Toro, by BeharBros, PROBLEM with its Sync Combiner?

[Dochartaigh]

I have a BeharBros Toro I bought directly from them. I get, for lack of a better word, static flash across my screen when I use the built-in sync combiner (so it's outputting RGBS over the VGA connector, instead of RGBHV from the VGA connector - which is supposed to be totally fine as long as I flip the tiny dipswitch to put it in RGBS mode). This even shows up when I downscale 480p to 240p, or even do that + RGBS to YPbPr conversion so I can run this on my consumer SD TV's.




Here's a video when it's really bad - which that screnshot above is from (it's usually worse when it's in 15khz):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lRCTLXQzbI

But it's normally just a couple quick flashes like this since I usually run it in 480p (it's usually not as bad in 480p mode):
https://youtu.be/Su3D1PmftfY?t=10


BUT, when I run it in regular RGBHV mode (which has to be put through my Extron RGB 203 Rxi to merge H and V sync to become RGBS for my PVM/BVM's), it's perfectly fine, so I think it has something to do with the chip that merges RGBHV to RGBS, right?

For what I've tried so far: two different Dreamcasts (one with HDD mod), multiple games, a whole slew of CRT multiformat monitors like PVM-20L5, 14L5, BVM-D20F1U, BVM-D14L5, etc. Downscaled on maybe 4 other PVM's, and several Sony Wega consumer TV's (and in non-downscaled native 15khz as well). Tried three different VGA to BNC cables, two VGA to VGA cables (including BNIB Extron quality cables), tried two different Extron Crosspoint Switchers -- tried directly to the monitors as well of course--, three different Extron RGB units, etc.

Everything, in my non-expert opinion, points to the Toro itself being faulty (or perhaps the cable running to the Toro which was part of the package I bought from them - most people will say those cables can be very touchy). Behar says that the "devices are tested multiple times before shipping, we are very confident with it".

Behar bros suggested I try it on a PC CRT monitor to rule out my PVM/BVM's as being the problem (even though I've tried it on multiple monitors). I told them it could take me WEEKS for me to find one (I honestly find more PVM's than decent spec'd PC monitors in my area) - but could it possibly be that the Toro only works properly on PC VGA CRT's, and not multiformat PVM/BVM's? I can't imagine that to be correct (and read about people using these on their Sony PVM/BVM's all the time). Anybody else have problems using it's RGBS output?

Behar bros will take this back as a refund, but they seem to be saying, or at least hinting (and I don't know if it's lost in translation or something as I know they're a company based in Turkey I believe), but it sounds like they're not open to giving me a replacement unit. They mentioned I should post here to see if anybody else has anything I can try. Can anybody think of anything I haven't tested to rule out my equipment as being the problem? I've tried multiple consoles, cables, monitors and everything...I really have no other conclusion but to think it's the Toro itself.

[BuckoA51]

If you know someone with an OSSC you could test it there? RGBS from mine is working OK with my OSSC. I was convinced for a while one of the audio channels was messed up but swapping the SCART cable seems to have cured it.

[maxtherabbit]

sure sounds like a defective unit to me... really don't know what testing on a PC CRT is going to tell you since they use separate HV syncs anyway (which you already know is working)

when you put the dreamcast in 15kHz RGB mode, does the toro pass the native composite sync through from the multi out on the DC or does it still run the HV through the combiner circuit? that might help troubleshooting if it bypasses the combiner

[werk91]

I get the same problem occasionally on mine Toro running in RGBS 480p to a JVC video monitor. It's much more rare than what I saw in your second video. I always thought it's because of that little cable making the connection because it didn't used to do it and just started one day. I've got it on my mind to purchase a replacement cable from them and see if that's it.

[Dochartaigh]

If you know someone with an OSSC you could test it there? RGBS from mine is working OK with my OSSC. I was convinced for a while one of the audio channels was messed up but swapping the SCART cable seems to have cured it.

