Decent 15khz RGB/VGA capture solution via USB?

[Sumez]

Heya. I promised I'd help a friend with setting up some direct feed arcade capture for his live streams. He's using a beefy laptop for his streaming purposes, so it would have to be via USB.

Personally I have a setup using Startech PEXHDCAP card which eats the video output directly from any JAMMA board, pretty much without complaints (following a schematic which just adds a 220 ohm resistor to each of the R, G and B signals), via the VGA input on the card.

I haven't looked much into it, but I'm assuming the same would be possible with Micomsoft's "XCapture-1 USB 3.0" unit(?).
However, that one is pretty expensive. Is there any affordable alternative that I could consider looking into?

The video quality isn't important. If we get something resembling composite video, that's really not a problem, as long as it doesn't damage the ability to decipher the action of the game in question (eg. via heavy attempts at "deinterlacing"), and the feed needs to be without any really noticeable lag (100ms is fine, 1000ms is not), since it's going to be used for live streaming.

Any suggestions?

[Fusion916]

I have not see any modern capture equipment able to properly capture 15khz 60fps non-interlaced (240p) correctly.

I have a very old (mid 2000s maybe?) PCI capture card specifically for this purpose. Would appreciate if there was a modern solution...

Heya. I promised I'd help a friend with setting up some direct feed arcade capture for his live streams. He's using a beefy laptop for his streaming purposes, so it would have to be via USB.

Personally I have a setup using Startech PEXHDCAP card which eats the video output directly from any JAMMA board, pretty much without complaints (following a schematic which just adds a 220 ohm resistor to each of the R, G and B signals), via the VGA input on the card.

I haven't looked much into it, but I'm assuming the same would be possible with Micomsoft's "XCapture-1 USB 3.0" unit(?).
However, that one is pretty expensive. Is there any affordable alternative that I could consider looking into?

The video quality isn't important. If we get something resembling composite video, that's really not a problem, as long as it doesn't damage the ability to decipher the action of the game in question (eg. via heavy attempts at "deinterlacing"), and the feed needs to be without any really noticeable lag (100ms is fine, 1000ms is not), since it's going to be used for live streaming.

Any suggestions?

[nmalinoski]

Does the capture absolutely need to handle 240p? Would it make sense to use a line-doubler (like the OSSC) to upscale the signal to 480p, then use something like the Elgato Cam Link for capture? Should cost less overall than a Micomsoft X-Capture.

[Sumez]

Well, the output is 240p. Does an Elgato combined with OSSC really cost less total than the X-Capture USB? :O
That is of course one solution.

[nmalinoski]

Well, the output is 240p. Does an Elgato combined with OSSC really cost less total than the X-Capture USB? :O
That is of course one solution.

Somewhat; eheh. Assuming OSSC with remote and power supply, you're looking at about $230 USD, and the Elgato Cam Link is $113 on Amazon at the moment; compared to $417 shipped for the cheapest XCAPTURE-1 on eBay right now. :/

[FinalBaton]

The USB3HDCAP is the same as XCAPTURE-1 (minus passthrough ports) and can be had for at least $150 US less (on amazon.com it currently sells at $180 for brand new unit).

Some people have had issues with the drivers of both cards though, so it's something to consider I guess.

I have a USB3HDCAP and never had a problem with it.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Cheap Dazzle USB unit works just fine despite the world thinking they need to shell out big bucks. NCH Debut software with Lagarith lossless video codec installed, set to record uncompressed audio and set to deinterlacing while recording. Then use Sony Vegas to rotate and crop and output at HD 1440 or higher at super high bitrates, then you get the good youtube bitrates.

Well, that is, unless you have to have 60fps. If you have to have 60fps I can't help you. This would be 30fps.

[Sumez]

I never heard of Dazzle. Only seems to take S-Video and Component as far as I can tell, so I guess you'll need an RGB to component encoder? Or is there a way to feed it a direct RGB signal?
I have no idea what the other stuff you said was. Also, 30fps is fine as far as I'm aware. It just needs to be live (ie. no noticeable delay on the stream). From what I can tell, the Dazzle looks like a device very similar to my Hauppauge HD, which does add around 1-1.5 sec of delay.

Is this the one you are talking about? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dazzle-DVD-Rec ... dazzle+usb

The USB3HDCAP is the same as XCAPTURE-1 (minus passthrough ports) and can be had for at least $150 US less (on amazon.com it currently sells at $180 for brand new unit).

Yes, that's the price I had in mind for that. The Xcapture-1 and Usb3hdcap were interchangeable in my mindset.

