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 Post subject: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:41 pm 



Joined: 07 Feb 2018
Posts: 134
Location: Austria
I am looking for a good setup for me to play my Retro Consoles (N64, Gamecube, Sega Saturn and Dreamcast) on a modern display. I have done some research already and for my gaming needs something like the OSSC or maybe even the Framemeister would be the best choice. I also want to upgrade my Panasonic 1080p with a 4k Display. I came across the info that some TV models have a big input lag which makes them not the ideal platform for Video Games.

are there some 55 inch 4K TV models out there especially suitable for Retro gaming. Is one brand (eg, Samsung, Sony or LG) more suitable for gamers than others?


ps: I am from Europe (Austria) to be precise, so I would be glad if you can recommend just TV Models available in Europe.

Thanks for your help in Advance.


Last edited by Revolver Ocelot on Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:50 pm 


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I don't know a ton about 4k TVs, but I know that the Sony XE90 supposedly has : great upscaling from 1080 to 4k, a good picture all around and 34 ms input lag for 4k games and 31.5 ms input lag for 1080p

The LG 4K OLEDs (B7 and C7 I think?) have pretty damn low input lag, I think it's 16ms? You'd have to double check that though. And also check if the A7 sets have the same input lag. Those are more expensive, as you can guess.

And also there's the TCL sets, but those have to be imported in Europe so I don't think you'll consider them.

If seem other people here with Vizio sets and even a Panasonic of two. But I can't say for sure if those sets are great for our purposes. Speaking of that, what will you do with this tv? Will it be your main TV for watching movies and other content? If so, will you be watching lots of sports on it also?

Hopefully forum members Fudoh and Xyga see this topic, they know a hell of a lot more about modern displays than I do so they're a better source to answer your question.


Last edited by FinalBaton on Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:03 am 


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It's very VERY hard to recommend anything except the 2017 LG OLEDs which are still available (at quite affordable prices) right now. The new 2018 models will be more expensive and the 2017 units are tested to work great with the OSSC. The B7 in 55" is about 1550 EUR in Germany and/or Austria.

The only thing the Framemeister does better than the OSSC is 480i deinterlacing. So - unless PS2 is your favorite system - you're likely better off with an OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:42 am 



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Ok thanks a lot for the info.


@FinalBaton I am looking for a general purpose TV. Will use it for movies (blu ray, UHD blue Ray from PS4 and Xbox One S, playing games on the modern consoles too and playing with Retro Cosoles (N64, Gamecube and Dreamcast)

@Fudoh Thanks for the infos about the frameister. Actually, I have PS2 and use it from time to time but not that often. The Dreamcast, Gamecube, and the N64 are in use way more often. In that case I will look for the OSSC instead.

My N64 only has the standard AV Cable but for my gamecube i bought an Rgb Scart Cable and for my Dreamcast, I have a VGA cable. The OSSC has a VGA port as far as I know so that is no problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:33 am 



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FinalBaton wrote:
I don't know a ton about 4k TVs, but I know that the Sony XE90 supposedly has : great upscaling from 1080 to 4k, a good picture all around and 34 ms input lag for 4k games and 31.5 ms input lag for 1080p

It should always be mentioned that the X900E/XE90 is not fully compatible with the OSSC, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:49 am 


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Fudoh gave the best answer, the LG OLED B7 and C7 are the best choice. /thread ^^
(i've never paid much attention to the differences between the two though, they seem incredibly similar)

You might have noticed a Full-HD LG OLED, the A7 (model 55EG9A7 @ 999€ on sale) avoid though because it's got high 49ms input lag.



I had typed a more detailed post about the cheaper alternatives in Europe but my laptop's battery died without a warning and I've lost everything lol.
So I'll make it shorter than originally intended;

The Sony X720E a.k.a KD-55XE7005 in Europe (the last digit varies but I don't know the difference it makes) is about the only actually reviewed 'cheap' 55" LCD TV available in Europe that's decent for gaming needs (versatile but not great for HDR)
Compatibility with the OSSC is unkown, afaik, not guaranteed but it is reasonable to expect most multiple modes for 240p will work though not necessarily for all consoles (the SNES for instance might not display at all).
Careful the 55" and 65" have a VA panel, but the 43" and 49" are IPS (less recommended for TVs today)

The Sony KD-55XE9005 (which I believe is the X900E in the US) is higher-end and overall a better set then the 7005, and decent for HDR this time, but its price gets you so close to the LG OLEDs that it's no longer really worth it in comparison, as Fudoh suggests.



