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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:54 pm 


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oh, you meant off-centered as in "the lower end of the monitor". I was just focused on the horizontal position - sorry about that.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:00 pm 


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Ah well yes. Not that it forbids rotating the display, but it's less convenient like this considering its size, and although today's monitors are very light I don't know if we can assume the imperfect distribution of weight won't put a bit too much strain over the vesa holes or the stand's mechanism.
Personally I haven't built custom plate to recenter it yet (note: VX3211), just handling it carefully and letting the bottom lay on a soft matter when in portrait/tate.
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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:48 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
The Viewsonic is better than the LG, you can be sure of that.

There's a new version called VX3276-MHD-2


Thank you Xyga, I'll check it out!


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:24 am 



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 11
Hi guys,
I'm looking for a monitor mainly to use with FM for retrogaming.
I want IPS and tate support (natively supported or via VESA mounting); but I'm note sure about resolution. I like scanlines for the best CRT effect so I was thinking about 1080p panel, but shouldn't 1440p be better in theory (240p->720p->1440p)?

Or can anyone suggest a 1440p panel good with scanlines?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:03 pm 


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unfortunately 1440p is no guarantee for good 720p upscaling. There are enough QHD panels which totally fail at upscaling a scanlined 720p image.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:20 pm 


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I’m glad I came across this thread. I’ve moved to a new temporary place and will be leaving most of my retro stuff in storage including my TV. I am planning to get a PC monitor to use with a new desk setup and hook up my PS4, Super NT and possibly my Framemeister with one or two consoles. For a moment I was looking at a ‘console gaming’ monitor for the PS4 such as the licenced by Sony BenQ or Asus units. These are TN panels, I do want a rotatable option for the odd shmup. Is lag/response really that much better on TN versus IPS, I’d prefer the latter for better colours and angles.

A native 1080p in 24 or ideally 27” with a rotatable stand and audio pass through for my speakers would be perfect. Something that scales 720p with scanlines would also be nice, my Bravia does an excellent job of this, do any monitors handle it well?

Advice on models would be much appreciated.

Many thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:47 pm 


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Quote:
Is lag/response really that much better on TN versus IPS, I’d prefer the latter for better colours and angles.

if you ever want to rotate your screen, but please dismiss TN right away. While TN is indeed acceptable for standard hoirizontal setups, it's a not good by any means on a vertical setup.

Quote:
A native 1080p in 24 or ideally 27” with a rotatable stand and audio pass through for my speakers would be perfect. Something that scales 720p with scanlines would also be nice, my Bravia does an excellent job of this, do any monitors handle it well?

you should check some reviews which demonstrate the upscaling quality, e.g. on prad.de . Many monitors do a very nice job (most/all Dell displays for example), but some really screw it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:21 pm 


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Ah thanks for the tips, on the previous page the Dell 2414H was mentioned and the 2417H seems to be the newer model, it does look very smart and has good reviews. Maybe I’ll try and find one at a good price. The LG 24MP88HV also caught my eye but it has a crappy stand. All those gaming monitors look plasticy and toy like.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:18 pm 


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I love my 2414s - great to this very day.

Dell even just had a U2419H, but I honestly can't tell what's new. It's a bit unusual for them to update the line again after the U2417H was already introduced inbetween. I would expect them to be rather similar - maybe a bit different when it comes to the stand, but after all the even the U2419H still rotates both ways, which is still rather unique.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:09 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Any recommendations regarding motion blur? I haven't been able to find any monitor that does backlight strobing at 60Hz, which would be necessary to clear up motion due to eye-tracking/persistence/sample-and-hold in 60fps games.

I know there was an old Dell model that did it a while ago, but it doesn't seem to be available anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:23 am 


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Have you used 60Hz strobing before ? It's rather tough on the eyes and there are considerable problems with horizontally scrolling games (forward/backward ghosting due to the timing of the strobing in relation to the frame cycle).

If you want strobing on a relative small but fast set the 32" FHD Sony TVs from a few years back had this option (while offering an extremely low lag).


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:28 pm 



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I haven't seen it in person, but based on what I've been reading it sounds like it was a good way to emulate CRT-like motion clarity if you could stand the flicker. It's supposed to be more noticeable than the flicker of a CRT though.