[nmalinoski]

I never heard of Dazzle. Only seems to take S-Video and Component as far as I can tell, so I guess you'll need an RGB to component encoder? Or is there a way to feed it a direct RGB signal?
I have no idea what the other stuff you said was. Also, 30fps is fine as far as I'm aware. It just needs to be live (ie. no noticeable delay on the stream).

It looks like it takes S-Video and composite, not component; and there doesn't seem to be any way to feed it RGB without degrading it with an RGB/VGA-to-S-Video/Composite encoder.

You may also want to reconsider recording at 60fps, because 30fps will eliminate any kind of rapid flashing and make sprites disappear. For example, in games that rapidly flash the main character sprite to show that you've taken damage, the character can completely disappear for viewers for several seconds.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I never heard of Dazzle. Only seems to take S-Video and Component as far as I can tell, so I guess you'll need an RGB to component encoder? Or is there a way to feed it a direct RGB signal?
I have no idea what the other stuff you said was. Also, 30fps is fine as far as I'm aware. It just needs to be live (ie. no noticeable delay on the stream). From what I can tell, the Dazzle looks like a device very similar to my Hauppauge HD, which does add around 1-1.5 sec of delay.

Is this the one you are talking about? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dazzle-DVD-Rec ... dazzle+usb

The S-Video is the only good option on it. My bad if that isn't available in your country. You would need an RGB to S-Video encoder in your supergun setup and a car audio converter for turning the audio to RCA. You would want to split them off so you could run them into a CRT monitor to play on and your PC at the same time. You would not want to play games while looking at the PC recording setup to play, there would be delays. Sorry I think I misunderstood the lag part of your post, my bad, was tired. That Dazzle you linked to would do but you can usually find them cheaper. Converters and splitters are super cheap.

It looks like it takes S-Video and composite, not component; and there doesn't seem to be any way to feed it RGB without degrading it with an RGB/VGA-to-S-Video/Composite encoder.

You may also want to reconsider recording at 60fps, because 30fps will eliminate any kind of rapid flashing and make sprites disappear. For example, in games that rapidly flash the main character sprite to show that you've taken damage, the character can completely disappear for viewers for several seconds.

If you use S-Video and follow the other things I posted the end result looks fine. About the fps, that actually isn't true. I know why you are assuming it, because when people used to record mame at 60fps and then upload that to youtube, youtube's algorithm (at the time) was boneheaded and would simply drop every other frame to move it to 30fps. But when you record a pcb at 30fps nothing ever disappears like that in the recording. I've recorded dozens of pcbs with a Dazzle, never had sprites disappear like that.

[Sumez]

The S-Video is the only good option on it. My bad if that isn't available in your country.

I think you'll have a hard time finding arcade boards that output S-Video no matter what country you live in.

You would not want to play games while looking at the PC recording setup to play, there would be delays.

Of course not When talking about low lag I was simply talking in regards to visible reactions, button presses, etc. on the stream somewhat matching what was going on in the direct capture feed. The idea is still to play games on original arcade cabinets, but splitting the video output to a capture device at the same time.

You may also want to reconsider recording at 60fps, because 30fps will eliminate any kind of rapid flashing and make sprites disappear. For example, in games that rapidly flash the main character sprite to show that you've taken damage, the character can completely disappear for viewers for several seconds.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a capture device that only support a 30hz capture from a 15khz feed is most likely doing some kind of deinterlacing that would split the frames that show the flashing sprite with the ones that don't. Yeah, it's still not optimal, but I'm just looking for a decent looking stream, not a super professional setup.
What you're talking about sounds more like what would happen when streaming emulator footage directly from the same PC via a service/compression algorithm that just discards every second frame.

[FinalBaton]

Yes, that's the price I had in mind for that. The Xcapture-1 and Usb3hdcap were interchangeable in my mindset.

Ah, gotcha. I wasn't sure you knew about the Startech variant, and since the price is $180 instead of $400 I wanted to make sure you knew about it.

[Sumez]

That's nice of you, of course I actually forgot that there were two different brands. My PEXHDCAP is the Startech variant, too.

[FinalBaton]

This discussion just made me realize that there's pretty much no RGB 60fps capable capture card under the $180 treshold. Or at least none that I know of. If there are then it'd be interesting to test how they stack up against higher end cards.

[Fusion916]

Of all of the options you guys are discussing, are you sure they can really capture 240p non-interlaced at 60fps?

I have some reference captures at home I'll try to upload later. Even if it's very expensive I'd love a modern capture card (USB/PCIe) that does this.

[Sumez]

Just to reiterate - for my purpose, 60fps is absolutely not essential

So far it seems Usb3hdcap is still the winner.