I have an OSSC but don't have a flatscreen/LCD in the same room as my rack with all these systems on it quite yet. I could detangle the Dreamcast's cables from the ~300' of wires on my server rack and move it to the other room to test...but to be honest I mostly play on CRT's so even if it works perfectly on the OSSC that still wouldn't solve my problem unfortunately.

sure sounds like a defective unit to me... really don't know what testing on a PC CRT is going to tell you since they use separate HV syncs anyway (which you already know is working)

when you put the dreamcast in 15kHz RGB mode, does the toro pass the native composite sync through from the multi out on the DC or does it still run the HV through the combiner circuit? that might help troubleshooting if it bypasses the combiner

I honestly don't know how Behar designed their board - just know that RGBS output (in both 15 and 31khz) gives me problems, whereas RGBHV output doesn't, so that to me says that whatever is merging the sync is the culprit. I wonder is the pins for the combines sync is different than the pins for separate H and V sync - if that's the case then the individual pin used for the "S" or RGBS could have a short and could cause this (but that's probably a long shot and I'm just thinking out loud).

I get the same problem occasionally on mine Toro running in RGBS 480p to a JVC video monitor. It's much more rare than what I saw in your second video. I always thought it's because of that little cable making the connection because it didn't used to do it and just started one day. I've got it on my mind to purchase a replacement cable from them and see if that's it.

I think the cable is an extremely bad design. It's not flexible in the least, and WAY too short. Since you can't move it anyplace else besides directly behind the Dreamcast in-line, you literally need a table/entertainment center which is maybe ~2' deep which they simply don't make anymore (all the shelving units people use from Ikea are 15.75" deep at the max for example which I think would make the Toro box hang off the back of it no matter what). On top of that the connection type they use on the Toro box itself is not secure whatsoever and likes to easily fall off! /end rant lol.

....all that being said is why I had to literally zip tie the Toro behind the Dreamcast so I could make sure it wasn't moving and loosing connection or anything - so unless the cable itself is bad I just don't know since it's secured really well....but if the cable WAS bad, wouldn't I have issues when using RGBHV output mode as well? -- which I'm not, so this again leads me to the box itself being bad.




So, outside of if this Toro is malfunctioning of not, if it's not going to work for me what other options do I have to be able to get 15 and 31khz out of the Dreamcast with a switch? The quasi-recent "Well-made Dreamcast VGA only" topic doesn't seem to have any quality contenders if I remember correctly, so what do people use besides the Toro?

[maxtherabbit]

The Dreamcast has 3 sync lines on the multi out, H,V and composite sync

In 15 kHz mode all 3 lines are active, in 31kHz mode the csync turns off. It's possible that the bros are using HV lines in both modes running them through the combiner for simplicity sake. That would seem commensurate with your symptoms, it would also exonerate the jumper cable since you know H and V work separately

[werk91]

I contacted BBS on Facebook about the issue and they recommended to check the pins on the DC end of the cable and make sure they're all aligned, I had to prod some of mine up with tweezers. At the same time cleaned the Dreamcast port as well since it was a bit dusty. Now the occasional drop in sync seems to be all gone.

Did noticed something else though.. There's very clear horizontal ghosting that's easy to see on text for eg. Someone on the VGP forum has the same problem from the topics last post. Maybe it's the Scart cable I'm using...

[Dochartaigh]

I contacted BBS on Facebook about the issue and they recommended to check the pins on the DC end of the cable and make sure they're all aligned, I had to prod some of mine up with tweezers. At the same time cleaned the Dreamcast port as well since it was a bit dusty. Now the occasional drop in sync seems to be all gone.

Good recommendation, and I will check it. Are you talking about the port on the DC, or the Behar bros cable which had the bent pins on yours? I'm guessing it's the Behar cable since I've tried this on two Dreamcasts so far (and didn't even mention my buddy brought his over as well to triple check), so it would be really weird of all 3x of those consoles had an issue with their ports.

[werk91]

It was the Beharbros cable, on the Dreamcast end that had two slightly bent pins. Ultimately I can't be sure if it was them or my dirty Dreamcast AV port

Here's the best photo of the ghosting I managed to take.

EDIT: The ghosting turned out to be caused by the Madcatz switcher, when I plugged the Toro output in the Otaku Scart switcher the picture was instantly perfect