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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:58 pm 


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copy wrote:
So Rtings has posted their review of the new Sony X900F. 1080p lag has unfortunately gone up to 40.9 ms from the X900E's 31.5 ms. The F also drops component inputs. Pretty disappointing in those respects, because it otherwise looks good.

Personally I've been in TV limbo these last few months. I got an X900E, but I found the local dimming operations were sometimes distractingly noticeable (especially on HDR content), and the OSSC/SNES incompatibility nagged at me. I then tried the LG C7, but was really let down by the vertical banding issue, and worst of all is that my set has already developed four dead pixels after only three months.

Now I'm thinking I'll stick with the X900E. I'd rather put up with its local dimming than the C7's vertical banding. I'm okay with using the XRGB-Mini for NES/SNES.

The only further change I might make is to move up to a 55" X900E from my original 50" for my main TV, while the E line is still available. I've been spoiled by the size of the 55" C7 and would hate to go smaller now. Hopefully that will end my new TV saga, and I can finally go back to enjoying movies and games.

Aaaargh -_- so annoying. Sony, that was an opportunity to sell us gamers a low lag set!

Was waiting on the 900F review. disapointed. The input lag for 4k is better at least (24.2 ms), so if you only want to play 4k games then it should be good. Don't know how the other lower end Sony models perform (X800F and X850F), but with a lesser picture quality, they are less desirable. I remember reading that they have a significant drawback compared to the 900E. It's important to note though, that the 900F doesn't have the same processor as the 900E (X1) : instead it has the one that was in the 930E (X1 Extreme).

For now I think that I'll still go with the 900E, because having the option of a pure 1-to-4 upscaling of 1080p sources is VERY important to me(900F doesn't have that option), and also I can't go higher than 49" (my living room is not deep(really not in fact, it's way more large than deep) and thus I'm sitting close to the TV), even 49" is pushing it

EDIT : if it's 1080p upscaling is very good, I might go with the 900F. Low lag is also extremely important to me and I'll only be playing ps4 Pro on it, so at 4K I'm looking at 24 ms. very tempting


Last edited by FinalBaton on Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:31 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:10 pm 


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But I don't understand: they used to distinguish 1080p 60Hz (YUV?) with 1080p 60Hz 4:4:4 (RGB) in their lag tests, didn't they?
Now they don't anymore, the way it's presented I'm not sure we're shown the right thing.

Remember to be careful wih their reviews, some tests and comments they make are valuable, others are to be taken with a grain of salt and sometimes even don't make any sense.
(and seeing how often they've changed stuff lately i'm not sure they're very confident with some aspects themselves)
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:13 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Remember to be careful wih their reviews, some tests and comments they make are valuable, others are to be taken with a grain of salt and sometimes even don't make any sense.

Gotcha


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:20 pm 



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Once I emailed Rtings about the lag and different signals:

My question:
I have a question regarding lag.
You posted that the least lag is using 4k @ 60hz and 4k 4:4:4 chroma adds lag.

So what are you referring to?
4k 60Hz RGB? YPbPr?
4:2:2 or 4:2:0? Limited or full range?
Where you using 8bit?

Does gaming mode really improve lag?

I see this TV, when receiving 4:4:4 and goes into gaming mode disregard the rest of chroma information, using the chroma subsampling png test.
So does that mean that I can achieve the least lag just setting 4:4:4 and using gaming mode?

Reply:
The input lag depends more on the way the TV processes the signal, rather than the format of the signal itself. When set to the ‘PC’ icon the TV supports full chroma but the input lag is slightly higher ~37ms irrespective of a RGB, 4:4:4, 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 signal.

When in the ‘Game’ mode the TV has a lower input lag (~21ms) but disregards chroma information regardless of the source.