@copy: I think it was the SNES and 480p x2 modes that didn't work on the 900E, right? but everything else was ok (iirc, though I haven't read about it in details)
If that's so it's still a decent level of compatibility save for the SNES, then stuff like 480i and 480p are typically handled quite decently by Sony sets on their own, better than the average of manufacturers at least.
Anyway there's the LG OLEDs near the same price now so that matter is no longer important.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:59 am 


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Allow me to be the party pooper and ask to Ocelot - is there a specific reason why you decided that now is the time to upgrade your TV? I'm asking because there are new standards around the corner that may (or may not) interest you, like variable refresh rate and dynamic HDR. Well, maybe not exactly around the corner, more like a year away..


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:09 am 


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Well for retro hardware it's more the basic specs and performance that matter anyway (response, lag, scaling etc)

Neither HDR nor variable refresh rate will help with the OSSC or FM, and blur reduction features on TVs are either flaky for that use or very laggy.

What you want for retro is basically a huge monitor.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:19 am 



Joined: 07 Feb 2018
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Xyga Thanks a lot for your answer as well. Too bad you lost the more detailed answer but even your shorter answer is very helpful.

Xer Xian There are many reasons. I have always been interested in Oled and now Oled seems to be a real alternative to the LCD Display. So an upgrading has become an option. I also wanted a bigger TV For a long time. My Panasonic TX-39ASF657 is too small for me.

I could wait as the TV is still functional and just buy the OSSC now, but I am not sure how good it will work with my Panasonic. My initial plan was to buy the OSSC together with a TV that is known to work well with the device. I want to use my future OSSC in the best way possible.

The only problem with waiting in the tech world is, that it is not worth it IMHO.

There will always be new things on the Horizon. if I start waiting now, I could basically wait forever.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:31 am 



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Xyga wrote:
Well for retro hardware it's more the basic specs and performance that matter anyway (response, lag, scaling etc)

Neither HDR nor variable refresh rate will help with the OSSC or FM, and blur reduction features on TVs are either flaky for that use or very laggy.

What you want for retro is basically a huge monitor.



I think it is hard to get a TV suitable for every need. For my modern Gaming Consoles Ps4 and Xbox one S the new features that Xer Xian mentioned could be interesting but for the retro gaming consoles, they are not so important.

For retro gaming low input lag and the best possible compatibility with the OSSC is more important.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:40 am 


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Indeed, in short for you (and most people located in Europe with similar needs) the LG OLEDs come on top and the Sony 900 second.
In price/performance ratio the OLEDs have significantly better value.

If you're ever curious about the upcoming features mentioned by Xer Xian, I think you will have to wait until Q3 or Q4 after most of the interesting models will have been properly tested and reviewed.

There's not much else to add I think...
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:58 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
And also there's the TCL sets, but those have to be imported in Europe so I don't think you'll consider them.


TCL has gotten distribution in Sweden now, so I'd check with his local resellers, they might exist in Austria now too.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:11 pm 



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I checked it just now TLC TV are also available. Never heard about that brand though, but they offer quite cheap and the reviews are not that bad. TLC could be indeed a good brand for Budget TV.

@Xyga Yes i also think that there not more to ad. So it is up to me now to make a decision. I think I will either try to get the LG Oled B7 or just get the OSSC now and then wait till he end of the year, when the new models are already available and have been extensively tested.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:26 pm 


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I had written a bit about TCL and unfortunately it seems the models we have here in Europe are different-enough to say they're not the same TVs as those popular with American gamers including OSSC users.
And the pricing's not as good either.

