Xbox 360 VGA

[strayan]

Yes, the Xbox 360 can output 848x480 with the VGA cable. I've never used the console's DVD playback feature, though.

I discovered today that the 360 will also output this resolution if it thinks it’s connected via DVI (you lose audio though). For games on a 480p plasma this is great.

Unfortunately DVDs reverts to 720x480 during playback.

[Dochartaigh]

Yes, the Xbox 360 can output 848x480 with the VGA cable. I've never used the console's DVD playback feature, though.

I discovered today that the 360 will also output this resolution if it thinks it’s connected via DVI (you lose audio though). For games on a 480p plasma this is great.

I wonder which plasmas (that you can actually find) are 848 pixels wide and can take advantage of this. I've been stalking CL/FB for going on three? years now and all I can find for 480p-native Plasma sets are Panasonic PW(consumer) and PWD(professional) models, and those are all 852 pixels wide. Pioneer is the other coveted brand, but not a one has shown up in all that time (and def not the 4:3 model), and theirs is 853 weirdly enough. There's some others: Samsung (852 on the couple model numbers I checked), and NEC, Sony, Hantarex – those I know little about and could very well share a panel with some other brands.

4 Pixels doesn't sound like a huge deal, right? But when it's impossible to reset the geometry width/height/centering setting to 100% pixel-perfect on the Panasonics (their reset values are already scaled), and when Plasma display technology itself has pretty CLEARLY defined 'pixels' (meaning you can see each individual plasma gas cell clearly because their is not too many in a 42" space), being those 4 pixels off will can give you image artifacts all over the place – usually in 5-17+ vertical columns (so say my tests I've been doing lately), especially when you have to deal with an analog signal type like VGA on top of it.

...just a FYI for others as I've been trying really hard (have like 5? 480p-native plasmas now) to get a perfect image on these things in 480p and so far it's been impossible I'm sorry to say. Still REALLY like them, they still kick LCD's butt (even with an upscaler) for 480p content which is why I keep them around, but still not perfect (especially for all the 720-pixel wide 'anamorphic widescreen' content of even earlier systems which needs to stretch to 848/852 pixels wide, thus kinds destroying the pixel-perfectness).

[Fudoh]

with an analogue input signal like VGA you should have no problem to manually dial in a pixel perfect match using the clock frequency and phase settings for the VGA adjustment.

You said you tried hard to get this right. Do you reach of the end of the adjustment scale before you get a perfect column match?

[Dochartaigh]

with an analogue input signal like VGA you should have no problem to manually dial in a pixel perfect match using the clock frequency and phase settings for the VGA adjustment.

You said you tried hard to get this right. Do you reach of the end of the adjustment scale before you get a perfect column match?

There's a "clock phase" on these Panasonics which minutely helps, but that's the only setting besides Width/Height/Centering. Biggest problem is having a compatible retro-gaming widescreen source TBH. I mostly test on OG Xbox which is 720p anamorphic widescreen, which will ALWAYS (in my testing so far at least) have some picture funkiness going on when 720 (or whatever active pixels) is stretched to the 852 the Panny's have. Even finding out what the active area truly is so you can do your geometry W/H/Center properly, is a HORRID experience... I adjust for the gameplay area so meters aren't cut off and then the menus are cutoff, if I adjust for the video sequences something else is cut-off, etc. etc. round in circles we go.

