Good CRTs for shmuping on a console

[shorty]

I just got myself an Xbox 360 and eager to try some Cave ports. Tomorrow I'm visiting a secondhand shop to see if I can find a good CRT to play on. Anything in particular I should look for?

I'm pretty ignorant about all those image-related stuff like video signals, frequencies, resolutions, scanlines and other stuff... Only reason I'm going after a CRT is because I don't want any kind of display input lag interfering on my gaming. Up until recently I believed every CRT was 'lagless' but some further reading suggested me otherwise (image post processing stuff on some HD CRTs or something like it).

I heard Sony models are very good, and I expect to find some Trinitron WEGA models there. So, any suggestions? And feel free to elaborate a bit on that display stuff I mentioned earlier so I can make a better purchase.

[bigbadboaz]

This is actually a more interesting question when it involves the 360, as you have to consider SD vs. HD sets. Are you planning on going HD to get the full use of the 360, or would you be willing/interested to run the Cave titles on an SD display and approximate the look of an arcade monitor? What types of cables do you have ready for the 360?

[shorty]

I pretty much bought the 360 just to play STG titles but I might fire up some 3D action-adventure games from time to time, although they are few and far between; so I can say I'm very interested in retaining that old school look of arcade monitors for 2D shooters, which I find very charming.

The 360 model I got it's the latest revision, dubbed Xbox 360 E. It came with composite RCA and HDMI cables.

[gray117]

... I'd tell you the rtfm, but only arseholes say that

Path of least resistance (... but too small imho probably max 21inches) :
360 > vga > pc crt +optional slg3000 to add scanlines + headphones/receiver+speakers depending on how you want to do audio.

The rest, be prepared to spend more money and do reading

Shit that people might say, but imho is a waste since I can't stand interlacing, and is not what you had in arcades:
360 > 480i scrart/component/composite > tv crt

To reproduce arcade feel, in order of preference imho, the bummer is each has at least 1 hard-to-find part in the chain:
360 > vga > emotia (/similar 240p down converter) > 25-29" 15khz arcade monitor
360 > vga > emotia (/similar 240p down converter) > 25-29" sony trinitron crt / similar with service menu
360 > vga > multi-sync or 31khz pro crt monitor like XM29 plus etc. ... + optional slg3000 to add scanlines


Or replicate on a contemporary screen.
360 > vga 640x480p > slg3000 > low lag lcd screen that handles 480p well.
360 > hdmi > OSSC / xrgb(mini) > low input lag lcd


.......

If this (likely) all means nothing to you. Read fudoh's site, in particular scanlines + de-interlacing sections:
http://www.hazard-city.de/
And work out what route you want to take

Good luck!

[Xer Xian]

The last revision (Xbox 360 'E') doesn't have analog out.

Also Emotia's are too damn expensive when a $25 TvOne can do the same job with equal (or better) result.

[Steamflogger Boss]

The last revision (Xbox 360 'E') doesn't have analog out.

Also Emotia's are too damn expensive when a $25 TvOne can do the same job with equal (or better) result.

Ouch. I actually didn't know that, as I only have older model 360s. OP you might want to consider a different model console. No sense in using a crappy HDMI to VGA (or ypbpr) converter if you don't have to.

Interesting on the TvOne. I had considered an Emotia awhile back but passed due to the high prices.

[Xyga]

WTF happened to Emotia prices ? like broadcast monitors: overhype ?

[Steamflogger Boss]

WTF happened to Emotia prices ? like broadcast monitors: overhype ?

Looks that way, sadly.

Xer Xian is there a specific TvOne model to look for?

[gray117]

The last revision (Xbox 360 'E') doesn't have analog out.

Also Emotia's are too damn expensive when a $25 TvOne can do the same job with equal (or better) result.

Hah sorry had no idea... what's the type of TvOne box that goes 240p?