[Sumez]

Managed to snatch a USB3HDCAP from Amazon for £107 via their "warehouse" thing. Not exactly cheap, but a lot cheaper than the standard price, and apparently cheaper than every other potential solution (chaining up an OSSC, etc.).

Hooked it up via the "thrillness" drivers as suggested here. Maybe it's just that my new laptop is really good, but it seems a lot less CPU intensive than the PCIe variant (PEXHDCAP), and the video quality is close to perfect. And supposedly this thing even supports composite video too? This is really great!
According to the blog post linked above, RGB capture requires both Hsync and Vsync, but that's not true. It works fine with only Hsync. I guess it's referring to the fact that composite sync won't work, and you need a sync stripper for most consoles. What matters is that I can use the connectors that I've built for my PEXHDCAP as they are, and it works perfectly.

[nmalinoski]

[quote="Sumez"]According to the blog post linked above, RGB capture requires both Hsync and Vsync, but that's not true. It works fine with only Hsync. I guess it's referring to the fact that composite sync won't work, and you need a sync stripper for most consoles./quote]
Could you please rephrase this? Are you saying this thing accepts no form of composite sync--composite video, luma, clean composite sync--or are you saying that it requires clean composite sync and won't take composite video (nor, I assume, luma or sync-on-green) as sync?

[FinalBaton]

Nice to know you got a card you're happy with Sumez!
Yep, it supports composite video, S-video and component too!

I can confirm it works with composite sync, my setup is consoles going through an Extron Switcher and the card likes it just fine

unless you were talking about "composite video as sync" and not "composite sync"?

[Sumez]

Well, it's composite sync (directly from the JAMMA connector, or stripped from composite video using an LM1881), but I'm only using the Hsync pin on the VGA connector.

[maxtherabbit]

Well, it's composite sync (directly from the JAMMA connector, or stripped from composite video using an LM1881), but I'm only using the Hsync pin on the VGA connector.

that makes a lot more sense than what was being said before

describing this situation as "h-sync only" is misleading and inaccurate - no video sink I'm aware of will sync to "h-sync only"

feeding c-sync (which is of course h and v sync combined) on the h-sync VGA pin is a well known and supported convention, especially in devices with VGA inputs that support 15kHz content

[FinalBaton]

Well, it's composite sync (directly from the JAMMA connector, or stripped from composite video using an LM1881), but I'm only using the Hsync pin on the VGA connector.

Ah I see, I understand better now. I was confused with your previous post

It would be really weird if it didn't accept composite sync on the Hsync pin alone! It's strange that the blog mentionned that it didn't

[Sumez]

Yeah, the blog post specifically claims that composite sync won't work, as opposed to separate H and V.

feeding c-sync (which is of course h and v sync combined) on the h-sync VGA pin is a well known and supported convention, especially in devices with VGA inputs that support 15kHz content

I didn't know it was a widespread convention, but it definitely works on both this and the PEXHDCAP, which is all that matters to me.

[nmalinoski]

Yeah, the blog post specifically claims that composite sync won't work, as opposed to separate H and V.

feeding c-sync (which is of course h and v sync combined) on the h-sync VGA pin is a well known and supported convention, especially in devices with VGA inputs that support 15kHz content

I didn't know it was a widespread convention, but it definitely works on both this and the PEXHDCAP, which is all that matters to me.

I'm not sure if using RGBS over DE-15 cables is a widespread convention, but the devices that do support that (Extron, Kramer, OSSC) follow the convention of putting composite sync on the H-sync pin.

And do be careful when converting DE-15 and BNC to other connector types; the sync for RGBS and RGBHV coming out of pro equipment, like Extron CrossPoints, gets jacked up to ~5Vp-p, which tends to damage consumer equipment.

[maxtherabbit]

Yeah, the blog post specifically claims that composite sync won't work, as opposed to separate H and V.

feeding c-sync (which is of course h and v sync combined) on the h-sync VGA pin is a well known and supported convention, especially in devices with VGA inputs that support 15kHz content

I didn't know it was a widespread convention, but it definitely works on both this and the PEXHDCAP, which is all that matters to me.

I'm not sure if using RGBS over DE-15 cables is a widespread convention, but the devices that do support that (Extron, Kramer, OSSC) follow the convention of putting composite sync on the H-sync pin.

And do be careful when converting DE-15 and BNC to other connector types; the sync for RGBS and RGBHV coming out of pro equipment, like Extron CrossPoints, gets jacked up to ~5Vp-p, which tends to damage consumer equipment.

just about anything with a DE-15 input will tolerate 5Vpp sync, since that is the VGA spec