I'm sure if I tried the Xbox 360 at 848x480, I could kinda, sorta, get that to display very nice on my 852 wide set (ideally full-screen, then just click in the width 2 times)... but finding out where the image even ends on an analog signal is hard like I touched on above (there's FUNKY stuff WAY outside of the margins a lot of the time - Even XBO's backwards compatible SSX 3 screwed up on this right on the title screen!), there's no test grid baked into the Xbox 360 that I know of, no reliability that XYZ game even has a 848-wide mode (even the 'alternate display mode' lists aren't sure on some of this resolution stuff like the list Xer Xian posted on page 1). And sadly there's not even values I could write down from the Panny's Position/Size menu since it just uses bars with no numbers. Suppose I could reset then slowly count how many times I hit a button on the remote for each of the 5x values... but that's painful to do every time I switch consoles.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this topic. I've been meaning to finish my widescreen 480p Plasma tests and make a separate post at some point to really dig into this. Problem is I spent a bunch of hours doing it last time (documented everything with pictures and notes even) thinking that when I reset the W/H/Centering that it would default to a 100% non-scaled value, right? Like that makes logical sense... and I found out right at the end that's not the case so I have to redo everything with borders turned on the VTG 300 video testers' signal and manually adjust every single time and re-document (which I haven't gotten around to yet).

[strayan]

Yes, the Xbox 360 can output 848x480 with the VGA cable. I've never used the console's DVD playback feature, though.

I discovered today that the 360 will also output this resolution if it thinks it’s connected via DVI (you lose audio though). For games on a 480p plasma this is great.

I wonder which plasmas (that you can actually find) are 848 pixels wide and can take advantage of this. I've been stalking CL/FB for going on three? years now and all I can find for 480p-native Plasma sets are Panasonic PW(consumer) and PWD(professional) models, and those are all 852 pixels wide. Pioneer is the other coveted brand, but not a one has shown up in all that time (and def not the 4:3 model), and theirs is 853 weirdly enough. There's some others: Samsung (852 on the couple model numbers I checked), and NEC, Sony, Hantarex – those I know little about and could very well share a panel with some other brands.

4 Pixels doesn't sound like a huge deal, right? But when it's impossible to reset the geometry width/height/centering setting to 100% pixel-perfect on the Panasonics (their reset values are already scaled), and when Plasma display technology itself has pretty CLEARLY defined 'pixels' (meaning you can see each individual plasma gas cell clearly because their is not too many in a 42" space), being those 4 pixels off will can give you image artifacts all over the place – usually in 5-17+ vertical columns (so say my tests I've been doing lately), especially when you have to deal with an analog signal type like VGA on top of it.

...just a FYI for others as I've been trying really hard (have like 5? 480p-native plasmas now) to get a perfect image on these things in 480p and so far it's been impossible I'm sorry to say. Still REALLY like them, they still kick LCD's butt (even with an upscaler) for 480p content which is why I keep them around, but still not perfect (especially for all the 720-pixel wide 'anamorphic widescreen' content of even earlier systems which needs to stretch to 848/852 pixels wide, thus kinds destroying the pixel-perfectness).

All my 480p plasmas have DVI inputs and I use these inputs exclusively. It doesn’t matter if it’s 848 or 852, it will just leave a couple of columns blank where necessary. Swapping to the VGA input stuffs this up, just like in your experience.

480p plasmas are super common where I live. I see at least 5 a week on FB. Grundig, NEC, LG, Sony, Panasonic, Hitachi, Pioneer, Philips etc. I’ve been through practically all of them now.

[Fudoh]

Next to deinterlacing, this was one of the main purposes for using an external scaling device back then. If you're using an external scaler, you can set the scaler's output to natively match your panel and then you do all the source picture sizing on the processor instead. This way you could set 852px width on the scaler and simply tell the scaler to map the 848px source 1:1 onto the output.

Or, indeed, go digital, as suggested by strayan.

[Dochartaigh]

All my 480p plasmas have DVI inputs and I use these inputs exclusively. It doesn’t matter if it’s 848 or 852, it will just leave a couple of columns blank where necessary. Swapping to the VGA input stuffs this up, just like in your experience.

480p plasmas are super common where I live. I see at least 5 a week on FB. Grundig, NEC, LG, Sony, Panasonic, Hitachi, Pioneer, Philips etc. I’ve been through practically all of them now.