...if you need analogue another 360 might be easier to get than a lot of the other stuff here :/

[Xer Xian]

There are several models that can do 240p, essentially you must look for the 'Corio2' label (it's not clear yet if all Corio2's support custom res settings). The 1T-C2-400 seems to be the more readily available on ebay. Or the 1T-C2-750 if you need a digital input. For other models, you might want to ask Orange808 or Dochartaigh, but as far as I know there isn't much that sets them apart beside number and type of inputs and front LCD screen or lack thereof.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Ah nice, that first one you listed is stupid cheap.

[orange808]

There's really no good reason to use anything but the C2-1T-400. Digital input is completely unnecessary. You won't notice any possible ringing artifacts from a good DAC after you downscale to 240p. IMHO, using a DAC to feed the C2 is a complete non-issue.

I swapped the C2-1T-400 into my setup permanently because it's easier. It's very convenient because the unit goes into a lagless pass through mode when you turn it off. You can just add it to the chain and just turn it on when you need it. My other C2 machine doesn't have an easy pass through option.

Also, you probably want a C2 unit that is labeled as an upscaler. "Downscaler" usually means interlaced output.

The Corio2 FPGA is inside all these units and it's virtually identical. There were two revisions of the C2, but the improvements weren't significant--and IMHO there's no benefit (at all) for 240p output with C2 v2. You pay for different firmware and connections.

[nmalinoski]

Do the TVOne Corio2 scalers support deinterlacing? With or without scaling?

[Xer Xian]

Yes but the result is unappealing at best.

[shorty]

Thank you gray117 for pointing out fudoh's articles; from the little I read I can say it's very interesting and informative stuff.

I guess interlaced will have to do for now. In a near future where I'm more comfortable finance-wise I'll have a look at those scan converters to work with the Trinitron I intend to buy today. By the way, the X360 model 'E' I got does come with an A/V composite cable output port; isn't that analog out? Just asking if I will have to get a RCAtoVGA adapter in order for it to work with a downscaler when I get one. An older 360 model or even a low latency LCD monitor are out of my budget as it stands, since pricing on the stuff here in Brazil is exorbitantly high.

Since I'm pretty much content with the image quality I'll get from the setup, I need to know if I have to worry about display input lag from CRTs, more specifically HDCRTs like some WEGA models, since I read a well written article ascertaining that possibility. If so, what kinda 'lagless' TVs should I look into?

[Xer Xian]

By the way, the X360 model 'E' I got does come with an A/V composite cable output port; isn't that analog out?

You are right! It can output composite from the 3.5mm jack - I didn't know that. Anyway, you should really avoid using composite in favour of the hdmi out instead. Route that to an hdmi to vga transcoder and into a vga CRT monitor and you're set. Getting a scanline generator will then give you a more authentic look for sprite-based games.

[gray117]

An older 360 model or even a low latency LCD monitor are out of my budget as it stands, since pricing on the stuff here in Brazil is exorbitantly high.

Since I'm pretty much content with the image quality I'll get from the setup, I need to know if I have to worry about display input lag from CRTs, more specifically HDCRTs like some WEGA models, since I read a well written article ascertaining that possibility. If so, what kinda 'lagless' TVs should I look into?

Argh Brazil has crazy tax situation like Mexico unless it's made there?

Looking at a HD CRT for general games as well as shmups? ... any issues with them it'd probably be easiest to avoid a hdcrt especially if there's a cost factor at work here.

I would opt for a regular trinitron for general arcade game use and would presume that's the cheaper route? If you need a cost-conscious-hd screen for general games I'd opt for an older/cheaper 24" lcd pc monitor: these generally have lower lag than tvs and although you need to sort out a separate audio route you can always get a cheap hdmi to vga/dvi adapter if needed... and will probably be best for anything like text/fine uis.

[waiwainl]

Not a CRT, but go for the Pioneer PDP-402 (40" Plasma 4:3). You can rotate it Hor or Ver.
Output is the same as CRT.

