monitors without native resolution support are now a thing

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Fudoh
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monitors without native resolution support are now a thing

Post by Fudoh »

LG just started selling a 27" monitor which is officially a 1440p display, but uses a 4K panel. So it's basically identical with the 4K model but without HDMI 2.0 and using a castrated firmware to limit Displayport as well.

Prad (monitor review page in Germany) reviewed the display and called its display quality at native resolution "good", while posting this:

Image

At the same time they published a news article that this is a now a thing and expected to happen more often in the future.

I just wanna cry :shock:
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BazookaBen
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by BazookaBen »

I imagine this will only be an issue on super cheap monitors.
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Fudoh
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Fudoh »

It's a 400 EUR monitor. Not exactly ultra-cheap for a 1440p 27" monitor.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Xyga »

???

Fudoh could you please develop or translate the essential of that article ?

I don't get it, they actually locked the use of native resolution and imposed a maximum of 1440p (very well) upscaled ?
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BazookaBen
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by BazookaBen »

Fudoh wrote:It's a 400 EUR monitor. Not exactly ultra-cheap for a 1440p 27" monitor.
I highly doubt that will be a big seller. I certainly wouldn't buy it.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Fudoh »

they always test the monitors at different resolutions and then they post a camera snapshot at native resolution (which usually looks great) and one with a signal upscaled from a lower resolution (which usually looks messy). Now on this one the native one already looks messy and the 720p feed actually looks better.

This is sold as a native 1440p monitor. Its inputs are limited to 1440p and windows defaults to 1440p. Still it uses the same 4K panel as it's more expensive 4K brother.

They then posted this article

https://www.prad.de/wolf-im-schafspelz- ... -arbeitet/

but still argued that hardly anybody would ever notice it, since windows is now scaling icons and fonts anyway. Still the article above doesn't mention the LG and the LG review doesn't mention the actual problem. I assume they were provided with the display by LG and it might have gotten edited.

What a pile of bullcrap....
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Xyga
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Xyga »

I see, that confused me because that's beyond absurd.
But you know the saddest part is I've seen much worse than this sample so many times.
Anyway.
Now I can already see the myriads of incompetent random reviews and product pages not even mentioning that scam.

EDIT: scary perspective; is it a sign of the end of true WQHD IPS panels within the next few years ?
Last edited by Xyga on Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lawfer
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Lawfer »

Fudoh wrote:monitors without native resolution support are now a thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpZCaPs1q6w&t=0m24s

Let's hope that doesn't become mainstream and ultimately replaces all native resolution displays, it's already bad enough that modern displays are (unlike CRTs) "native resolution bound" resulting in an inferior picture quality on anything that is not the same native resolution of the display, now this will give an inferior picture quality on all resolutions.

Xyga wrote:I see, that confused me because that's beyond absurd.
Absurdity such as this is not unheard of, this reminds me how Nintendo uses 800 x 240 panels on the 400 x 240 2DS XL.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by nmalinoski »

Lawfer wrote:
Xyga wrote:I see, that confused me because that's beyond absurd.
Absurdity such as this is not unheard of, this reminds me how Nintendo uses 800 x 240 panels on the 400 x 240 2DS XL.
But at least a 400x240 image can be horizontally integer-scaled for an 800x240 panel and still look super-sharp; you're not going to get any kind of sharpness scaling 1440p to 2160p.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Lawfer »

nmalinoski wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
Xyga wrote:I see, that confused me because that's beyond absurd.
Absurdity such as this is not unheard of, this reminds me how Nintendo uses 800 x 240 panels on the 400 x 240 2DS XL.
But at least a 400x240 image can be horizontally integer-scaled for an 800x240 panel and still look super-sharp; you're not going to get any kind of sharpness scaling 1440p to 2160p.
It's still not as good as it could be, look at this:

http://i.imgur.com/0qFEL91.jpg

The picture on the 2DS XL is still a downgrade, makes the game look like it went through some crappily cheap scaling in comparison.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Xyga »

yeah it makes the horizontal too sharp in contrast with the vertical so it doesn't fit the original graphics well, but no bad fractonal scaling issue there indeed.
what Fudoh found is much worse.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Xer Xian »

This kind of reminds me of consumer HD CRTs, which performed unnecessary scaling for some input resolution thus defeating one of the advantages of that tech. Except that with this LG LCD there's no technical reason to nerf it and cap the supported resolutions, it's done just for market segmentation..

