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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:00 pm 


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RetroBVM wrote:
Do the GC and Wii only output YCbCr nativity and then the WiiDual and GCDual convert it to RGB and other video signals?


YCbCr native, but the WiiDual can convert that to analog YUV (YPbPr), RGB (RGBS, RGsB, RGBHV) and dYUV.


Last edited by Lawfer on Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:10 pm 


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HDMI output is RGB. dYUV is the same as YUV, but bypassing blanking regeneration and the on-screen display.


Last edited by Extrems on Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:12 pm 



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RGBHV output is not implemented yet, is it? At least I didn't see it as an option in the OSD settings.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:17 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
RGBHV output is not implemented yet, is it? At least I didn't see it as an option in the OSD settings.


I don't see it in the OSD either, but it's mentioned on the WiiDual specs, so not sure.


fernan1234 wrote:
HDMI output is RGB


Oh really? Okay tx, edited my post.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:00 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
Oh really? Okay tx, edited my post.

You... you realize this was brought up again very recently? In the last page?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:59 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
RGBHV output is not implemented yet, is it? At least I didn't see it as an option in the OSD settings.


It is available. You have a few options to access the sync signals: Test points or you can route the signals to the Data lines (Must bridge jumpers 4 & 5) on the av connector. If you bridge jumpers 4 & 5 you need to remove components on the other side of the board. Even non Japanese models have these components populated for some reason.

Make sure to set the analog output to RGB.


Spoiler: show
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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:10 pm 



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Thanks for that information.

On a separate note, this may have been reported already, but currently the WiiDual's line-doubled 480p analog output is displayed with tearing or flagging at the top of the picture on certain monitors (in my case, a D-series BVM). I imagine that this is due to a similar problem with a lack of serration pulses in the 480p output of Dreamcasts. Unlike that case, however, even using an Extron RGB interface's SERR and/or Comp Sync switches did not resolve the problem, at least in my setup. Some PVMs on the other hand do not seem to have this issue with this particular output.

Of course, this problem does not occur when using the Wii's native 480p analog output, but only with the WiiDual's line-doubling of 240p or 480i (and its PAL equivalents). I have a workaround by using the digital output and feeding it back into the monitor with a DAC.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:31 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Thanks for that information.

On a separate note, this may have been reported already, but currently the WiiDual's line-doubled 480p analog output is displayed with tearing or flagging at the top of the picture on certain monitors (in my case, a D-series BVM). I imagine that this is due to a similar problem with a lack of serration pulses in the 480p output of Dreamcasts. Unlike that case, however, even using an Extron RGB interface's SERR and/or Comp Sync switches did not resolve the problem, at least in my setup. Some PVMs on the other hand do not seem to have this issue with this particular output.

Of course, this problem does not occur when using the Wii's native 480p analog output, but only with the WiiDual's line-doubling of 240p or 480i (and its PAL equivalents). I have a workaround by using the digital output and feeding it back into the monitor with a DAC.


Did you try a Sync Strike-type device? (in combination with an extron rgb or alone) Also, I've had some sources work with one extron rgb and not with another on my PVM.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:43 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Thanks for that information.

On a separate note, this may have been reported already, but currently the WiiDual's line-doubled 480p analog output is displayed with tearing or flagging at the top of the picture on certain monitors (in my case, a D-series BVM). I imagine that this is due to a similar problem with a lack of serration pulses in the 480p output of Dreamcasts. Unlike that case, however, even using an Extron RGB interface's SERR and/or Comp Sync switches did not resolve the problem, at least in my setup. Some PVMs on the other hand do not seem to have this issue with this particular output.

Of course, this problem does not occur when using the Wii's native 480p analog output, but only with the WiiDual's line-doubling of 240p or 480i (and its PAL equivalents). I have a workaround by using the digital output and feeding it back into the monitor with a DAC.



I just looked at the Line Doubler, and it does just an XOR. So yes those serration pulses will be missing on line doubled material.

https://github.com/ikorb/gcvideo/blob/3 ... r.vhd#L253


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:08 pm 



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If you don't mind me asking, what's the reasoning behind HDMI outputting digital RGB instead of YCbCr?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:18 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, what's the reasoning behind HDMI outputting digital RGB instead of YCbCr?

Because DVI does not support anything except RGB.
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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:37 pm 


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Unseen wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, what's the reasoning behind HDMI outputting digital RGB instead of YCbCr?

Because DVI does not support anything except RGB.


What's the range of the digital RGB? 0-255 or 16-235 (like the Wii U)?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:42 pm 


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It's full range by default, with limited range as an option.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:42 pm 



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Just got my WiiDual and DCHDMI in! Really impressed with both, although the features on the DCHDMI are extremely cool. Wireless firmware updates? HQ2X scaling? 960/1080p output? Simply awesome.