[orange808]

No. It isn't.

[svensonson]

No. It isn't.

I agree with that.
The output is all but not crt like.

[waiwainl]

No. It isn't.

I agree with that.
The output is all but not crt like.

If you are in front of one, you will see
I have a B&O MX8000 and this one next to each other; both looking great; just the Pioneer is scaled up.

[svensonson]

No. It isn't.

I agree with that.
The output is all but not crt like.

If you are in front of one, you will see
I have a B&O MX8000 and this one next to each other; both looking great; just the Pioneer is scaled up.

I had one for testing purposes long before the ossc and framemeister showed up. It`s okay for cheap PS2 deinterlacing but never liked the upscaled picture of 240p content.

[chempop]

For starters I wouldn't overcomplicate getting the perfect image on a new setup, especially if you are on a budget.
A cheap/free 21"-27" CRT with s-video will do fine until you have more time to figure out what will suit you best for the long term. Put the savings toward a good arcade stick and enjoy playing some cave ports

[DoomsDave]

The E doesn't support component or VGA so you got the worst 360 for gaming on a CRT. Get a 360 that isn't a E before you get a CRT because composite is going to look like shit regardless of what you plug it into. You're also not going to get the cave games to look anything like the arcade versions unless you use a downscaler or maybe a SLG so my advice is if you really want a CRT then get a VGA monitor.

[bigbadboaz]

He could get an S-video cable, which, if he goes SD is probably the best choice. 15 years later, cherrypicking one of the relatively few SD sets with component isn't going to be easy, nevermind the question of which type of signal they look for vs. what the 360 outputs. This era was the beginning of the standards nightmare..

[waiwainl]

I had one for testing purposes long before the ossc and framemeister showed up. It`s okay for cheap PS2 deinterlacing but never liked the upscaled picture of 240p content.

Not sure which one you had, but I never noticed any 15kHz upscale issues. But than again, I never hooked up a PS2 on it.
Mostly older consoles (Saturn, PCE, PS1, etc)

[azmun]

He could get an S-video cable, which, if he goes SD is probably the best choice.

I agree s-video would be a great solution but unsure if his console is capable of outputing this signal. As mentioned OP has the latest (Xbox 360 E) revision. Sadly, these models sacrificed the multi-out A/V out from previous variants. Seems you do have at least analog output via 3.5mm jack but I doubt you'll get s-video from that as most likely it only produces composite. The other option would be to use HDMI and convert to VGA as some have suggested. But that would limit his display options in addition to looking for other video processors (scanline generators, upscalers, etc.). Could another viable option be to use HDMI and convert to component?

[Hoagtech]

Not a CRT, but go for the Pioneer PDP-402 (40" Plasma 4:3). You can rotate it Hor or Ver.
Output is the same as CRT.

No the Borders for underscan and overscan are puzzling to me.

Your restricted to a set pixel grid with no options to go full screen without throwing off your interger scale.

Crt allows you widen and shorten and keep original interger scaling

[bigbadboaz]

I agree s-video would be a great solution but unsure if his console is capable of outputing this signal. Sadly, these models sacrificed the multi-out A/V out from previous variants.

Damn, I didn't realize the discussion earlier meant S-video had been eliminated as well. You're probably right.

In that case, IMO OP might just forget about a CRT at all (assuming he already has some kind of flat panel at home). If there's any reason to go with an HD CRT, it would seem to pale next to getting an SD CRT to run Cave shmups on the screen type they were originally intended for.

[gray117]

Just asking if I will have to get a RCAtoVGA adapter in order for it to work with a downscaler when I get one

^^ no ... I think a hdmi to vga (@640x480p) adapter will be what you want - should be pretty cheap + small
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/1080p-HDMI-Fem ... 2447233216



... ergh guys regardless of what it looks like - how the hell is the guy supposed to find a rare pioneer for a decent price in Brazil?