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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:23 pm 



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Xyga wrote:
ASDR wrote:
I wish manufacturers would simply sell a higher grade of display with longer warranty and where any of these defects would simply be grounds for an exchange.

Ha ha, never. The base price would simpy be too high and put the sets off the consumer/mass market, which would be ill-percieved on the other end also "so you do sell lower grade products to us plebs after all!"

Maybe the day they've got a tech they know is nearly flawless, indestructible and affordable...wait, that would kill the market so...nah. Never.


I don't think this would be so outrageous, I mean both panel and monitor manufacturers likely already do this. If Sony buys OLED panels from LG for they for sure have a contract that specifies acceptable panel parameters and they might be tighter/looser than what LG considers acceptable for their own TVs. And LG probably has different panel quality criteria for their 10k$ flagship models than their 1.5k$ entry level TVs. Companies like Sony that sell professional displays likely also have very different acceptance criteria for those. Displays in critical military/medical equipment don't have dead pixels or yellow tinges. Every semiconductor manufacturer bins their products. I don't think it would be crazy to sell a premium class TV with zero pixel defects and extended warranty. I'd happily pay 2x.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:19 pm 


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Well you can already have that you're saying it yourself, but what Sony and Panasonic offer isn't necessarily flawless either. Even LG themselves with their 77" wallpaper model surely pay attention but shit happens. And yes the prices are already relatively outrageous, it's the price of a small car here.
The entry level are the 55" for which there's a tight competition in particular on the US market where eveything is cheaper with the obvious goal of marginalizing high-end LCDs on the middle-term, so the production must be more rushed and anxious for economies of scale yes.
And pro equipment is often way over 2x but not sold as consumer products or lacking some of the conveniences.

If you were looking at a real luxury category with 100% guarantees on the quality they'd have to be sold through a dedicated over-brand and probably sold only in a few select shops in big cicties with exclusive/limited deivery and maintenance service.
The problem is when someone thinks luxury is that it has to be far-enough from the bulk, the prices would be more than 2x or they might not do it.
And in the case of OLEDs it'll be very hard to offer actually obviously better higher-end products than those already existing, as I say again it'll be mostly service fluff.
Check Titan Screens for instance, what they offer is mostly hot air expensive service, while actual performance and rationality of the displays hardly matters. I'm sure their products are spotlesss though, any part replaced asap at home by a technician or whatever. The prices must be through the roof, but it's the kind of silly things that define luxury.

TBH there's not much more issues with LG's OLED than with the average range of LCD's no matter the brand, I think you're fixated on bad examples. IMHO it's still much more risky to buy an IPS TV or monitor for which I suspect at least a third of the production worldwide has more or less obvious quality issues.
You want safer? Buy a VA. But deal with the limitations.
You know, it's the same even with pro and prosumer hardware, they're not exempt of defects and have to be replaced/exchanged sometimes, and even at that level the manufacturers have rules for limiting abuse.

I'd recommend to just study the type/category/series of whatever you think of buying and the manufacturer's and seller's policies for defects and returns.
Aim for models obviously higher-end in the manufacturer's catalogues, learn everything you can about those, look in advance for what can go wrong, find the best possible reseller, preferably with clear defects/returns policy and not too far away from your delivery place. It's all possible just not easy (in the past there were more specialized and entirely dedicated AV+HiFi stores in major urban centers, those were much better than today's online and mall or franchized stores options)
There's no real need for a special premium/luxury category if you do that.

In short with the current state of technology and offer, paying 2x, 3x or more for what would be mostly illusions of higher quality is not worth it.
Plus tech products are obsolated so fast today and displays so hard to resell that no 'big purchase that will do for the next decade' really makes sense.