Might just have to load up Crazy Taxi on both to compare the two at 480p. I have a feeling that the Wii/GC will be softer but I’m hoping I can get the flicker filter disabled in USBLoaderGX.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:00 pm 


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Unless you're the Game Boy Player Start-up Disc, there's no deflickering filter for interlaced video in 480p.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:04 pm 


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Extrems, I just want to say, thank you so much for your alternate gameboy player start-up software. It is very good.

Drunk_Caterpillar wrote:
Just got my WiiDual and DCHDMI in! Really impressed with both, although the features on the DCHDMI are extremely cool. Wireless firmware updates? HQ2X scaling? 960/1080p output? Simply awesome.

Might just have to load up Crazy Taxi on both to compare the two at 480p. I have a feeling that the Wii/GC will be softer but I’m hoping I can get the flicker filter disabled in USBLoaderGX.


A buddy of mine just did the DCHDMI. I'm really looking forward to checking it out. I've always been generally fine with VGA and using CRTs, but it really looks like it will be amazing.
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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:41 pm 



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Extrems wrote:
Unless you're the Game Boy Player Start-up Disc, there's no deflickering filter for interlaced video in 480p.


As in, de-flicker is disabled for 480i games forced to display 480p?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:43 pm 


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For forced 480p, it depends on the quality of the loader's patches.

Nintendont doesn't disable deflickering in many cases. Some cases escape Swiss still (Star Wars Rogue Squadron III: Rebel Strike).

I didn't even realize Crazy Taxi doesn't have native 480p. I'm too used to forcing.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:14 pm 



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What is killing me right now is that there are a handful of Wii games that only support 480i, and forcing them to display 480p makes them MUCH sharper than the rest of the library. As an example, the Resident Evil 0 Wii port doesn't support 480p out of the box, but forcing it into that mode makes it look way more detailed than the 480p capable Resident Evil 1 Wii port. I'm gonna see if Cyan actually already has a fix for this in USBLoaderGX because I haven't been able to find a solution yet and it's frustrating to know how much sharper my other favourites could look.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:33 pm 



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So even GameCube and Wii games that can render natively in 480p are sharper if forced to run 480p via Swiss/Nintendon't?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:38 pm 


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That's not normally the case for GameCube games. I haven't played a single Wii game in 480p since getting 480p, which was prompted by the introduction of 576p in homebrew.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:45 pm 



Joined: 23 Dec 2016
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Hopefully I'm not spamming this thread, but I just wanted to share this pic so I can see if there's a solution to this. IMO, the difference is pretty big. FYI, there's an exposure difference that is totally due to my iPad's camera (iPhone is in the shop).

Image


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:59 pm 


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I know some of the Resident Evil games on GameCube had brightness adjustment. Does it have that?

It's based on scaling the vertical filter coefficients. Swiss currently break said adjustment.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:15 pm 



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Extrems wrote:
I know some of the Resident Evil games on GameCube had brightness adjustment. Does it have that?

It's based on scaling the vertical filter coefficients. Swiss currently break said adjustment.


Nah, the brightness is just because my camera exposed for it differently. The big thing to look for in these pics is the blur in and around the battery indicator. You can see in the RE1 shot that it is smudged so much there's barely any separation to the elements in that icon. The rest of the image during gameplay is also affected, but this is the best example of it. Might not seem like much, but the end result is that most Wii games feel so much softer than they should, in my opinion. Forcing 480p on a 480i only game seems to work around this though--now I just want to figure out how to get my 480p capable games to bypass the same filtering.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:41 pm 


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I'm not asking about brightness difference in the pictures, I'm asking about a feature in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:09 pm 


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Looking at the GameCube version, I'm going to guess yes.

Image

The implementation of this feature is to blame. They didn't special case 480p.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:16 pm 


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citrus3000psi wrote:
I just looked at the Line Doubler, and it does just an XOR. So yes those serration pulses will be missing on line doubled material.

As far as I know, serration and equalization pulses should only be present for interlaced material. The Cube does not generate them on its CSync signal in 480p mode and although I have not found a signal spec for 480p yet, there are no serration pulses mentioned in SMPTE 296M (720p) and SMPTE 274M (1080i/p) specifies them only for interlaced material. Since the linedoubler output is always progressive, XOR seems to be the correct choice here.
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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:23 pm 


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https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bt/R-REC-BT.1358-1-200709-W!!PDF-E.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:27 pm 


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Extrems wrote:

Thanks! No serration/equalization pulses in there either, so the linedoubler can stay as it is.

(nice, someone took the obvious bait ;) )
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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:53 pm 



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Unseen wrote:
Extrems wrote:

Thanks! No serration/equalization pulses in there either, so the linedoubler can stay as it is.

(nice, someone took the obvious bait ;) )


Is there any disadvantage to making the necessary changes for compatibility in monitors that have issues with the way it is now?


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