Color temperature for games and consoles: 6500K or 9300K?

[Ikaruga11]

Is there any information or database detailing which color temperatures were used with which games and game consoles?
I believe a lot of Japanese games and consoles including NES were developed on 9300k monitors since that is the color temperature standard in Japan (NTSC-J), and the reason the sky in Super Mario Bros. appeared purple for a lot of people is because their displays were calibrated with 6500k giving the blues a more purplish tint. 6500k is the standard in the United States with movies and broadcasts, which is why most film enthusiasts, calibrators and videophiles recommend that.
I remember when my Sony KD-XBR960 was professionally calibrated by an ISF/TH-certified calibrator, who calibrated with 6500k color temperature. The whites on my Wii menu were noticeably warm and had a yellow tint. When I switched to cooler temperature settings, the whites looked more pure and snow-like. I'm not sure if this is because of human perception, an issue with my TV or the calibration, or Wii games were designed on monitors calibrated with 9300k color temperature.

NES: 6500K or 9300K?
Master System: 6500K or 9300K?
Sega Genesis: 6500K or 9300K?
Neo Geo: 6500K or 9300K?
SNES: 6500K or 9300K?
PS1: 6500K or 9300K?
N64: 6500K or 9300K?
GameCube: 6500K or 9300K?
Wii: 6500K or 9300K?
Wii U: 6500K or 9300K?
Switch: 6500K or 9300K?
etc. etc.

These threads expands on the discussion a bit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... _6500k_or/
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... _or_9300k/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC-J
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/what- ... 452928342/
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/99 ... s/71256391
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/144-ninte ... mepad.html

[FBX]

As I mentioned in the other thread when you asked about palettes and color temp on PVM, the setting changes both composite and RGB at the same time, so the "Smooth" palette I made 'increments' in exactly the same fashion as composite does when you switch from D65 to D93.

That all being said, the regular NES in my opinion should be played in D93.

[Einzelherz]

Racking my brain for any other games that have purple skies.

Even the followup Mario games don't, iirc. Kirby doesn't. Most of the other black box games don't. Capcom games don't. Square, Enix, Tecmo, Hudson, Sunsoft don't. Konami's Rush n' Attack uses a seafoam color while the rest of their catalog is blue (Castlevania 2, maybe?). So we're going to base an entire theory around a couple of the earliest Nintendo games having an off color sky to claim that all Japanese games should be played in a colder color?

Okay.

And to respond to the Wii + calibrated set, yes 6500k's whites look yellow after spending a lot of time looking at incorrectly calibrated screens. The same is true going the other way. If you use 6500k and then look at 9300k all the whites look blue.

[GojiFan90]

I just play at D65 and don't worry about it any further than that. Hasn't diminished my enjoyment of any games yet!

[FBX]

Racking my brain for any other games that have purple skies.

Even the followup Mario games don't, iirc. Kirby doesn't. Most of the other black box games don't. Capcom games don't. Square, Enix, Tecmo, Hudson, Sunsoft don't. Konami's Rush n' Attack uses a seafoam color while the rest of their catalog is blue (Castlevania 2, maybe?). So we're going to base an entire theory around a couple of the earliest Nintendo games having an off color sky to claim that all Japanese games should be played in a colder color?

Okay.

And to respond to the Wii + calibrated set, yes 6500k's whites look yellow after spending a lot of time looking at incorrectly calibrated screens. The same is true going the other way. If you use 6500k and then look at 9300k all the whites look blue.

If you try Smooth on a PVM in D93, and actually looks pretty damn good. And I'm not talking just that blue shade of sky. Everything looks better in D93 for the NES. I firmly believe that's what was intended by Nintendo when they designed games for it.

I also want to point out that when I first made the PVM-Style palette based on D65, everyone freaked out and bitched about the piss-yellow look to the whites. I had to go back and redo the palette based on D93 to calm people's nerves

[Lawfer]

As I mentioned in the other thread when you asked about palettes and color temp on PVM, the setting changes both composite and RGB at the same time, so the "Smooth" palette I made 'increments' in exactly the same fashion as composite does when you switch from D65 to D93.

That all being said, the regular NES in my opinion should be played in D93.

What does D93 mean? 9300k? If so, would you know about the following?

NTSC PS1 6500k or 9300k?
NSTC PS2?
NTSC SNES?
NTSC N64?
NTSC Wii?
NTSC GameCube?