Unfortunately these Panasonics (owned PW/PWD models 4 up to don't have DVI unless you get the quasi-rare input card (TY-42TM6D I believe - missed out on one a month ago on eBay!). Even then it's DVI-D (digital) only, and doesn't have the pins to hookup analog like VGA to it like we're talking about. I know the Pioneer (PDP?) guys use the DVI a lot and and DO have better experiences with it, and was the first thing the plasma FB group asked me if I used.

What part of the world/country to you live in to find them all the time? I'm in NYC metro area (closer to Philly) and yeah, over the years I could have driven to NYC once or twice to pickup another brand (usually like 5 times what I paid for mine) but just wasn't worth the ~4 hour round trip for me right then.

Next to deinterlacing, this was one of the main purposes for using an external scaling device back then. If you're using an external scaler, you can set the scaler's output to natively match your panel and then you do all the source picture sizing on the processor instead. This way you could set 852px width on the scaler and simply tell the scaler to map the 848px source 1:1 onto the output.

Not that I want to add another scaler to my life, but the only ones I have used like that on other screens is the DSC 301 HD and OSSC... both of whose HDMI output won't play nice with these Panasonics without a special card (unless I go analog > digital > then use a dongle to go back to analog). What were you using?

I also don't know how I would do this is there's NO way to get the Panasonic to display a 1:1 source without eyeballing it manually. When you reset the Panasonic's settings for instance, and I take my pattern generator and output a 852x480 signal, complete with edge border so I can see exactly where it ends... the pattern isn't only off-center, but it's stretched both horizontally and vertically - would have to manually fix/scale it, then I guess run it through the DSC 301 HD (with HDMI to VGA dongle on the output side). The DSC 301 HD has test patterns too, so I could run a 852 through it then I guess. Also that same issue of the Panny not having valued next to the settings you changed so I would have to figure out a system for that if I wanted to switch to some other console. ...not to mention how these early plasmas are plagued by lag, which I normally do NOT care about whatsoever... but add the ~1.5 frames from the DSC on top of that and I might actually notice it for once... I'm making excuses... just sucks there's no easy way to do what I thought was pretty simple (i.e. get nice crispy native 480p on my plasma with no scaling issues!).

[strayan]

What part of the world/country to you live in to find them all the time?

Sydney, Australia. No idea why they’re so common here.

Here’s a Pioneer which might have a DVI input near you https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 170593234/

A cursory look indicates there are actually quite a few 480p sets in your area.

I used to use a Kramer FC-31xl to convert VGA to DVI. This has useful dip switches to adjust sampling. This gave better results than using the TVs native VGA input. Also supports 848x480.

[strayan]

Sticking a Extron RGB interface between the VGA source and sink also improved the picture for memory.

[fernan1234]

Can the Xbox 360 output "TV mode" video (480i) when using the VGA cable?

[BazookaBen]

Can the Xbox 360 output "TV mode" video (480i) when using the VGA cable?

I'm sure if you shorted the right pins you could make the xbox 360 think it's a scart cable. But I don't know what you'd have to do for sync. Good chance the H and V pins will become disabled.

[matt]

Can the Xbox 360 output "TV mode" video (480i) when using the VGA cable?

I'm sure if you shorted the right pins you could make the xbox 360 think it's a scart cable. But I don't know what you'd have to do for sync. Good chance the H and V pins will become disabled.

The 360 does have a SCART mode. It uses composite video for sync, and the H/V pins are inactive, so you may need a sync stripper.

The easiest way to make an Xbox 360 15khz RGB cable (in these non-SCART lands) is to use an official component cable. You only need to ground one wire, and the cable's "HDTV" mode will change to SCART. This is handy since you can switch between RGB and 480i component using the cable's mode select switch.

[fernan1234]

I'm sure if you shorted the right pins you could make the xbox 360 think it's a scart cable. But I don't know what you'd have to do for sync. Good chance the H and V pins will become disabled.

The 360 does have a SCART mode. It uses composite video for sync, and the H/V pins are inactive, so you may need a sync stripper.