This also makes me realize that I should buy a decent 1080p monitor before it's too late..
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by donluca »

Well, when they'll find a way to hack the firmware and unlock the native 4k resolution this could become a nice bargain.
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NUeda
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by NUeda »

This reminds me of some models of early plasma HDTV that had 1366x768 panel and somehow was okay at showing 720p and 1080i signals over component YPbPr cables.

Most people won't care, but people who are obsessed with pixel accuracy will curse at this.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Ikaruga11 »

Lawfer wrote:It's still not as good as it could be, look at this:

http://i.imgur.com/0qFEL91.jpg

The picture on the 2DS XL is still a downgrade, makes the game look like it went through some crappily cheap scaling in comparison.
The New 2DS XL looks better imo
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by maxtherabbit »

NUeda wrote:This reminds me of some models of early plasma HDTV that had 1366x768 panel and somehow was okay at showing 720p and 1080i signals over component YPbPr cables.

Most people won't care, but people who are obsessed with pixel accuracy will curse at this.
There were a lot of early LCDs like that but I've only ever seen 720 and 1080 native plasmas
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by bobrocks95 »

GeneraLight wrote:
Lawfer wrote:It's still not as good as it could be, look at this:

http://i.imgur.com/0qFEL91.jpg

The picture on the 2DS XL is still a downgrade, makes the game look like it went through some crappily cheap scaling in comparison.
The New 2DS XL looks better imo
It looks a bit like a PVM, with painted horizontal lines and kind of a scanlines look. That's right up plenty of people's alley, right? :wink:
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

maxtherabbit wrote:
NUeda wrote:This reminds me of some models of early plasma HDTV that had 1366x768 panel and somehow was okay at showing 720p and 1080i signals over component YPbPr cables.

Most people won't care, but people who are obsessed with pixel accuracy will curse at this.
There were a lot of early LCDs like that but I've only ever seen 720 and 1080 native plasmas
I have a ridiculous plasma that takes in 1080p but displays a lower resolution. It's not even 1366x768.
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Keade
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Keade »

Native FXAA :wink:
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Lawfer
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Lawfer »

maxtherabbit wrote:
NUeda wrote:This reminds me of some models of early plasma HDTV that had 1366x768 panel and somehow was okay at showing 720p and 1080i signals over component YPbPr cables.

Most people won't care, but people who are obsessed with pixel accuracy will curse at this.
There were a lot of early LCDs like that but I've only ever seen 720 and 1080 native plasmas
Thing is there aren't any native 720p TVs, all (or at least 99.99%) 720p TVs are actually 768p.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Ikaruga11 »

bobrocks95 wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
Lawfer wrote:It's still not as good as it could be, look at this:

http://i.imgur.com/0qFEL91.jpg

The picture on the 2DS XL is still a downgrade, makes the game look like it went through some crappily cheap scaling in comparison.
The New 2DS XL looks better imo
It looks a bit like a PVM, with painted horizontal lines and kind of a scanlines look. That's right up plenty of people's alley, right? :wink:
Yeah, it is for me. I'm not a fan of the checkerboard pixel grid look.

In fact, my New 3DS XL (which has an IPS Top Screen), shows the same scanlines, albeit maybe a bit sharper. The TN Bottom Screen shows the checkerboard pixel grid look.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by ZellSF »

With proper scaling algorithms and options, I don't think I would need native resolution for a 8K display.

A 4K display trying to display 1440p though? And for no good reason (cost or technical limitations) other than market segmentation? No thanks.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Lawfer »

GeneraLight wrote:In fact, my New 3DS XL (which has an IPS Top Screen), shows the same scanlines, albeit maybe a bit sharper.
That's because you are not enabling 3D, the only way to get native resolution on the New 3DS XL is to enable 3D, if 3D is off you'll be outputting 400x240 to a 800x240 screen, giving you the result that you see and that is no different then what you would get on a New 2DS XL.

Xer Xian wrote:This also makes me realize that I should buy a decent 1080p monitor before it's too late..
I think it's a good idea, not so much if you are a PC-only gamer, but definitly if you are a console gamer, basically if you get a 4K screen, you won't be able to enjoy the current gen nor last gen consoles at native display resolution, however with a 1080p TV current gen games and most last gen games (except for a few PS3 exclusives which only display in 720p) will look as good as they can possibly look and that will also be the case for future generation games, which will look as good as they can possibly look on a 1080p screen (with anti-aliasing added by ways of supersampling).

Basically with 4k, any resolution below 4k won't look as good as 4k resolutions and above, while 1080p, any resolutions below 1080p won't look as good as 1080p and above.

