does not do integer scaling

[andykara2003]

the A1 most likely does not do integer scaling

Youre right it doesn't, sorry I didn't realise what you meant.

I wonder if the mCable could be a better alternative to normal TV upscaling as there's a version designed for video games? I'd love to try one..

[andykara2003]

Apologies for the double post:

After seeing some reviews, this mCable does seem to be doing a good job as an alternative to normal upscaling. I wonder what it's doing? It does it all at 1ms latency as well...

[thebigcheese]

Apologies for the double post:

After seeing some reviews, this mCable does seem to be doing a good job as an alternative to normal upscaling. I wonder what it's doing? It does it all at 1ms latency as well...

Digital Foundry has a good video review of it.

[andykara2003]

Thanks - reading the review it seems like for 1080p, a plasma will be a much better solution than the mCable + any 4K TV.

[Xer Xian]

^^ I agree, especially when you factor in the superior motion clarity. How about sticking with the plasma tech for 4K content too? There are a few Panasonic TH-152 floating on ebay as of now

[andykara2003]

Thanks for the heads up - I didn't know there were any 4K plasmas! I'm looking at one for just under £90,000 now. Can't decide whether to go for it..

[Ikaruga11]

No

[bobrocks95]

Thanks for the heads up - I didn't know there were any 4K plasmas! I'm looking at one for just under £90,000 now. Can't decide whether to go for it..

If you're actually considering the TH-152 keep in mind it weighs 1,300 pounds lol

[Lawfer]

No

Yeah unfortunally, the problem with this is also that even if you spend a good amount of money on an upscaler for a specific resolution, eventually the current resolution will be supplented by another resolution and you'll have to upgrade everything, it's like with HDMI, if your equipment is presently at HDMI 2.0 and HDMI releases 2.1 next year, to get HDMI 2.1 you'll have to change everything.

Last generation console was mostly 720p (PS3 and Xbox 360) and 480i/p (PSP go, Wii), this generation they are finally catching up with 1080p (some games still can't even do 1080p) and alreadu in a few years things are probably set to make the jump to 4K or 1440p.

With CRT you get a CRT + the cables and you're all set.

[andykara2003]

If you're actually considering the TH-152 keep in mind it weighs 1,300 pounds lol :mrgreen:

Wow, that's over half a tonne - and it uses 3.7kw!

[Fudoh]

might make more sense to go with Sony's crystal LED panels instead. At this size it should give you the same resolution.

[Xyga]

Isn't microLED/CLEDIA sample-and-hold though?