For lowest input lag, set the TV to the ‘Game’ special viewing mode and use any output from your graphics card.
------------------------------------------------

I was asking about a Samsung 4k TV I own and use as a monitor.
So the reason rtings doesn't show 2 different input lag tests (YUV and RGB) probably is because it doesn't matter.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:37 pm 


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Thanks fandangos!
But if I read what they say, maybe they assume that sort of behaviour is common for all TVs?
I still think they should clarify for their 1080p lag test for each individual set, personally I'm not convinced that it doesn't matter.
Or at least making it clear with the reader what he's looking at for the sake of precision.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:33 am 


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I must say I'm disappointed with the 1080p input lag rating on the X900F. I am looking to get a 4K tv but I'm spoiled by my Sony w900a's 19ms input lag rating. I guess I'll wait and see what the upcoming TCL series has to offer before I decide.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:41 pm 



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Too bad the X900F has that big input lag. For some time this was the TV I wanted. But then decided to keep my TV and get a Framemeister instead and I am quite happy with that decision.My current TV and the FM are a decent team. :D :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:24 pm 


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So. The 900F has 13ms of input lag at 1080p @120Hz. Well at least that makes it a more useable PC monitor, wether for 1080p games or for other aplications/desktop you wish to run at 1080p.

Still doesn't help with ps3 and Switch and OSSC though... but I don't use any of those, so I might bite... (although a TCL s405 could be nice too : but that has a lesser picture quality than the 900F it looks like. I can't get a P series TCL because they don't make 'em small enough)

Also, the 900F suposedly does some variant of black frame insertion that doesn't drop the brightness (or barely perceptible drop) and that barely flickers. X-motion clarity, they call it. Well I'd like to see that in person. (sadly this is not available in game mode. if I've understood correctly. someone please double check on that)


Last edited by FinalBaton on Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:48 pm 


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The E remains the better set for games imho, even just for the lag and no pwm at all.
The F has kinda lost that advantage, now it's just a good generalist TV.

That other BFI mode sounds like one of the refined fully-processed smooth motionflow features a la Sony, and therefore very laggy.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:59 pm 



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FYI

The B7 and C7 are identical apart from the stand. In the UK Curry's has an exclusive on the C7.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:09 am 


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Xyga wrote:
The E remains the better set for games imho, even just for the lag and no pwm at all.
The F has kinda lost that advantage, now it's just a good generalist TV.

That other BFI mode sounds like one of the refined fully-processed smooth motionflow features a la Sony, and therefore very laggy.

Didn't know the 900e had no PWM and the 900f did! That's good to know.

Yeah the BFI would be for sports in my case


Last edited by FinalBaton on Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:15 am 


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The F's PWM is @720Hz though so hardly noticeable, it will only make a slight difference with the E's motion.
Some people will prefer the one over the other...
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:57 am 


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Is the x900E series going to be discontinued or will it coexist with the F series?


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:39 am 


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I don't think so, like every year they'll clear the stock period.

EDIT: oh BTW I read that LG's long awaited new massive OLED factory should open in 2019, if they're going to manufacture smaller panels it'll probably be from there.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:15 pm 


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If LG made an OLED like the B or C series in size 43", I'd drop whatever I'm doing and rush to the store to get one. lol

Even if I was carrying a Faberger egg : I would straight drop that shit


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:55 pm 



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Xyga wrote:
Fudoh gave the best answer, the LG OLED B7 and C7 are the best choice. /thread ^^
(i've never paid much attention to the differences between the two though, they seem incredibly similar)

You might have noticed a Full-HD LG OLED, the A7 (model 55EG9A7 @ 999€ on sale) avoid though because it's got high 49ms input lag.



I had typed a more detailed post about the cheaper alternatives in Europe but my laptop's battery died without a warning and I've lost everything lol.
So I'll make it shorter than originally intended;

The Sony X720E a.k.a KD-55XE7005 in Europe (the last digit varies but I don't know the difference it makes) is about the only actually reviewed 'cheap' 55" LCD TV available in Europe that's decent for gaming needs (versatile but not great for HDR)
Compatibility with the OSSC is unkown, afaik, not guaranteed but it is reasonable to expect most multiple modes for 240p will work though not necessarily for all consoles (the SNES for instance might not display at all).
Careful the 55" and 65" have a VA panel, but the 43" and 49" are IPS (less recommended for TVs today)

The Sony KD-55XE9005 (which I believe is the X900E in the US) is higher-end and overall a better set then the 7005, and decent for HDR this time, but its price gets you so close to the LG OLEDs that it's no longer really worth it in comparison, as Fudoh suggests.



