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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:25 am 


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Location: UK
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VGP. although I suppose you would've been more local? For some reason I thought you were also in the UK. After Seeing your Twitter page, I realize your US.


I remember packaging one up yesterday, probably yours. As chance would have it the sorting office was closed yesterday due to a bank holiday.

I can hold/cancel yours until it's firmware updated if you want?
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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:09 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 585
Extrems wrote:
You can read the GBI manual for a taste of remaining issues condensed in one-ish place.


Got a link to the manual?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:11 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1306
Are there any plans to do this for the Wii U?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:06 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
Are there any plans to do this for the Wii U?


But the Wii U already got good video out? If you are talking about the limited range RGB thing, this is an issue with the Nintendo official firmware which locks out Full Range RGB, BECAUSE...!!! I have no idea, ask Nintendo. The only way to do something about this software locked Full Range RGB I think would be for someone to hack the Wii U with a custom firmware/custom registry which would enable the Wii U output Full Range RGB, as a matter of fact the exact same thing was done with the PS Vita (the PS Vita is Limited Range RGB and unlike the PS TV there are no options in the settings to enable Full Range RGB), so someone (I think it was SmokeMonster) hacked/tweeked the registry of the PS Vita which enabled Full Range RGB on it, I actually found out about this about a year ago when citrus retweeted the info:

Spoiler: show
Image


https://github.com/some1psv/RegistryEditor/releases


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:16 pm 


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BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
VGP. although I suppose you would've been more local? For some reason I thought you were also in the UK. After Seeing your Twitter page, I realize your US.


I remember packaging one up yesterday, probably yours. As chance would have it the sorting office was closed yesterday due to a bank holiday.

I can hold/cancel yours until it's firmware updated if you want?


I think mine is already shipped?

CB010238435IE


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:11 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 514
Lawfer wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
Are there any plans to do this for the Wii U?


But the Wii U already got good video out? If you are talking about the limited range RGB thing, this is an issue with the Nintendo official firmware which locks out Full Range RGB, BECAUSE...!!! I have no idea, ask Nintendo. The only way to do something about this software locked Full Range RGB I think would be for someone to hack the Wii U with a custom firmware/custom registry which would enable the Wii U output Full Range RGB, as a matter of fact the exact same thing was done with the PS Vita (the PS Vita is Limited Range RGB and unlike the PS TV there are no options in the settings to enable Full Range RGB), so someone (I think it was SmokeMonster) hacked/tweeked the registry of the PS Vita which enabled Full Range RGB on it, I actually found out about this about a year ago when citrus retweeted the info:

Spoiler: show
Image


https://github.com/some1psv/RegistryEditor/releases


If your TV is set to limited range anyway, though, then it's going to make zero visible difference. The only reason I can see the Vita one making a difference is if the output doesn't match the screen, so it might subjectively look better (or worse) but actually be incorrect/mismatched. It could also be that the display was supposed to get betting full range but was only getting limited, I don't know. The point is, for Wii U, there's really no reason to bother.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:06 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1306
Lawfer wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
Are there any plans to do this for the Wii U?


But the Wii U already got good video out? If you are talking about the limited range RGB thing, this is an issue with the Nintendo official firmware which locks out Full Range RGB, BECAUSE...!!! I have no idea, ask Nintendo. The only way to do something about this software locked Full Range RGB I think would be for someone to hack the Wii U with a custom firmware/custom registry which would enable the Wii U output Full Range RGB, as a matter of fact the exact same thing was done with the PS Vita (the PS Vita is Limited Range RGB and unlike the PS TV there are no options in the settings to enable Full Range RGB), so someone (I think it was SmokeMonster) hacked/tweeked the registry of the PS Vita which enabled Full Range RGB on it, I actually found out about this about a year ago when citrus retweeted the info:

Spoiler: show
Image


https://github.com/some1psv/RegistryEditor/releases

WiiUDual would be for improving the analog YPbPr output, allowing RGBS output and allowing HDMI output to be Full Range RGB (0-255), along with some other improvements.

thebigcheese wrote:
If your TV is set to limited range anyway, though, then it's going to make zero visible difference. The only reason I can see the Vita one making a difference is if the output doesn't match the screen, so it might subjectively look better (or worse) but actually be incorrect/mismatched. It could also be that the display was supposed to get betting full range but was only getting limited, I don't know. The point is, for Wii U, there's really no reason to bother.

