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 Post subject: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:08 pm 


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"Why in the world would he want to do that?"

I'm getting a HDTV wall mount set up this week that supports rotating the TV to portrait mode. The mount only lets you rotate the left, which will handle all normal TATE things. However, the Namco Museum compilations on PS1 seem to do reverse TATE on the games that support vertical display, so this essentially rotates the screen to the right (supposedly the original arcade games were the same). When I rotate this wall mount, that will leave those games as upside down.

I'm looking for whatever solution is the easiest/cheapest/has-least-latency/most-practical. Flipping the video vertically and horizontally would fix the orientation (rotating it 180 degrees would have the same result). Since I'll be feeding RGBs into my OSSC, I'm fine with either trying to process the RGBs or HDMI signal (whichever works better).

Know of any solutions to this unique scenario? (I guess this would be handy for people with a dedicated TATE CRT as well so they don't have to flip it just for Namco stuff)


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:05 pm 


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Comes down to the same problem as your usual 90° rotation. A full frame buffer is required, so you will add some lag. 180° rotation will save you from bad scaling engines though, since this option doesn't require any rescaling, just swapping the pixels.

There are a bunch of video processors that will handle such a task. Many expensive, many quite laggy, not all offer a frame lock (so the output will precisely match the input refresh rate). What makes your setup a bit more complicated is that you require good compatibility with the OSSC's output.

I would say try an Aurora Dido Jr.. Not TOO hard to find under $100, although not always available at this price point.


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:58 pm 



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You might be able to mount the TV in a way that it rotates properly. Assuming a standard VESA bracket, mount the TV, rotate it 90 degrees (counter clockwise). Don't touch the bracket, un-mount the TV and remount it horizontally. Now it should rotate 90 degrees (clockwise) in the other direction. Of course, this assumes your other TATE applications allow you to output video that matches the Namaco Museum output's orientation.


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:08 pm 


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NJRoadfan wrote:
You might be able to mount the TV in a way that it rotates properly. Assuming a standard VESA bracket, mount the TV, rotate it 90 degrees (counter clockwise). Don't touch the bracket, un-mount the TV and remount it horizontally. Now it should rotate 90 degrees (clockwise) in the other direction. Of course, this assumes your other TATE applications allow you to output video that matches the Namaco Museum output's orientation.

I don't think the mount would physically let me do that. Even it did, then it'd keep me from playing regular TATE (counter clockwise rotate only) games.

Fudoh wrote:
I would say try an Aurora Dido Jr.. Not TOO hard to find under $100, although not always available at this price point.

The cheapest I'm seeing it on ebay on active and sold listings is $200. Pretty pricey when the I only games I have that I need this for are the Namco Museum volumes on PS1. Are my only options pricey HDMI scalers? I'm by no means an expert on how video signals works, but I just assumed it'd be "easier" to horizontally + vertically mirror a video signal (same visual effect as 180 degree rotation) rather than having to use a full blown feature-rich scaler to do 180 degree rotation.
Do I have any other options such as something that can do the mirroring on the RGBs analog signal, or even a mod for the PS1 to flip the video output? :P


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:54 pm 


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That's the thing with eBay, you either wait for a listing that has a low starting price or buy it now for more.

You can also look into TvONE's Corio2 scalers, most (all?) will do H+V flipping, but add about 1.5/2 frames of lag. The 1T-C2-400 has analog RGB/Component in and out and can be found for cheap ($25 last I saw it on eBay). It doesn't accept 240p so you will need to convert the OSSC's output back to analog (cheap hdmi to vga converters can be had for $15) and then deal with the analog output. The 1T-C2-750 has digital input and output as well, but it goes for around $100-120. Both are guaranteed to have the H+V flip feature.

If you run 480p consoles and your TV doesn't accept the OSSC's 960p output, you could also use a Corio2 scaler to process 480p, they do an excellent job and have a smoothing option to reduce the jaggies.


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:30 pm 


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Xer Xian wrote:
It doesn't accept 240p....


Interesting. The unit should use programmed custom timings for both handling input and displaying output.

My C2 gladly accepts 240p as RGB or YPbPr.
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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:29 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Xer Xian wrote:
It doesn't accept 240p....


Interesting. The unit should use programmed custom timings for both handling input and displaying output.

My C2 gladly accepts 240p as RGB or YPbPr.


Oops. I'm wrong.

The Corio2 only accepts 240p as passthrough from the OSSC via a DAC.

Standard 240p doesn't work.

My apologies.
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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:35 pm 


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orange808 wrote:

Oops. I'm wrong.

The Corio2 only accepts 240p as passthrough from the OSSC via a DAC.

Standard 240p doesn't work.

My apologies.

I'm not quite sure I understand. Why would it work through the OSSC as 240p passthrough then converted to analog, but not from the console itself? The manual shows it needs TTL csync for RGBs, so that seems like it should work as long as you're not using composite video for sync or 75 ohm (attenuated? is that the right word?) csync.


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:42 pm 


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cr4zymanz0r wrote:
orange808 wrote:

Oops. I'm wrong.

The Corio2 only accepts 240p as passthrough from the OSSC via a DAC.