The only other choice would be to get the best 4K upscaler on the market, which cost alot of money, though not sure if that still will be as good as a TV displaying at native resolution.
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BazookaBen
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by BazookaBen »

Actually, most PS3 games don't display at 1080p, whether native or upscaled, they only output at 720p. So in that case a 4k screen would be preferrable
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Konsolkongen »

Almost no 360 and PS3 games run at 1080p. These are 720p systems.

720p also has the potential to upscale better on a 4k display than a 1080p one, because 720p devides evenly with 2160p. So I would argue that a 4k screen is the best choice for console gamers. Unless of course the built in scaler absolutely rapes the lower resolutions with “smoothing” when upscaling :)
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Lawfer »

BazookaBen wrote:Actually, most PS3 games don't display at 1080p, whether native or upscaled, they only output at 720p. So in that case a 4k screen would be preferrable
Konsolkongen wrote:Almost no 360 and PS3 games run at 1080p. These are 720p systems.

720p also has the potential to upscale better on a 4k display than a 1080p one, because 720p devides evenly with 2160p. So I would argue that a 4k screen is the best choice for console gamers. Unless of course the built in scaler absolutely rapes the lower resolutions with “smoothing” when upscaling :)
I am aware, this is why I mentioned "PS3 exclusives", aside from these most of them you can play on Xbox 360 in 1080p (unless they are PS3 exclusives, in that case you're stuck with 720.)

in b4: It's not true 1080p, REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

That would be true, but that would also be the case of the Wii U and the few games on PS3 that can 1080p looks a ton better than playing them in 720p, for example try Final Fantasy XIII trilogy in 1080p on a 1080p display, vs 720p.

The important thing is to display at the TV native resolution, rather than sending 720p or lower on a TV that's 1080p or more. You can get a TV that will receive a resolution that's 1:1 in the display native resolution or use a scaler (either a console scaler such as what the Xbox 360 and Wii U offerm or get an outside solution such as a Lumagen or Crystalio.)
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by nmalinoski »

Konsolkongen wrote:Almost no 360 and PS3 games run at 1080p. These are 720p systems.

720p also has the potential to upscale better on a 4k display than a 1080p one, because 720p devides evenly with 2160p. So I would argue that a 4k screen is the best choice for console gamers. Unless of course the built in scaler absolutely rapes the lower resolutions with “smoothing” when upscaling :)
Am I missing something? 1080 also divides evenly with 4k (line-doubles to 2160p), and these consoles will output a 1080p signal. Are you saying that the PS3 and Xbox 360 render at 720p and scale to 1080p, so configuring these consoles to output 720p and letting the display line-triple will result in a better picture than configuring them for 1080p and letting the display line-double?
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by bobrocks95 »

nmalinoski wrote:
Konsolkongen wrote:Almost no 360 and PS3 games run at 1080p. These are 720p systems.

720p also has the potential to upscale better on a 4k display than a 1080p one, because 720p devides evenly with 2160p. So I would argue that a 4k screen is the best choice for console gamers. Unless of course the built in scaler absolutely rapes the lower resolutions with “smoothing” when upscaling :)
Am I missing something? 1080 also divides evenly with 4k (line-doubles to 2160p), and these consoles will output a 1080p signal. Are you saying that the PS3 and Xbox 360 render at 720p and scale to 1080p, so configuring these consoles to output 720p and letting the display line-triple will result in a better picture than configuring them for 1080p and letting the display line-double?
They were saying 720p doesn't divide evenly into 1080p. It was between getting a 4K display or as someone had mentioned earlier buying a 1080p display.

Again though, 360 and PS3 are almost exclusively 720p consoles: https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/list ... st-1114422
So with a 4K display setting them to 720p and letting the display handle it may produce better results. The 360 can always scale games to 1080p, but 2 scaling passes may or may not look better.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Ikaruga11 »

Lawfer wrote:That's because you are not enabling 3D, the only way to get native resolution on the New 3DS XL is to enable 3D, if 3D is off you'll be outputting 400x240 to a 800x240 screen, giving you the result that you see and that is no different then what you would get on a New 2DS XL.
So what about games that don't implement 3D Mode at all times (Pokémon), or support it at all?


And yeah, the Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii U are all mainly 720p consoles. Only just recently with the Xbox One, PS4 and Switch did we get mainly 1080p consoles.
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Re: monitors without native resolution support are now a thi

Post by Xyga »

bobrocks95 wrote:may
'may', 'should', 'in theory', 'the math'

those are the things with scaling, the things

:|

edit: always
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