I believe what those Sony TVs did was black-frame-insertion. A lot of current TVs do it too. It's a neat trick but it has its limitations, and the results cannot be as smooth as, at least in principle, a strobing backlight. One of their recent TVs, the F900 I believe, does another kind of BFI adjusted to only certain zones of the picture depending on brightness, which sounds like it could produce really interesting (maybe great, maybe bad) results for games, but it only works at 120Hz unfortunately, so 60fps content would show doubling, like 30fps does on a CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:06 pm 


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Maybe, yes. On my big Sony I can select both, BFI and strobing, but the strobing has a 120Hz frequency, so it's not exactly made for gaming. On my smaller Sony I have the option, but judging from the hit in brightness I think it's strobing, not just BFI.

On my Sony OLED monitors I can enable a "rolling scan" which is really nice, but then again you might not be willing to spend that kind of money on 25".


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:20 pm 



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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Fudoh wrote:
unfortunately 1440p is no guarantee for good 720p upscaling. There are enough QHD panels which totally fail at upscaling a scanlined 720p image.

On second thought, I've a 2009 42" Panasonic TH-42PX80E (1366x768) plasma TV I could use.
Is there any chanche to rotate something as big as that without a wall mount, using a "desktop arm" instead, like you'd do with smaller monitors? Can't find a proper one.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:14 pm 


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There are suitable wallmounts.

But 768p panels are RARELY able to upscale scanlined 720p images and retain a proper look of the scanlines. Keep that in mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:57 pm 



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If a display is primarily for Mame, and you are not going to invest in a decent scaler like a framemeister, you want to find one with a native res that is as close to the source as possible.

The best displays are the ones that produce a great image with little or no image processing. If it has to be an LCD, the ideal (for Mame) is if you can find a native 480p panel. They aren't so easy to find these days though.

One option, if you can find it, is the Sony LMD-2010 - a 20" 4:3 480p LCD monitor. They use BNC connectors but it's easy to find scart to BNC adapters. I saw one recently and vintage games looked as nice as I have seen on a flatscreen.

Pioneer made a 40" 4:3 480p plasma which is the ultimate flatscreen for vintage gaming. Keep an eye on ebay...

But... if you are in Europe, why not grab one of the many Sony Trinitron CRT tv's with scart that people are throwing away? No LCD will ever do as good of a job with 240p content as a CRT with RGB.... Unless you live in a tiny apartment it's the best and cheapest option.


On 768p displays, I agree that they aren't great for 240p usually but, they are great for EGA games like Daytona, Sega Ralley etc. if you are a driving game fan, they are worth picking up as a second monitor.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:57 pm 



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 11
Thanks for the feed, very appreciated; I'll try then decide. I already have a CRT but it's a 29" I wouldn't wanna rotate, too impractical.
I currently use that Panasonic set (rarely nowdays) for WiiU and X360 at 720p and I'm quite happy with the result, but no scanlines indeed.
Anyway, I'm not considering to deface a wall just to rotate a few times, I'll stick with the initial idea of a pivoted monitor or an extra 19" CRT TV /PC CRT monitor (I've a Philips 109B5 that should work with my FM via HDMI-->VGA; at least X360 does).
I guess I'll experiment some and let you know about the results. :-)

Classicgamer wrote:
...
But... if you are in Europe, why not grab one of the many Sony Trinitron CRT tv's with scart that people are throwing away? ...

Here's fun one: a couple of weekes ago I went to my local dump and it was full or (mostly crappy) CRTs and I asked If I could get one... they said it's a no-no. :roll:


Last edited by pedroTFP on Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:04 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
There are suitable wallmounts.

But 768p panels are RARELY able to upscale scanlined 720p images and retain a proper look of the scanlines. Keep that in mind.

I can second this with personal experience. My Samsung LN32B360 has a 1366x768 panel, and any time I have scanlines enabled on my OSSC or UltraHDMI, they get scaled very unevenly. There's no way I can really play with scanlines looking right unless I'm on a 1080p or 4K display.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:21 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Fudoh wrote:
Maybe, yes. On my big Sony I can select both, BFI and strobing, but the strobing has a 120Hz frequency, so it's not exactly made for gaming. On my smaller Sony I have the option, but judging from the hit in brightness I think it's strobing, not just BFI.

On my Sony OLED monitors I can enable a "rolling scan" which is really nice, but then again you might not be willing to spend that kind of money on 25".


What model is that OLED monitor? Is it a P/BVM? I don't think the consumer sets have that function.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:41 pm 


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Two PVMs. 2541 and A250.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:14 am 



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Fudoh wrote:
Two PVMs. 2541 and A250.


Those must looks great. I've never been able to see a true RGB OLED in person.