Standard 240p doesn't work.

My apologies.

I'm not quite sure I understand. Why would it work through the OSSC as 240p passthrough then converted to analog, but not from the console itself? The manual shows it needs TTL csync for RGBs, so that seems like it should work as long as you're not using composite video for sync or 75 ohm (attenuated? is that the right word?) csync.


The OSSC 240p isn't a true passthrough; it has a higher pixel clock.
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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:57 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
The OSSC 240p isn't a true passthrough; it has a higher pixel clock.

So you've confirmed it doesn't work direct from a console with a 240p RGB signal using TTL csync? I don't think many people have their consoles/cables outputting TTL csync unless it's by accident. I'm using an Extron Crosspoint switch that makes all sync outputs TTL, so this wouldn't be a problem for me if the Corio 2 can take 240p RGB + TTL csync from the console without going through the OSSC + DAC first.

Just trying to make sure all my bases are covered before I think about buying one.


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:10 pm 


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cr4zymanz0r wrote:
orange808 wrote:
The OSSC 240p isn't a true passthrough; it has a higher pixel clock.

So you've confirmed it doesn't work direct from a console with a 240p RGB signal using TTL csync? I don't think many people have their consoles/cables outputting TTL csync unless it's by accident. I'm using an Extron Crosspoint switch that makes all sync outputs TTL, so this wouldn't be a problem for me if the Corio 2 can take 240p RGB + TTL csync from the console without going through the OSSC + DAC first.

Just trying to make sure all my bases are covered before I think about buying one.


Okay.

I can confirm that using TTL RGBHV (not 75ohm) from a Kramer distribution amp does not work. Feeding TTL RGBS and RGBHV from a Covid sync converter also does not work. Sync on Green also does not work.

I don't believe it's a sync thing. It's the pixel clock.
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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:39 pm 


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If you want another option, there's a listing for a Gefen EXT-VGAA-HD-SC that closes in twenty minutes from now on eBay.com. It has H+V flipping according to the manual. You will have to use an OSSC+DAC with it but at least you will have an hdmi output from the chain. Beware though, there's no PSU included in the listing and it uses an uncommon connector. Disclaimer: I've never owned one and don't know if it has any drawbacks like excessive latency, scanlines-breaking upscaling and such.

Personally I would just wait a bit for a reasonably priced 1T-C2-750 to surface on eBay. It's well worth the $100-something it can be had for.


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:40 pm 


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Isn't that just H/V sync polarity flipping?


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:03 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
Isn't that just H/V sync polarity flipping?

I don't understand whether you're asking if that's how H+V flipping is done or if that Gefen scaler only lets you change the sync polarity instead of actually flipping the image. In any case, the answer is no for both :P


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:14 pm 


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You're right, sorry :)


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:57 am 


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Xer Xian wrote:
Personally I would just wait a bit for a reasonably priced 1T-C2-750 to surface on eBay. It's well worth the $100-something it can be had for.


Will this play nice with the OSSC's non-standard output?
How much latency should I expect it to add?


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:07 am 


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cr4zymanz0r wrote:
Will this play nice with the OSSC's non-standard output?

The C2-750 has 4:4:4 sampling and artifact-free upscaling, you can set the OSSC to 2x240p and 480p passthrough and forget about higher multiples. Unless you want to add scanlines, in which case it gets a bit messy since this scaler tends to break scanlines. I haven't found a completely satisfying solution yet. Best I could do was set the OSSC to output 5x240p (1200p) and live with the slightly wider AR (click to zoom in):

Image

Due to the limited AR controls on the C2-750 (you can only 'zoom in' vertically or horizontally within the 1920x1080 frame - which means you stretch the image up to the frame borders and only then actually start zooming in), you don't have a lot of leeway to tune in the AR with scanlines on. Even with a 1200p input, you will mess with the scanlines:

Image

You can get perfect SL (and fill the frame vertically) by selecting 1:1 mapping but then you lose a few lines:

Image

This is with a 1200p input, not 1080p, so it's the scaler that cuts the image. I didn't try to use the manual sampling options, maybe that helps getting a better result. Edit: of course not - there's no getting around this since it's a 1:1 mapping of 1200p on 1080p frame.

cr4zymanz0r wrote:
How much latency should I expect it to add?

As I said above, around 1.5-2 frames.


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:02 am 


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I'm thinking really hard about getting the 1T-C2-750, but there's something I can't seem to find the answer to in the manual. Is there a way to make it just pass through a DVI/HDMI signal with no additional processing (thus no added latency)? For the vast majority of things I won't be really using this, so I'd really not like have to unhook it if I want latency free OSSC signal going straight to my display.

The 1T-C2-400 manual indicates it will just pass the video signal through when the unit is in Standby mode, but the 1T-C2-750 manual doesn't seem to indicate whether it does or doesn't behave this way in Standby.


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 Post subject: Re: HV flipping (180 degree rotation) of RGBs or HDMI?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:56 am 


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I tested both inputs with an hdmi signal, and the C2-750 didn't pass it through while on standby.

Lag is down to one frame (stable) if output timings match the input perfectly, but that's not something you can achieve with the OSSC as source.


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