@copy: I think it was the SNES and 480p x2 modes that didn't work on the 900E, right? but everything else was ok (iirc, though I haven't read about it in details)
If that's so it's still a decent level of compatibility save for the SNES, then stuff like 480i and 480p are typically handled quite decently by Sony sets on their own, better than the average of manufacturers at least.
Anyway there's the LG OLEDs near the same price now so that matter is no longer important.



Someone still sells a 1080p OLED? Damn wish I could get that in the US.
Really wish there would've been more 1080p OLEDs...and at more than just 55 inches. (How is it they have no trouble making OLEDs 5-6", but somehow anything between there and 55" is too difficult?)


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:33 pm 


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The process for making large and bright OLED panels must be different from that of small and comparatively dim smartphone displays, maybe shrinking everything while preserving the properties of the large ones is very difficult?

Or they don't have infinite amounts of money to invest so they prioritize big tv displays? I think the new factory's main purpose will be to produce 65".

(obviously they're aware of the demand for smaller OLED tvs and monitors, but heh, since there's no serious threat from the competition they can take their time)
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:46 pm 


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I've got the 55B7V one
Great panel, ossc line X5 likes godness, 4K HDR gaming and movie (+ Dolby Vision !! ) 8)

Here are two small videos :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Ooyyp08pQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suymH1FagOM

I could only recommend it !!
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:34 pm 


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Vincent Teoh of HDTVTest just released a comparison video between the Sony XE90, XF90 and XE93 (known as X900E, X900F and X930E in North America). For those interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0GzpKxakZM


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:15 pm 


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He's just stating what we already know, that the 930E and 900F are better TVs overall....

But for the concerned gamer lag is still the #1 criteria and anything over 2 frames is unacceptable, for the concerned retrogamer the 900E/XE90 is still better.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:29 pm 


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Thanks xyga. I ended up buying the 900 E 75”.

It’s lag is tolerable and less noticeable in 3D polygon games than retro games.

It’s picture is fantastic but it looks bad from even a slight angle which annoys me because I placed it in the corner of my large living room.

I would have preferred an IPS but it seems VA is in more sets lately.

I do like the fact that I don’t have to worry about PWM strobing and even though I didn’t notice it on my last set. The picture on the Sony seems more stable.

I couldn’t think of a better tv in my size range for gaming.

I am hoping the LG OLED’s will get bigger 75+ and the Nvidia BFG looks interesting as well .

I have heard you can even root the 900e to do stuff like play emulators and stream your pc to your living room but I haven’t looked into it.

I love this TV. Minus the yellow brown viewing angles

Edit: replaced VA panel for TN
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:53 pm 


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There are no TN in the realm of TVs, except maybe on cheap pocket stuff, all LCD TVs are otherwise IPS or VA, and the former are less popular today yes.

People prefer the higher contrast and better blacks of VA despite the narrower angles, plus the IPS more easily come with visible quality issues like backlight bleed and bad uniformity.

OLED definitely solves all the issues there but regarding sise I don't think LG plan to make bigger-than-65" go mainstream.

They have an 88" 8K on the press though, expect super premium and it's less than certain that it'll be okay lag-wise and I don't even want to think about scaling.
EDIT: aw, didn't realize it's only a demonstration model. They had at least one 77" though, what's become of it?
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:04 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
He's just stating what we already know, that the 930E and 900F are better TVs overall....

But for the concerned gamer lag is still the #1 criteria and anything over 2 frames is unacceptable, for the concerned retrogamer the 900E/XE90 is still better.

not if you're only planning on gaming on your modern flat panel through 4k machines though (which is my case. I play all my older systems on CRT displays, and PS4 pro and PC on flat panel)


Last edited by FinalBaton on Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:08 pm 


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Of course, but who does that anyway ? Consoles cheat wih mutiplication and scaling, and true 4K gaming costs a liver or two. :mrgreen: :P

EDIT: I see the 77" LG OLED is still around but absurdly expensive of course.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:16 pm 


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Hoagtech wrote:
Thanks xyga. I ended up buying the 900 E 75”.