EDIT; actually it's a bit of a mystery, it seems there are two different 'series' and not all available from the same distribution networks.
While I've seen those with a bottom 'sound bar' available and reviewed (and not nice with apparently minimum 25ms lag), those without a sound bar and that look more like the US models although bearing different product numbers are mostly ignored.
I remember reading somewhere on Rtings that the models sold in Europe were indeed different, but I'm not sure about those more discreet soundbar-less ones, hopefully someone with more information will notice this thread.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:31 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
I had written a bit about TCL and unfortunately it seems the models we have here in Europe are different-enough to say they're not the same TVs as those popular with American gamers including OSSC users.


Yeah, that definitely looks to be the case.

I compared the two US versions reported at VGP (55P605 and 55S405) vs two models available in Sweden (U55P6046 and U55S6906, which both go for a bit less than 600€).
https://www.displayspecifications.com/e ... /dfc046cd6

The european U55P6046 is reported at 26 ms input lag (no info for the other one). 26 ms is acceptable in my opinion, but there's a lot of other unknowns here. The P6046 has HDR and some kind of local dimming ("micro dimming"), but the S6906 is not even HDR.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:02 pm 


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Several shops where I am also list the U55P6006 and U55P6016 both at +/- 500€
(only one shop for the '16' actually)

U55P6006 -> 4K HDR 340 cd/m² (lol)
U55P6016 -> 4K HDR 280 cd/m² (lololol)

Also available in 43", 49" and 65"

That's all I know for now. No reviews AFAIK.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:09 pm 


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Bahn Yuki recommended a good 55 TCL panel that was low cost and feature rich.

I don’t remember which model but it’s in his signature
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:13 pm 


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Hoagtech wrote:
Bahn Yuki recommended a good 55 TCL panel that was low cost and feature rich.

I don’t remember which model but it’s in his signature

US-only model again I'm afraid.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:41 pm 


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I think this forum should have a sticky with a list. This is such an important topic for retro/shmups/fighting games.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:46 pm 



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I have googled a bit and it really seems that the TLC in the States are different than those we can get here in Europe.

The TCL P607 has a good reputation among gamers in the US but it is not available here in Europe as TLC confirms at Twitter


https://twitter.com/tcl_europe/status/8 ... 65?lang=de

that is a pity because this TLC really seems interesting. It seems that TLC is focusing more an the US Market. They release TVS in Europe too of course but they are not as good as the US Versions.

So TLC is not an option for me yet. I either stick the LG Oleds or wait a bit and just order the OSSC now.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:54 pm 


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Lol, I can almost picture the absurd survey reports that led to that kind of product strategy. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:06 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Lol, I can almost picture the absurd survey reports that led to that kind of product strategy. :lol:


Sometimes the EU and US get some odd "exclusives". I don't know the thought process behind it, most of the time.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:05 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
U55P6006 -> 4K HDR 340 cd/m² (lol)
U55P6016 -> 4K HDR 280 cd/m² (lololol)


Yeah, it’s ridiculous considering the US model is 750, more than twice the brightness, and superior contrast.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:01 am 



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So Rtings has posted their review of the new Sony X900F. 1080p lag has unfortunately gone up to 40.9 ms from the X900E's 31.5 ms. The F also drops component inputs. Pretty disappointing in those respects, because it otherwise looks good.

Personally I've been in TV limbo these last few months. I got an X900E, but I found the local dimming operations were sometimes distractingly noticeable (especially on HDR content), and the OSSC/SNES incompatibility nagged at me. I then tried the LG C7, but was really let down by the vertical banding issue, and worst of all is that my set has already developed four dead pixels after only three months.

Now I'm thinking I'll stick with the X900E. I'd rather put up with its local dimming than the C7's vertical banding. I'm okay with using the XRGB-Mini for NES/SNES.

The only further change I might make is to move up to a 55" X900E from my original 50" for my main TV, while the E line is still available. I've been spoiled by the size of the 55" C7 and would hate to go smaller now. Hopefully that will end my new TV saga, and I can finally go back to enjoying movies and games.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:59 am 


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I think we had at least one or two users on the forum in Europe who went to the trouble of importing the American TCL models. supposedly it's the P series that is the best model. with the C-Series following it behind even though it should technically be a more expensive model but for the purposes of video games and overall picture quality the P series is best.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:15 am 


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* Best for those who can live with PWM :p

@copy: Banding happens with LCDs too, no brand name is immune to quality issues. Personally I'd still go for an OLED, just making sure I can return/exchange without hassle in case the unit has defects out of the box, even if I have to do it multiple times.