Yeah, but allowing Full Range RGB (0-255) allows for more compatibility with displays. Limited Range RGB (16-235) is only used on TVs, while Full Range RGB (0-255) is used on computer monitors. Also, for the rare monitors which can display both Limited Range RGB (16-235) AND Full Range RGB (0-255), it would theoritically look better on the latter once properly calibrated.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:40 pm 



Joined: 23 Dec 2016
Posts: 18
fernan1234 wrote:
Extrems wrote:
You can read the GBI manual for a taste of remaining issues condensed in one-ish place.


Got a link to the manual?


I looked around and downloaded some GBI releases and couldn't find it either. Little help?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:20 pm 


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Joined: 30 Jan 2016
Posts: 369
https://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=Game_Boy_Interface
https://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=Game_Boy_Interface/Standard_Edition
https://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=Game_Boy_Interface/Speedrunning_Edition
https://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=Game_Boy_Interface/High-Fidelity_Edition

What the hell am I doing wrong that people can't find it?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:52 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 585
Extrems wrote:


I found these wikis but I wasn't sure these were what you meant because at least with my pleb eyes I can't see what you mean as "a taste of remaining issues" with GCVideo/WiiDual's custom GCVideo. The only references to GCVideo I see are in regard to the appropriate settings when using GBI with it.

Don't forget we're not all as knowledgeable as you my friend :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 am 


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What I can think of off the top of my head:
  • Blanking regeneration is busted (mis-centered, cut-off images)
    This is sidestepped in citrus3000psi's firmware for YPbPr only.
  • No lossless YCbCr 4:2:2 over HDMI
  • No ZOH option
    This is addressed in citrus3000psi's new firmware.
  • Incompatibility with HDMI sinks only supporting YCbCr
  • Incompatibility with HDMI sinks expecting exactly 48kHz audio
    This likely can't be addressed with the current hardware platform.
    This is brought upon by the GameCube (Mode) itself.
  • Other issues I'm not sure about


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:14 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 585
Extrems wrote:
What I can think of off the top of my head:
  • Blanking regeneration is busted (mis-centered, cut-off images)
    This is sidestepped in citrus3000psi's firmware for YPbPr only.
  • No lossless YCbCr 4:2:2 over HDMI
  • No ZOH option
    This is addressed in citrus3000psi's new firmware.
  • Incompatibility with HDMI sinks only supporting YCbCr
  • Incompatibility with HDMI sinks expecting exactly 48kHz audio
    This likely can't be addressed with the current hardware platform.
    This is brought upon by the GameCube (Mode) itself.
  • Other issues I'm not sure about



This is very informative. Thanks a lot.

Since I primarily use analog I guess citrus3000psi's new firmware is good enough. I'll look into getting it flashed soon. I prefer RGBS (or RGsB) over YPbPr though so that first issue listed is a bit of a concern, though I haven't noticed it yet.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:21 am 


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Extrems wrote:
[*]Incompatibility with HDMI sinks only supporting YCbCr

is that even a thing?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:43 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
I prefer RGBS (or RGsB) over YPbPr though so that first issue listed is a bit of a concern,


Same.


fernan1234 wrote:
though I haven't noticed it yet.


Same.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:51 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 139
Extrems wrote:
What I can think of off the top of my head:
[*]No lossless YCbCr 4:2:2 over HDMI


What implications does this have?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:03 am 


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Posts: 497
Extrems wrote:
No lossless YCbCr 4:2:2 over HDMI

That's not a bug, that's a design decision.

Quote:
Incompatibility with HDMI sinks only supporting YCbCr

As far as I know such sinks are not supposed to exist. It would need to mark itself as such in the EDID data, but the basic display data entry for a digital display can only specify YCbCr 422/444 capability in addition to RGB, not as an alternative to RGB.

Quote:
Incompatibility with HDMI sinks expecting exactly 48kHz audio
This likely can't be addressed with the current hardware platform.
This is brought upon by the GameCube (Mode) itself.

Actually it can be fixed, but the method is quite drastic and can introduce noticable audio artifacts.