Now (again) if someone would offer significantly better technology unquestionably topping all other, it might be worth the cash yes...
EDIT: A completely burn-in-proof OLED variant would justify significantly higher prices. Or models equipped with cutting-edge blur-reduction and image processing. Things like that.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:04 pm 



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I think you're maybe thinking along very different axis of premium / better than me. I don't want something significantly better, I want less randomness. My main issue is stuff like dead pixels. I spend thousands on a TV, one day after the 30 day return window I now have two bright specs in the center of the screen. That's not under warranty, my four figure TV investment is now something I can't stand using and needs to be replaced (with potentially the same end result...). All I want is a warranty that considers dead/stuck pixels as what they are - a failure of the display that requires replacement. Add some tighter tolerances for uniformity etc. and I'm happy. I don't want anything drastically better than what LG is selling. I'd probably be super happy with 3 our of every 10 LG TVs manufactured. I just don't want to play the lottery with such an expensive purchase. Let me pay 2x and give me something known-good instead of something ranging great-to-broken.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:41 pm 


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Although maybe drowned in the lenght of my posts I assure you I understand what you mean, but again that's a considerable challenge for them because they can't trust their products this much. A premium warranty would cost a lot to compensate the trouble it would mean to replace a potentially too high number of units.
And manufacturing with a better quality (to make that plan viable) would also probably cost too much and shoot the prices so high it would provoke the perception anomaly I've invoked.
Even just sorting units + warranty would have a negative effect (unless maybe sold under unmistakably separate brand and service)
Which is why I'm saying only effectively better tech products would justify much higher cost and better warranty.

What you're thinking existed decades ago but faded over time and is only still found in actual luxury services because the manufacturers today aren't equipped (production, budget, personel) for that kind of commerce anymore. BUT the (few) authorized resellers of their (also few) high-end products might be able to satisfy the level of aftersales/warranty you mention.
It's up to you - I'm not joking - to find the right product and right reseller who will offer on contract what you seek. Manufacturers will only respond in person, for individual cases, to key/respected specialized resellers that are often working directly with them or via a 'first circle' warehouse.

EDIT: maybe later in the future with the economies of scale, larger and improved factories (i'm thinking of oled in particular here, lcd won't really improve anymore), they will be able to provide better response against quality issues, but understand that we're in the era of saving cost and battling competition at high speeds BEFORE EVERYTHING. What are a handful of people with more cash to spend compared to millions with less?
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:11 pm 



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I guess what confused me is that other semiconductor manufacturers can successfully bin their products. Intel takes the same die and turns it into a dozen products, binned by speed, TDP, functional cores etc. And of course there are professional / server type parts with tighter tolerances and longer warranties. LG could take their most on-spec & defect free panels and sell them at a premium under a different brand / model. Add some extra warranty, charge for that as well.

I wouldn't want to buy a car with a top speed of 150-250km/h or a CPU with 6-10 cores. It's OK if my box of corn flakes is light 50g, but it's not OK if my TV is missing pixels or my house has 20m^2 less. I just don't want to have that kind of variability on purchases >1000.

What you're saying about finding a reseller that offers this is interesting. It makes sense, if the manufacturer isn't interested in this type of product / business, maybe a 3rd party with a direct relationship and their own grading & repair facilities could do it. My guess is they would only do this for TVs already way out of my price range, though. I want a defect-free 1500-3500EUR TV, not a 10k TV with a 20k service contract :/


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:43 pm 


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Your only option I guess is to buy several displays and return within time all but the one you think is best. Then keep your fingers crossed that shit won't happen again.

Stores that offer what today would be considerd outstanding warranty and service are certainly few, and yes probably not for what's basically plebeian shit in their trade.
(careful of 'extended warranty' shit that actually doesn't cover anything despite the premium)

Where I live in the nearest fairly-sized city there used to be one in particular providing incredible service, for instance they were direct with Sony and would allow me to try practically any of their products (panasonic too), and the repair service was included for at least three years if I remember correctly, even longer for pro level stuff.
But that was around the year 2000, it close down and I haven't found any shop that comes even close anywhere else near for now almost 20 years.

The world is vast but don't get your hopes up too much, when you seek the right stuff it will most often take a few tries if several, and you have to accept that part of your budget will be spent on bad/disappointing products.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:57 pm 



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The best you can probably hope for is a place like Amazon with a pretty generous return policy. Extended warranty is always a scam. It's most often provided by some external agency and the list of shit they don't cover is endless.

I'm secretly hoping for 8k to catch on real soon so at least the dead pixel issue is becoming less serious :D


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:10 am 



Joined: 28 Mar 2018
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I think it is not necessary to make a new thread so I think here. I am also looking for a decent 4k TV for Retro gaming and movies. My place for the TV set is limited though. Can somebody recommend a good .43 to .46 Inch TV available at the german/european market suited well for gaming?

Would be pleased Hearing some tipps.