[FinalBaton]

I play all games at 93K on the NEC crt monitor(calibrated) and they all look their best at that color temp but for some reason Street Fighter games on SNES look their best at 65K, don't know what's up with that (maybe because those ports rely a lot on warmer colours and soft shadings?). I use the stock palette("Natural") that come with the NESRGB and that one also looks best at 93K in my setup. I'm not claiming this is what needs to be done though, just sharing my settings.

On my PVM though, I played everything at 65K and it looked great. I never bothered to try changing color temp too much on that monitor. I tried 93K once and it didn't look as accurate as 65K so I went back to 65 and left it there for good.

I just play at D65 and don't worry about it any further than that. Hasn't diminished my enjoyment of any games yet!

And I don't doubt that one second. The "search for perfection" is a rabbit hole that can easily take the focus away from the actual gaming experience and sometimes undermine it. Sticking to a picture you deem very good and stopping messing around with your setting is actually a wise move as far as I'm concerned (although I'm not saying this on the right forum, I realize that. lol). Still, great post Goji

[nissling]

How many of you have properly calibrated monitors? My BVM-20F1J is calibrated to 6500° Kelvin with a Spectracal C6 and CalMAN Video Pro. I could, at some point, make a separate profile to 9300° Kelvin but I really hate that color temperature.

[FinalBaton]

Since aperture grill monitors push more light through... it kinda makes sense to leave them at 65K, the more I think about it. It mirrors my experience I described in my post above, for one.

[Lawfer]

Since aperture grill monitors push more light through... it kinda makes sense to leave them at 65K, the more I think about it. It mirrors my experience I described in my post above, for one.

What about Shadow Masks then?

[nissling]

Light output doesn't really relate to colour temperature though.

In a certain way it actually does, but not really when it comes to displays.

Since 6500° Kelvin requires less energy than 9300° Kelvin, it can be achieved more easily with less light output. Tungsten lightbulbs also have lower light output than colder ones just like dimming a cold light source will make it look warmer. Still, I don't see why it would matter if a CRT has an aperture grill or shadow mask. In reality it would be more logical that CRTs with aperture grill have higher color temperatures and I do know that Sony were infamous for making their Trinitron sets cold in their factory preset (I'm referring to consumer TVs).

[Ikaruga11]

It says that Japan used NTSC-J (9300K) until July 24th, 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC-J This basically means consoles and games made by Japanese companies during 7th Gen and earlier should have all used 9300K. I suspect American console brands like Atari and Xbox would use standard 6500K though.

Light output doesn't really relate to colour temperature though.

Since 6500° Kelvin requires less energy than 9300° Kelvin, it can be achieved more easily with less light output.

Didn't know that. Why is that the case?

Tungsten lightbulbs also have lower light output than colder ones just like dimming a cold light source will make it look warmer. Still, I don't see why it would matter if a CRT has an aperture grill or shadow mask. In reality it would be more logical that CRTs with aperture grill have higher color temperatures and I do know that Sony were infamous for making their Trinitron sets cold in their factory preset (I'm referring to consumer TVs).

I'm thought consumer Sony Trinitrons were infamous for their "red push".

[Lawfer]

It says that Japan used NTSC-J (9300K) until July 24th, 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC-J

This basically means consoles and games made by Japanese companies during 7th Gen and earlier should have all used 9300K.

Yes, but what if you play NTSC U/C versions of japanese games?

[Ikaruga11]

It says that Japan used NTSC-J (9300K) until July 24th, 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC-J

This basically means consoles and games made by Japanese companies during 7th Gen and earlier should have all used 9300K.

Yes, but what if you play NTSC U/C versions of japanese games?

It would still be 9300K. It doesn't matter what region you're playing in or what version you're playing. If the graphics/visuals were designed on 9300K displays, then that's probably the color temperature they were intended to be viewed in.

I believe if the source material is paired with the source color temperature, whites won't look bluish or yellowish at all. Just perfect whites, reds, blues, greens, etc.

[nissling]

Didn't know that. Why is that the case?

Because a warm light source doesn't have as much radiation as a cold one. Have a look at this video for further explaination.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HnhIRPLWsM

I'm thought consumer Sony Trinitrons were infamous for their "red push".

Strange, but I assume this could be further investigated.

ross: Sure, I'm not denying that D65 is still with us nor that you cannot have more light with that temperature.

[Hoagtech]

I prefer warmer colors at nighttime and cooler colors in daytime.

My eyes just don't like bright white and blue hues in darker environments.

I understand the case by case Japanese programming vs western economics but that would drive me crazy having one more setting to tweak before I could play my games.

I already have to adjust my 75 Ohm switch dependent on console, Then adjust my HWIDTH and HPHASE then my VHEIGHT and VPHASE along with brightness Depending on console just to be able to sit down and play on Mitsubishi 37".