Here is an old test clip where I simulated that method for a bit of A/B testing: https://youtu.be/UIz8HAZmy7U


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:38 pm 


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Unseen wrote:
That's not a bug, that's a design decision.

Then it should be made very clear the digital isn't lossless.
Unseen wrote:
As far as I know such sinks are not supposed to exist. It would need to mark itself as such in the EDID data, but the basic display data entry for a digital display can only specify YCbCr 422/444 capability in addition to RGB, not as an alternative to RGB.

This is going off user reports, I'm not sure what the exact mechanism is.
Unseen wrote:
Actually it can be fixed, but the method is quite drastic and can introduce noticable audio artifacts.

Obviously I meant a high-quality solution, although I wonder what the overlap between those and those that support 96kHz+ is.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:59 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
Unseen wrote:
That's not a bug, that's a design decision.

Then it should be made very clear the digital isn't lossless.

Fortunately the word "lossless" does not appear in the manual.

Quote:
This is going off user reports, I'm not sure what the exact mechanism is.

Apparent swap of Cb and Cr channels, usually diagnosed as "red and blue are swapped"? Completely different mechanism. If you feed RGB into something that expects YCbCr you usually get a picture that is mostly green or purple.

Quote:
Obviously I meant a high-quality solution, although I wonder what the overlap between those and those that support 96kHz+ is.

You appear to be fond of making unstated assumptions and I get the impression that you become condescending when other people do not acknowledge them or argue based on a different set of assumptions that conflict with yours. Your calls for YCbCr 422 output seem to be a case of that, from what I can tell you want the exact pixel values on the HDMI output that are in the Gamecube's frame buffer(*) for some purpose. Most people do not care about that, they just want a better quality picture than the GC's analog output, without spending lots of money for the original component cable. In this case, RGB is the must-have-feature (DVI requires it), "lossless" YCbCr 422 is the "almost nobody really needs it, unclear if it makes any quality difference, but it requires lots of extra resources" feature that just isn't worth the effort.

(and by the way: fixing the Cube's audio by resampling isn't lossless either ;) )

(*) An actual implementation would need to face another complication: The Cube outputs 8 bit YCbCr 422, the pixel format on the wire to the display is wider than that. Filling the additional bits with a constant means that at least one of the extreme levels cannot be reached anymore, filling them with a copy of the top bits of the input value means that the step size from one input value to the next varies over the whole range of values.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:43 pm 


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Unseen wrote:
Fortunately the word "lossless" does not appear in the manual.

Fair enough, but that doesn't stop people from having this misconception.
Unseen wrote:
Apparent swap of Cb and Cr channels, usually diagnosed as "red and blue are swapped"? Completely different mechanism. If you feed RGB into something that expects YCbCr you usually get a picture that is mostly green or purple.

There are GameCube software/hardware bugs that actually do that. This is a different issue with a different effect, and both have been reported.
Unseen wrote:
Your calls for YCbCr 422 output seem to be a case of that, from what I can tell you want the exact pixel values on the HDMI output that are in the Gamecube's frame buffer(*) for some purpose. Most people do not care about that, they just want a better quality picture than the GC's analog output, without spending lots of money for the original component cable. In this case, RGB is the must-have-feature (DVI requires it), "lossless" YCbCr 422 is the "almost nobody really needs it, unclear if it makes any quality difference, but it requires lots of extra resources" feature that just isn't worth the effort.

Dolphin developers are very interested. ;)
Unseen wrote:
(and by the way: fixing the Cube's audio by resampling isn't lossless either ;) )

There isn't just my use cases. This is a common issue people have, and they deserve an acceptable solution.
Unseen wrote:
(*) An actual implementation would need to face another complication: The Cube outputs 8 bit YCbCr 422, the pixel format on the wire to the display is wider than that. Filling the additional bits with a constant means that at least one of the extreme levels cannot be reached anymore, filling them with a copy of the top bits of the input value means that the step size from one input value to the next varies over the whole range of values.

The standards for limited range calls for bitshifting left, so I'm not sure what the issue is.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:23 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
Dolphin developers are very interested. ;)

Still a very niche audience and I wonder if a direct capture of the digital AV port data would be better for their purposes - GCVideo discards some of the information available there, for example the color burst position.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:28 pm 


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Updating a wiidual 1.1 with new firmware. Because I'm doing this before plugging it in, I should leave the 3.3 volt pin connected between the programmer and the wiidual, correct?
I'm double checking because the GC update video says to use system power, but mine's not yet installed in the wii.