The easiest way to make an Xbox 360 15khz RGB cable (in these non-SCART lands) is to use an official component cable. You only need to ground one wire, and the cable's "HDTV" mode will change to SCART. This is handy since you can switch between RGB and 480i component using the cable's mode select switch.

Thanks for info guys! I think I may get around any sync issues with my Extron RGB interface.

I do have an official component cable with the TV/HD mode switch, though I'd probably just get a spare one in case I botch this. Anyone know which wire exactly I would need to ground? Doing this would be great as the 360 is my only system left using YPbPr (for original Xbox games).

[matt]

Thanks for info guys! I think I may get around any sync issues with my Extron RGB interface.

I do have an official component cable with the TV/HD mode switch, though I'd probably just get a spare one in case I botch this. Anyone know which wire exactly I would need to ground? Doing this would be great as the 360 is my only system left using YPbPr.

If you're going to use the Extron, you will definitely need a sync stripper. Fortunately there's plenty of room inside the cable housing for one.

I'll have to go look at my notes and will get back to you on the cable mod.

[fernan1234]

If you're going to use the Extron, you will definitely need a sync stripper. Fortunately there's plenty of room inside the cable housing for one.

I'll have to go look at my notes and will get back to you on the cable mod.

The Extron RGB interface (at least the one I use -- Rxi 203) doesn't seem to need sync stripping for composite sync. I think needing sync strippers is an issue with the "popular" Extron Crosspoint matrix lineup. But, if it is needed it's good to know there's room for it.

Thanks a lot for looking it up!

[NewSchoolBoxer]

My Xbox 360 died 2 years ago but I kept the hard drive and want to buy it back. Official VGA cables for it are so cheap. Put Nintendo and Nintendo to shame.

Yes, the Xbox 360 can output 848x480 with the VGA cable. I've never used the console's DVD playback feature, though.

I discovered today that the 360 will also output this resolution if it thinks it’s connected via DVI (you lose audio though). For games on a 480p plasma this is great.

Unfortunately DVDs reverts to 720x480 during playback.

So we have 480p VGA RGB (VGA) for CRT and digital RGB (DVI or HDMI) options. I see there exists an audio breakout adapter for Toslink and RCA stereo. You could get sound through that with simultaneous video output from the multi out right? Would Toslink audio be higher quality than audio sent over HDMI?

All my 480p plasmas

I see one every now and then on Craigslist or Goodwill for $50-100. VGA on those that accept it would have minimal input lag right?

[strayan]

So we have 480p VGA RGB (VGA) for CRT and digital RGB (DVI or HDMI) options. I see there exists an audio breakout adapter for Toslink and RCA stereo. You could get sound through that with simultaneous video output from the multi out right? Would Toslink audio be higher quality than audio sent over HDMI?

All my 480p plasmas

I see one every now and then on Craigslist or Goodwill for $50-100. VGA on those that accept it would have minimal input lag right?

I have ordered one of those rca/toslink breakout adapters.

I have tested about 7 480p sets now with a TimeSleuth. The quickest was Hitachi at 24ms (when displaying 720p to 1080i only). For some reasons 480 varied between 24 and 44ms.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

I have ordered one of those rca/toslink breakout adapters.

I have tested about 7 480p sets now with a TimeSleuth. The quickest was Hitachi at 24ms (when displaying 720p to 1080i only). For some reasons 480 varied between 24 and 44ms.

Awesome so you'll let us know if you can't get video with the audio breakout adapter. That the 360 can play audio from CD or USB connected device, I'm not certain the adapter plays audio from video game with its video over HDMI.

24ms is very agreeable. I didn't realize until I saw xeos' post that the input lag could vary with resolution and that higher resolution wasn't necessarily worse. I asked about VGA but I meant analog in general. Way I think I understand plasmas, is that they are similar to CRTs in that the voltage level applied to the electrons in the plasma creates photons. If this is an analog process then analog input should have less input lag. LCDs as we know are digital so there is additional input lag when converting analog inputs to 0-255 RGB values.