This would be nice if someone implemented a game by game color match so I didn't have to every time.

[Lawfer]

It says that Japan used NTSC-J (9300K) until July 24th, 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC-J

This basically means consoles and games made by Japanese companies during 7th Gen and earlier should have all used 9300K.

Yes, but what if you play NTSC U/C versions of japanese games?

It would still be 9300K. It doesn't matter what region you're playing in or what version you're playing. If the graphics/visuals were designed on 9300K displays, then that's probably the color temperature they were intended to be viewed in.

I believe if the source material is paired with the source color temperature, whites won't look bluish or yellowish at all. Just perfect whites, reds, blues, greens, etc.

So you are saying that when you play NTSC U/C versions of japanese games on an NTSC U/C console it would be just like playing NTSC-J versions of japanese games on an NTSC-J console? Wouldn't an NTSC U/C console output at an NTSC U/C color standard and a NTSC-J console output an NTSC-J standard, which is why some people reported that playing NTSC-J games on an NTSC-J console resulted in a darker picture then what they would usually get? Didn't the games gets mastered with NTSC U/C standard for their North American versions?

I am someone that pretty much has a library that consist of 99% japanese games, but on US consoles (since I don't understand japanese), so I really like to know which is best.

[Fudoh]

Color temp settings are not output (= console) related. It's about display calibration and what the original devs in japan had their monitors calibrated to. No publisher in Europe or USA would change a game's color palette to adjust to his or hers country's prefered monitor settings.

[FinalBaton]

My lil theory is that since aperture grille crts let more light go throu, they might have an easier time pulling off accurate whites and other very bright areas of a picture. And that in turn might make for a more accurate 65K picture overall : warmer colors are all there but they can coexist on the screen with whites and very bright colors that aren't overly yellow, but are instead on point.

I'm just having fun though, wondering if this and that. Please take this with a huge grain of salt and don't hold me accountable for spreading innacurate information I am not. just musing, is all

[FinalBaton]

Color temp settings are not output (= console) related. It's about display calibration and what the original devs in japan had their monitors calibrated to. No publisher in Europe or USA would change a game's color palette to adjust to his or hers country's prefered monitor settings.

The broadcast standard in Japan was 93K, right? so is it safe to assume that the majority of japanese games were developped on monitors set on 93K color temp? Or was the videogame standard completely different than the broadcast one? Or was there no consistensy at all, resulting in both color temperatures being used a lot by developers?

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm thought consumer Sony Trinitrons were infamous for their "red push".

That 'red push' was more to do with content than displays.

Since TVs from major Japanese manufacturers like Sony and Mitsubishi were usually set at around D93 out of the box, you had that infamous red push with old telecines and broadcast masters. On CRTs, with all that blue light being pumped out, those red/magenta skin tones looked more natural.

NTSC was also infamous for not handling reds all that well.

The red push on Sony televisions is well documented, and can be switched off with no ill effects.

[Fudoh]

I have imported a lot of movies from Japan in the 90s (laserdisc) and I can't say that I noticed much of a different mastering to their US or European counterparts.

The one colossal fuck I remember was the japanese DVD of Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi which turned out utterly tinted in red, because somebody in Japan obviously mastered it to look like it was watched on a 6500°K set when it was actually running on a 9300°K display.

[nissling]

The most recent Japanese Blu-Ray of Tokyo Monogatari is really red so it was most likely mastered at 9300° Kelvin. This issue was corrected on the Criterion release, which otherwise uses the same master.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0& ... 67&i=0&l=0

Ony my BVM, the only game I found so far that I found to be way too red (though not really tinted) is Donkey Kong Country. That's hilarious if something.

[Lawfer]

Color temp settings are not output (= console) related. It's about display calibration and what the original devs in japan had their monitors calibrated to. No publisher in Europe or USA would change a game's color palette to adjust to his or hers country's prefered monitor settings.

I wasn't sure because I know that US version and Euro version of animes in most cases have different colors levels or brightness levels compared to the japanese originals, from what people say online this is due to the "mastering" that they go trough before for their US or Euro releases. So I thought that games might have gone through a similar process, so you think in my case it might be better to try playing my retro japanese games in 9300k setting?

[Fudoh]

I know that US version and Euro version of animes in most cases have different colors levels or brightness levels compared to the japanese originals,

that's due to the 7.5 IRE offset between NTSC-U and NTSC-J formats. Unfortunately japanese carry this with them to this very day. Many japanese movies are terribly calibrated on DVD or Blu-Ray although the offset should have died out with the end of analogue video.