EDIT: is it me or did Rtings remove 1080p @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 from their lag test ? if so that's the stupidiest thing ever since it matters so much.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:54 am 


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isn't pwm flicker mostly a problem when a pwm monitor has its back light brightness at less then 100%?

also, is this more pronounced in europe because of the 50 hz Utility frequency standard?


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:40 am 


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Not all displays that use PWM for dimming disable it at 100% brightness, iirc most PWM TVs don't.
Anyway even for those that do 100% brightness is way too bright so it's not really a solution either.

When the frequency of PWM is relatively high it's not a big problem, and it's said that over 2000Hz cancels the issues.
But most of these TVs sport the worst possible 120Hz PWM, I've seen some do 240Hz or 480Hz but it's still a big downside for motion clarity and accuracy.

50Hz doesn't make any difference, PWM is not synced to the signal anyway. People also often mistakenly think it acts as blur reduction which is laughable, it's not remotely even close to actual BFI/strobing features.

Most Sonys don't use PWM, or when they do it's higher frequency than the competition.
And OLED don't use it at all afaik (well I think some smartphones oleds do actually)

Now okay, I know a lot of people can't make a difference between proper sample-and-hold and broken sample-and-hold, and might even prefer the latter even if its for the wrong reason, that's why the Vizio & TCL are still popular despite the issue.

More importantly in the general appreciation of a display's value a lot of things weigh, and in case compatibility with source signals matters a lot, the it's obvious that a display that works with all your devices is a better choice/value and will provide greater satisfaction.
For me though PWM is a deal breaker no matter how flexible a display would be for my hardware.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:55 am 


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thanks for clearing that up Xyga, in hardware forms I often see users saying that PWM enhances motion clarity, but you say it actually makes things much worse. I've also seen users say that it causes more eyestrain even though most people can't notice without some type of tool. monitors without PWM supposedly cause the least amount of eyestrain. that's a pretty big deal in an office environment, but also for people that want to game for more than 30 minutes at a time as well.

looking through my cell phone camera I don't see any of the rolling horizontal lines that would indicate PWM (regardless of brightness setting). so I think my PC is safe, but I'll have to check my television later (knowing Samsung it probably uses PWM :roll: )


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:52 am 


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Yeah I know the myth about PWM and it's sad, it happened also because an extremely popular website like Rtings makes confusing test reports with oddly arranged tests and semantics, they're misleading readers whether intentionally or not, but I've long suspected they deliberately arranged the way they present the motion tests to avoid nuking the ratings and customer appreciation of big name brands like Samsung.
They've recently updated that part but it still seems biased to me, only recently admiting the issues with PWM and looking at the score components they obviously have a problem with admitting the importance of it;
Code:
Motion score components:
    71% Motion Blur
    7% Image Flicker
    14% 24p Playback
    7% Motion Interpolation

In their place I would weigh motion blur (better call it response/ghosting) and PWM frequency equally.
And put things like 24p playback and interpolation or BFI in separate tests and ratings.
That would be more honest, but a lot of sets from Vizio, TCL, LG, Samsung would take a really hard hit there.
It's better to not look at the ratings anyway.

Noted also that the page detailing the previous version of the test hasn't been updated yet so the older and dodgier/misleading explanation remains.
Blurbusters, pcmonitors, tftcentral etc have better reference articles to understand what it's about, but some people will overlook reality because of owner bias.
And as I've mentioned a few times in the past, even in our age with LCDs having been around for about two decades a lot of people still haven't actually experienced a comparison to witness the issues with LED PWM mixed in the motion of sample-and-hold.

The broken motion is one thing, the eye strain/headaches though is real only for a minority of people afaik (how many isn't measurable). Of course the lower the frequency the more people sensitive to it will be revealed.
No difference between monitors and TVs in that area except most monitors don't use PWM anywmore and haven't been for years (they're labelled 'flicker-free' by most manufacturers), or if they do it's often only under 20% brightness.
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