Thanks in advance :)


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:55 pm 


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https://displaylag.com/display-database/

Most gaming/PC monitors are far lower lag, but lack features for general-purpose use (and aren't as large). If the day ever came that my last CRT degraded beyond use, however, I'd consider a separate gaming display for it.

FWIW Nvidia are talking about getting in on the market:

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/pr ... -displays/

AFAIK for something to be labelled a "television" it must come with a tuner, and generally manufacturers are less concerned with lag then they are adding unnecessary features like subframe interpolation and dynamic backlight adjustment (I'm not actually sure who wants these features - either people notice them and hate them, or don't notice and wouldn't miss them). So Nvidia are aiming to fill the gap by making gaming monitors that are larger format than what PC manufacturers are offering, but without all the stuff that just adds unnecessary lag and filtering that annoys gamers who want larger format screens. Could be an interesting few years ahead.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:19 pm 


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elvis wrote:
https://displaylag.com/display-database/

That website isn't a good reference for lag tests, like several other websites they just average the three readings from the Leo Bodnar tester which doesn't make much sense.

nVidia's BFGD 'concept' is a welcome entry but apparently only offering IPS panels (logical but some would appreciate the VA alternative) and as expected with the brand they're aiming at quite the premium prices, stuffing too much of their proprietary stuff in.
I only hope it'll become a trend and the usual manufacturers will soon begin to offer more generic/cheaper alternatives, also in slightly smaller sizes of course.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:45 am 


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So, supposedly the Samsung NU8000 supports low lag frame interpolation, BFI, and FreeSync...

...however in Rtings review I can't 100% make out what's really working or not and how, it's incomplete and confusing, and they couldn't make FreeSync work anyway (don't blame them for that part because it's so much like FreeSync to claim on paper that it's there yet not working ever, idk why there hasn't been a mass lawsuit against AMD and partners yet)

There's a new article on blurbusters that confuses me as well, saying it supports HDMI 2 VRR ??

Half-assed PR, unclear specs, unclear about features and compatibility, incomplete messy reviews.
Yay. Welcome to the 'customers/users? readers? we dont really know and dont give a fuck lol' world of displays (and in particular TVs)

As much as I criticize nVidia's premium-everything pricing policy, at least with them I know I'm not buying vaporware, their BFGD line for now seems like the only serious 'big gaming display' option.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:58 am 



Joined: 28 Mar 2018
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Sorry for diging out the old thread. Now it is my turn to look my a new tv set, as my old one broke yesterday. Is this advice still the best. Or would it be worth considering the 2018 models now?


Xyga wrote:
Indeed, in short for you (and most people located in Europe with similar needs) the LG OLEDs come on top and the Sony 900 second.
In price/performance ratio the OLEDs have significantly better value.

If you're ever curious about the upcoming features mentioned by Xer Xian, I think you will have to wait until Q3 or Q4 after most of the interesting models will have been properly tested and reviewed.

There's not much else to add I think...


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:26 am 


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By the reviews available so far this year, the most interesting LCD sets are the Samsung (Q6, Q7, Q8, Q9) you can check the reviews on Rtings to see each line's specifics, they inform about the European model numbers at the bottom of the reviews. Mind the slight specs variations with different size of some.
None are PWM-free but the Q8 and Q9 are a step above average with a higher frequency.

Quite good sets overall and featuring FreeSync, but they're very expensive if you compare to LG's OLEDs.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:03 am 



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Xyga wrote:
By the reviews available so far this year, the most interesting LCD sets are the Samsung (Q6, Q7, Q8, Q9) you can check the reviews on Rtings to see each line's specifics, they inform about the European model numbers at the bottom of the reviews. Mind the slight specs variations with different size of some.
None are PWM-free but the Q8 and Q9 are a step above average with a higher frequency.

Quite good sets overall and featuring FreeSync, but they're very expensive if you compare to LG's OLEDs.


ok thanks a lot for the advice. I will checkt Rtings as soon as I can to get all the Information I need to know about the Samsung Q line. They look interesting for sure. But my favourites are still the LG Oled Line.

I just was not sure if it would be a good idea to wait for 2018 oled line, or if it would no Problem to get the 2017 models...


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:41 am 



Joined: 07 Feb 2018
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It is good to see that my old thread is still alive. :mrgreen: Due to the purchase of the Framemeister I decided to postpone my tv purchase till later in the year.