[Einzelherz]

Because this "what the developers intended" min/maxing drives me insane, I'm going to posit a theory that let's you all sleep at night.

Early games have some odd color choices because developers didn't concern themselves with the west. That's why on what, three titles? the NES can give you purple skies. Because the color palette was so limited they picked the one that they liked on a 9300k screen. Very very shortly later someone said "hey, we're selling to the west now" and they stopped picking that one particular color. The end.

This post brought to you by me spending more time than necessary playing one of my NESs through composite on an untweaked PVM 9L3 and switching the color temp. Yes whites look brighter in 9300k because they have a lot more blue. Yes they look yellower in 6500k because they have less.

[Ikaruga11]

Because this "what the developers intended" min/maxing drives me insane, I'm going to posit a theory that let's you all sleep at night.

Early games have some odd color choices because developers didn't concern themselves with the west. That's why on what, three titles? the NES can give you purple skies. Because the color pallet was so limited they picked the one that they liked on a 9300k screen. Very very shortly later someone said "hey, we're selling to the west now" and they stopped picking that one particular color. The end.

This post brought to you by me spending more time than necessary playing one of my NESs through composite on an untweaked PVM 9L3 and switching the color temp. Yes whites look brighter in 9300k because they have a lot more blue. Yes they look yellower in 6500k because they have less.

This forum is basically about getting the best possible image quality out of your games. You might if well have the correct color temperature while you're at it.

The idea is if you have a perfectly calibrated display with video content (i.e games, movies, TV, etc.) that matches the color temperature it was designed for, there won't be any yellow or blue tints in whites. You'll have pure whites with no warm or cool tints in the image. A true neutral image.

What would be great is if we knew exactly which consoles were developed with which color temperatures.

[FinalBaton]

What would be great is if we knew exactly which consoles were developed with which color temperatures.

Fudoh said on the last page that no console was designed with a color temp in mind. It was all up to the game studio to decide what to use for their game.

Because this "what the developers intended" min/maxing drives me insane

I hear ya. This echoes what I've written on the last page in the post where I quoted GojiFan90.

I just choose what looks good and that's it. Done.

[Einzelherz]

You'll have to explain what a pure white is to me, especially when we're talking about a palette of 54 colors. Largely because it's something subjective. 255,255,255/ffffff (which may or may not be a color in its palette, I honestly don't know) looks different if you're in 6500K or 9300K. One is more yellow and one is more blue. A calibrated display that matches the color grading of a film doesn't make white magically more white. It makes it the white of that display's calibration. Which you'd still call slightly yellow or blue. Especially if you're coming from the opposite side of the spectrum.

And until you can call up every game artist that worked on the console in the 80s and get detailed information on the hardware they used, I'm going to pass on your developer intent nonsense. Because remember, all games for any given console aren't made in the same studio.

Me personally? Since I've lived in the states my entire life I'll stick with the color temperature that most closely resembles my memory. You can keep your headache.

[Ikaruga11]

You'll have to explain what a pure white is to me, especially when we're talking about a palette of 54 colors. Largely because it's something subjective. 255,255,255/ffffff (which may or may not be a color in its palette, I honestly don't know) looks different if you're in 6500K or 9300K. One is more yellow and one is more blue. A calibrated display that matches the color grading of a film doesn't make white magically more white. It makes it the white of that display's calibration. Which you'd still call slightly yellow or blue. Especially if you're coming from the opposite side of the spectrum.

And until you can call up every game artist that worked on the console in the 80s and get detailed information on the hardware they used, I'm going to pass on your developer intent nonsense. Because remember, all games for any given console aren't made in the same studio.

Me personally? Since I've lived in the states my entire life I'll stick with the color temperature that most closely resembles my memory. You can keep your headache.

A pure white is the lightest possible hue without any color mixed in. Subjectively speaking, it would look "snow white". Objectively it would have a value of 255, 255, 255/ffffff like you said.

Oh, okay. I thought a display correctly calibrated to match the source color temperature of video content would have a balanced, neutral and 100% accurate image with true whites and undistorted colors.

Fudoh said on the last page that no console was designed with a color temp in mind. It was all up to the game studio to decide what to use for their game.

Actually, Fudoh simply said that color temperature isn't related to the signal output of the console, but rather the calibration of a display. Ultimately, even if a console or game wasn't designed with any particular color temperature in mind, they were still developed and mastered on monitors set to a certain color temperature, the developer approved the way it looked and shipped out the final product.

What I'm saying is the colors we're seeing may not be the colors the developers were seeing when they were making these games and consoles UI.