[maxtherabbit]

Plasmas TVs all have digital processing

[NewSchoolBoxer]

Plasmas TVs all have digital processing

Thank you, I couldn't find the answer on the internet, which felt like the end of the world. So if I'm going to plasma or LCD, I can't think of a reason to use VGA over HDMI/DVI. VGA is 4:4:4 (uncompressed) but Xbox 360 RGB color space is 4:4:4. Plus cable quality doesn't matter nearly so much with digital.

[Dochartaigh]

Plasmas TVs all have digital processing

Thank you, I couldn't find the answer on the internet, which felt like the end of the world. So if I'm going to plasma or LCD, I can't think of a reason to use VGA over HDMI/DVI. VGA is 4:4:4 (uncompressed) but Xbox 360 RGB color space is 4:4:4. Plus cable quality doesn't matter nearly so much with digital.

Make sure the plasma has a digital input - none of my 4 or 5 Panasonics do - YPbPr/Component or VGA only. Need special hard to find cards to get DVD-D or HDMI ports on those.

[strayan]

I have ordered one of those rca/toslink breakout adapters.

I'm not certain the adapter plays audio from video game with its video over HDMI.

I can confirm that audio from the breakout adapter works when using the HDMI output for video games or DVD playback.

[matt]

If you're going to use the Extron, you will definitely need a sync stripper. Fortunately there's plenty of room inside the cable housing for one.

I'll have to go look at my notes and will get back to you on the cable mod.

The Extron RGB interface (at least the one I use -- Rxi 203) doesn't seem to need sync stripping for composite sync. I think needing sync strippers is an issue with the "popular" Extron Crosspoint matrix lineup. But, if it is needed it's good to know there's room for it.

Thanks a lot for looking it up!

OK, I finally had time to make writeup of the procedure. Sorry it took a few days! I put it in a separate thread:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68175

I haven't tried using an Rxi 203, but my RGB 192 won't take sync on composite and does require a sync stripper. That would be awesome if yours is OK without it, since it makes the mod much simpler.

[strayan]

Yes, the Xbox 360 can output 848x480 with the VGA cable. I've never used the console's DVD playback feature, though.

I discovered today that the 360 will also output this resolution if it thinks it’s connected via DVI (you lose audio though). For games on a 480p plasma this is great.

Unfortunately DVDs reverts to 720x480 during playback.

So it turns out that DVDs can be rendered at 848x480. You just need to bring up the playback controls and cycle through the “Display mode” option.

Best I’ve ever seen a DVD look.

[digitron]

How well does the system handle different resolutions when using a HDMI/VGA adapter as opposed to using VGA direct?

I can't tell a difference or issues when I use HDMI to a VGA converter. You can manually switch resolutions in the settings.

Just got my 360 connected to my VGA CRT and wow, it looks amazing. Way better than the LCD. Running at 640x480, just wondering if there is any lag in these https://www.amazon.com/Kanex-Adapter-Su ... B01AT3GR1S, am I better off getting the official 360 VGA cable to the VGA CRT instead of using the HDMI out?

https://i.imgur.com/mmyu4d4.jpg

My monitor stand is a one-off, very rare, official Cave, will consider selling for 500,000 jp yen

[matt]

That adapter shouldn't cause any lag.

However, a VGA cable is better if you're using a PC monitor. It will allow you to run games at other resolutions, such as 1024x768, that aren't available through HDMI.

Cave Shmups render at 640x480, so if you're playing those it should be fine either way.

[strayan]

However, a VGA cable is better if you're using a PC monitor. It will allow you to run games at other resolutions, such as 1024x768, that aren't available through HDMI.

Those other resolutions are available if the 360 thinks it’s connected to a DVI sink.

[emphatic]

Get the official VGA cable, the difference compared to a 3rd party cable is immediately visible.

[BazookaBen]

I have the monster VGA cable, it is also pretty great. I still think you can find them new too

[matt]

Those other resolutions are available if the 360 thinks it’s connected to a DVI sink.

This sounds interesting. How do you accomplish that?