How would you say the rolling scan performs compared to a CRT's motion resolution?


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:23 am 


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pretty much perfect. The 60Hz flicker is still more noticeable than on a CRT though and on the OLED you already have zero motion blur without the rolling scan. Yes, you got the limited resolution due to the motion persistence, but as long as I use a game that's scrolling horizontally, the rolling scan is still a tough sale. On a verticall scrolling title (with a horizontal display), where persistence on a LCD or OLED without rolling scan causes the scanlines to disappear, it's a valid option. It's an amazing effect when you turn on the rolling scan and all of a sudden you retain the scanlines while the screen scrolls vertically.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:57 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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That's interesting, even on a CRT fast vertical scrolling has a visible effect on the blank scanlines, not making them disappear completely like on flat panels, but essentially they look like interlace alternating scanlines. Too bad there's ghosting on horizontal scrolling.

I guess the real solution longterm will be high refresh rate monitors with adjustable BFI and/or strobing rates. So far it looks like a lot of manufacturers are not supporting 60hz flicker, which is needed for most retro games. I guess at least BFI could be done at the software level like Retroarch does, but that's not ideal if there are performance hiccups.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:21 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
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Fudoh wrote:
But 768p panels are RARELY able to upscale scanlined 720p images and retain a proper look of the scanlines. Keep that in mind.


My 768p Sony Bravia supports 1:1 pixel mapping using the D-Sub connector (I use a hdmi to vga adapter for all my consoles). Provided you can live with a small black border around everything you don’t need to upscale 720p content.


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:53 am 


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I'm also looking for some monitor advice! Mainly for Mame & RetroArch...

I’m considering upgrading from a 1080p to a 1440p G-Sync monitor by the end of this year and I'm trying to get an idea of what to aim for (May go for the AOC AGON AG271QG but i'm open to more suggestions) as well as some advice regarding shaders and scaling for certain RA cores and Mame in general for 1440p. Mostly for emulation of 240p consoles with games that may have occasional switching to 480i modes and scanline shaders that line up perfectly with both video modes and older arcade games with resolutions higher than the norm (Popeye, Sky Skipper, Paperboy)
Any RA users have experience with a 1440p display and how well existing CRT & LCD shaders scale under 1440p? I know 4K would probably be the silver bullet but it’s outside my budget…


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:13 pm 


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The ole Acer Predator XB270HU seems to still have the best total lag, according to TFT Central's review which put combined lag - input + response time - to about 5ms, which is amazing. Other options include the ViewSonic XG2703-GS QHD, the ASUS PG279Q, and some other stuff. The Predator got an update in the XB271HU but I'm not sure it's an improvement. The ASUS PG279Q was my first choice, but I did not like its backlight glow color.

As far as G-SYNC goes, I find spotty support for its always-synced promise. Lots of games in Steam have tearing of one kind or another even with it enabled. I haven't messed around with Retroarch in a little while - though I intend to again. I know some folks had trouble with it a couple years ago, but I think I got it working more or less to my liking. Groovy MAME, on the other hand, gave me problems when I last tried it.

As far as shaders going, there's ample resolution to make CRT emulation shaders work well. If money and GPU power are no problem, you might even look at some of the 4K upgrades to the 27" models, like this and similar models. (Personally I wouldn't bother as 1440p is a bit of a sweet spot right now.)


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 Post subject: Re: Which monitor to buy?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:01 am 



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 11
Ok,
just FYI here are the results of my weekend of testing with FM and some monitors\TVs:

-4:3 CRT Philips 109b50 monitor (up to 1080p; 31khz only): no image display via HDMI-> VGA. Strange, X360 works flawlessy. I guess I’could use this screen to tate for X360/DC Shmups.

-16:9 Panasonic Plasma TH-42PX8EA (1024 x 768): tried with FBX 720p profiles but scaling is somewhat wrog as you stated. I tried to set IMAGE->DVI in the FM to map 1024x768 but picture gest like split in 2 with a vertical band in the right half of the screen. I guess because the FM thinks 1024x768 is a 4:3 resolution maybe.
Any way to fix it?

-16:9 LCD Samsung LE32C450E1W (1360 x 768): image looks ok (few black pixels @720p around the borders), no too impractital to rotate, it just gets the job done.
It will probably be my main retro screen waiting for 4k OLEDs to be more affordable. :-)
Now I just need to find a VESA 200x200 arm for desktop. ^^'

Thanks to everybody for the help, much appreciated!


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