It’s lag is tolerable and less noticeable in 3D polygon games than retro games.

It’s picture is fantastic but it looks bad from even a slight angle which annoys me because I placed it in the corner of my large living room.

I would have preferred an IPS but it seems TN is in more sets lately.

I do like the fact that I don’t have to worry about PWM strobing and even though I didn’t notice it on my last set. The picture on the Sony seems more stable.

I couldn’t think of a better tv in my size range for gaming.

I am hoping the LG OLED’s will get bigger 75+ and the Nvidia BFG looks interesting as well .

I have heard you can even root the 900e to do stuff like play emulators and stream your pc to your living room but I haven’t looked into it.

I love this TV. Minus the yellow brown viewing angles

Hoagtech, could you expand on the input lag of the 900E a bit? How do you feel it affects your play in twitch games, like fighting games or very demanding FPS. 32ms does seem pretty manageable but I've never experienced that kinda lag myself so I'm wondering just how bad(or not) it hampers high-level twitch gameplay


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:23 pm 



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Buying TVs is such a nightmare with the panel lottery. The LG OLEDs look perfect for OSSC users combined with OLED contrast & low-persistence, but seeing that banding and so many reports of dead pixels makes it impossible to buy one. I wish manufacturers would simply sell a higher grade of display with longer warranty and where any of these defects would simply be grounds for an exchange.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:34 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
Hoagtech wrote:
Thanks xyga. I ended up buying the 900 E 75”.

It’s lag is tolerable and less noticeable in 3D polygon games than retro games.

It’s picture is fantastic but it looks bad from even a slight angle which annoys me because I placed it in the corner of my large living room.

I would have preferred an IPS but it seems TN is in more sets lately.

I do like the fact that I don’t have to worry about PWM strobing and even though I didn’t notice it on my last set. The picture on the Sony seems more stable.

I couldn’t think of a better tv in my size range for gaming.

I am hoping the LG OLED’s will get bigger 75+ and the Nvidia BFG looks interesting as well .

I have heard you can even root the 900e to do stuff like play emulators and stream your pc to your living room but I haven’t looked into it.

I love this TV. Minus the yellow brown viewing angles

Hoagtech, could you expand on the input lag of the 900E a bit? How do you feel it affects your play in twitch games, like fighting games or very demanding FPS. 32ms does seem pretty manageable but I've never experienced that kinda lag myself so I'm wondering just how bad(or not) it hampers high-level twitch gameplay


I play my 4:3 retro games on a Mitsibishi Megaview XC3725C and I couldnt be happier (5-7 ms input lag) and have a Sony W950 B 65" 1080p LCD that has 17ms of input lag that I occasionally play retro games on. That being said I noticed the lag in between those two models when playing SMB3 on NES as well as Rockman 1. I have a harder time landing on koopas when flying at full speed.

I thought the jump to 32 ms would be more severe but I considered retro games to be very playable on the 900E. You just notice a small delay when playing guitar hero or saving your self in mid jumps on platform titles. It's not a deal breaker but is noticeable to me.

I play PUBG on both sets and did not notice any lag between the 2 sony sets when playing my 3d shooters.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:03 pm 


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Thanks a ton bud!


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:36 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
I wish manufacturers would simply sell a higher grade of display with longer warranty and where any of these defects would simply be grounds for an exchange.

Ha ha, never. The base price would simpy be too high and put the sets off the consumer/mass market, which would be ill-percieved on the other end also "so you do sell lower grade products to us plebs after all!"

Maybe the day they've got a tech they know is nearly flawless, indestructible and affordable...wait, that would kill the market so...nah. Never.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:00 am 


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The new Sony 850 large IPS models (65" 75") are good if you're not obsessed with blacks, uniformity, and HDR.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x850f
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