But now I decided to wait till next year. I want to wait for a TV with HDMI 2.1 and it seems that TV models of the 2018 won't have it. So decided to wait.

@Xer Xian was right after all. he recommended me to wait for the new Standards earlier in the thread.

iceman_0 What LG Oled you find especially interesting? As far as I know the Oled B7 seems to quite popular.But I think the other LG oled should be nice as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:12 pm 



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@Ocelot My favourite Oled from LG would be the B7 indeed as it has some quite good reviews. The TCL TV sets are intersting as well but not sure if we can get the same great models as in the US. it seems that the european models are downgraded quite a lot.

But the most intersting stuff I could find so far are the samsung Qled TV. They are quite expensive though. I wonder if the samsung tv are worth the extra money compared to a 2017 oled you can get for lesser money...


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:26 pm 


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Despite the slightly lower basic LCD specs, this year's Samsung QLEDs are basically the alternative to nVidia's BFGD

If you're going to game PC/emulators; variable refresh support is a massive leap forward.

Of course OLED panels still beat the crap out any LCD in terms of raw response and colors/contrast performance, so both types improve the experience but differently.

Now it's clear isn't it?
OLED + variable refresh would be the best combo without question.
Just WTF are LG waiting for?
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:53 am 



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Xyga wrote:
Despite the slightly lower basic LCD specs, this year's Samsung QLEDs are basically the alternative to nVidia's BFGD

If you're going to game PC/emulators; variable refresh support is a massive leap forward.

Of course OLED panels still beat the crap out any LCD in terms of raw response and colors/contrast performance, so both types improve the experience but differently.

Now it's clear isn't it?
OLED + variable refresh would be the best combo without question.
Just WTF are LG waiting for?



I more a console gamer than a pc gamer but I still think the variable refresh support can come in handy as a Ps4 und Xbox One S user as well. Really hope the 2019 lg oleds will have These features.

after researching a lot about Oled I became a big Oled fan, and it is rather certain that my next tv will be a Oled. But on other Hand the Oled from Samsung Looks promising too and maybe the 2019 models will be even better.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:35 am 


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Variable refresh rate is good for everything. I just hope it will become generalized to every category of flat panel displays, and without too many proprietary tech and licencing annoyances.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:30 am 



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Do you guys now if there are many practical difference for gaming use with the LG Oled B7, C7 or E7? Any Oled users here in the Forum?

I have done plenty of Research and I am certain now what I want to get. I will either get one the LG OLED (B7,C7 or E7) or the Samsung QE55Q8CAMTXZG .

But before I make my final decission, i want to do a bit more Research about the OLEDS


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:19 am 


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iceman_0 wrote:
Samsung QE55Q8CAMTXZG

Isn't that last year's Q8 with curved screen? quite different from this year's line...

EDIT: ok so apparently no, but it seems that the Q8 we get in Europe is curved, unlike the US model, and I don't know if it performs the same (which I doubt as curved screens often spec and perform slightly differently compared to their full flat bros)

More annoyingly I visited Samsung's website and there is no mention of FreeSync compatibility at all, on any model.
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:13 am 



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Xyga wrote:
iceman_0 wrote:
Samsung QE55Q8CAMTXZG

Isn't that last year's Q8 with curved screen? quite different from this year's line...

EDIT: ok so apparently no, but it seems that the Q8 we get in Europe is curved, unlike the US model, and I don't know if it performs the same (which I doubt as curved screens often spec and perform slightly differently compared to their full flat bros)

More annoyingly I visited Samsung's website and there is no mention of FreeSync compatibility at all, on any model.


Yeah it is really a pity that the Euro models are not the same as the US models with different technical specs .

I really would prefer to wait for a TV with FreeSync but now I have no choice as my old TV broke. So I have to take one of the current models.

I think we won't see TV with Free Sync in 2018 right ? Only the 2019 models could have it??

if that is so then waiting not really option I am afraid.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Good TV for playing Retro Consoles
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:52 am 


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I'm pretty confused with the model numbers and availability of the Samsung 2018 models, right now I am unsure of what we're seeing in Europe and it is very possible that no mention of FreeSync in the specs is just Samsung and AMD being incompetent about products pages and specs/features description - which is a recurrent phenomenon - outside of the US market websites.
I'd advise caution and some more research/patience before making your choice.
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