Edit: Just trying to get the CH341a itself programmed and I keep getting "write operations timeout failed" does this mean I have a bad unit? It looks identical to the one in the GC video. I tried the old 2.4b firmware just to see if it worked and it's also not writing before timeout. To be clear, I'm not yet programming the wii dual, I'm just trying to get the programmer loaded at this point, and that's timing out.

Also, I'm assuming that I first have to flash the ch341a programmer, then hook it up and flash the wiidual board.
In Dan's video:
https://youtu.be/RSG9kC6o0G0

He says at like 13:30 to flash the device, and then he hooks it up with the power source at 14:30 and flashes the wiidual. Or did I get that totally wrong and he was just running through the procedure the first time around?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:38 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
Updating a wiidual 1.1 with new firmware. Because I'm doing this before plugging it in, I should leave the 3.3 volt pin connected between the programmer and the wiidual, correct?
I'm double checking because the GC update video says to use system power, but mine's not yet installed in the wii.

Edit: Just trying to get the CH341a itself programmed and I keep getting "write operations timeout failed" does this mean I have a bad unit? It looks identical to the one in the GC video. I tried the old 2.4b firmware just to see if it worked and it's also not writing before timeout. To be clear, I'm not yet programming the wii dual, I'm just trying to get the programmer loaded at this point, and that's timing out.

Also, I'm assuming that I first have to flash the ch341a programmer, then hook it up and flash the wiidual board.
In Dan's video:
https://youtu.be/RSG9kC6o0G0

He says at like 13:30 to flash the device, and then he hooks it up with the power source at 14:30 and flashes the wiidual. Or did I get that totally wrong and he was just running through the procedure the first time around?



Everything must be hooked up, the programmer is not loaded with anything. When you hit auto, you are flashing the chip right then, the programmer itself is more of a conduit from the PC to the flash IC.

I only hit auto twice to show what it should look like on the PC screen and what it looks like on the board. I flashed the IC twice. And to avoid confusion, I had all the wires hooked up to everything before I hit auto the first time.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:10 pm 


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Am I just supposed to get a PAL rgb scart cable for the csync jumped WiiDual mod?

FYI. mod works great. thanks for your help with flashing the firmware, citrus3000.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:20 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
Am I just supposed to get a PAL rgb scart cable for the csync jumped WiiDual mod?


SCART: https://retro-access.com/products/wiidu ... cart-cable

BNC: https://retro-access.com/products/wiidu ... udio-cable


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:06 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
Am I just supposed to get a PAL rgb scart cable for the csync jumped WiiDual mod?


SCART: https://retro-access.com/products/wiidu ... cart-cable

BNC: https://retro-access.com/products/wiidu ... udio-cable


Thanks.

Okay, this confuses me. I thought this one was only for using pin 15 for sync as it's the one linked in the wiidual instructions. This is context:

"Retro Access currently sells a RGBS cable that works with Data Pin 15. All other scart cables for the Wii are wired to Composite video."
"Retro Access," in that sentence, links to the cable you linked for me.

The description does mention that it works with csync. Perhaps the pin 15 cable is simply missing from their store right now. Or maybe it works for both?


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:46 am 


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:16 pm 



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Posts: 585
If any of you guys need one of these Retro Access cables I have one (4ft) available to sell and ship right away. I ended up not needing it since I switched to VGA right after getting it.


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:34 pm 


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Thanks. I got it. :)
I guess I was trying to clear up the mystery of the missing sync on data pin 15 cable.


Last edited by vol.2 on Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:58 pm 



Joined: 13 Dec 2016
Posts: 36
Looking forward to the next batch coming in. Was able to get a proper revision board and look forward to installing this whenever the next pre-order quota is met and the board arrives. :) Was very happy that the retro store I got my Wii from looked for an LU7 serial number for me. (As I wanted a gamecube compatible, White Wii and the LU7 serial numbers are all the proper revision of the motherboard for the WiiDual mod).


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 Post subject: Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:55 pm 



Joined: 10 May 2014
Posts: 42
Do the GC and Wii only output YCbCr nativity and then the WiiDual and GCDual convert it to RGB and other video signals?


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