WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

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Konsolkongen
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Konsolkongen »

Maybe it has been far too long since I fired up the Wii. If you are right then I apologize :)
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bobrocks95
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Konsolkongen wrote:Maybe it has been far too long since I fired up the Wii. If you are right then I apologize :)
It probably says more about Wii video quality just never really being all that great that you'd be hoping for another improvement haha.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Konsolkongen »

Lol, you’re probably right :mrgreen:
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Blair
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Blair »

bobrocks95 wrote:Once again I can't lock in proper sampling phase for the Wii on the OSSC. I'm very tired of this scaler at this point.

Anyways here's a line2x 480p capture scaled up 4x with nearest-neighbor in paint.net, without the 480p fix on the left and with the 480p fix on the right (beta Artemio posted for me in the other thread).

Either the 480p fix alters the necessary sampling phase or it really does look that much better. I suspect a little of both, and keep in mind this is extremely blown up. You can see sampling phase isn't quite correct on the right either, certain color transitions look really bad.
Spoiler
Image
Wow, your results are amazing for a stock Wii (with gamecube ports?) what component cable are you using? I'm using the monster cable. I've been working on 480p and 480i sampling phase, but my results look embarrassingly bad compared to yours (I also have LPF turned off). I’m also running a stock wii (with gc ports). Where did you start with your soft-mod upgrading process? (sorry for all the questions).

Here is a pic in your style of what i've been able to do so far (1.10b version of the Wii 240p test) ( scaled up 4x with nearest-neighbor in paint.net (no 480p fix)

OSSC 480p 2x on the left, 480i 4x on the Right.
Spoiler
Image
OSSC settings (Firmware v0.90)
480p
Spoiler

Code: Select all

480p video

-Video in proc-
Video LPF - off

-Sampling opt-
Allow TVP HPLL2X - off
Allow upsample2x - off

<Advanced timing > (480p)
[H. Sample rate - 858.00]
[H. S.rate frac - 0.00]
[H. Synclen - 62]
[H. Backporch - 101]
[H. Active - 640]
[V. Synclen - 6]
[V. Backporch - 30]
[V. Active - 480]
[Sampling phase - 0]

-sync option-
Analog sync LPF - 2.5Mhz (max)
Analog STC LPF - 4.8Mhz (HDTV/PC)

-output option-
HDMI ITC - on
TX mode - HDMI (RGB)
480p / 576p proc - Line2x (960p output mode)

-compatibility-
Full TX setup - off
OSSC settings (Firmware v0.90)
480i
Spoiler

Code: Select all

480i video

-Video in proc-
Video LPF - off

-Sampling opt-
Allow TVP HPLL2X - off
Allow upsample2x - off

<Advanced timing > (480i)
[H. Sample rate - 858.00]
[H. S.rate frac - 0.00]
[H. Synclen - 62]
[H. Backporch - 102]
[H. Active - 640]
[V. Synclen - 3]
[V. Backporch - 15]
[V. Active - 240]
[Sampling phase - 202]

-sync option-
Analog sync LPF - 2.5Mhz (max)
Analog STC LPF - 4.8Mhz (HDTV/PC)

-output option-
HDMI ITC - on
TX mode - HDMI (RGB)
480i / 576i proc - Line4x (bob) (960p output mode)
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Rulumi
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Rulumi »

USB Loader GX should be able to patch WiiWare and VC games.

And isn't a slight color bleed normal because of the console (both the GameCube and Wii) making the 4:2:2 YCbCr framebuffer downsampling?

If so, only Dolphin can give out a 4:4:4 RGB output from source for existing software.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Blair wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:Once again I can't lock in proper sampling phase for the Wii on the OSSC. I'm very tired of this scaler at this point.

Anyways here's a line2x 480p capture scaled up 4x with nearest-neighbor in paint.net, without the 480p fix on the left and with the 480p fix on the right (beta Artemio posted for me in the other thread).

Either the 480p fix alters the necessary sampling phase or it really does look that much better. I suspect a little of both, and keep in mind this is extremely blown up. You can see sampling phase isn't quite correct on the right either, certain color transitions look really bad.
Spoiler
Image
Wow, your results are amazing for a stock Wii (with gamecube ports?) what component cable are you using? I'm using the monster cable. I've been working on 480p and 480i sampling phase, but my results look embarrassingly bad compared to yours (I also have LPF turned off). I’m also running a stock wii (with gc ports). Where did you start with your soft-mod upgrading process? (sorry for all the questions).
Launch, stock Wii with Gamecube ports. Third-party component cable, not OEM or monster- I want to say it's the white Nyko one. Video in LPF on the OSSC is set to EDTV. So much for the RVL-101 looking better theory maybe?

Softmod isn't anything special, I was having booting issues so I used ModMii and NUS Downloader to replace my IOS 80 with a clean, original version (it had some old cIOS on it from older modding efforts). I went ahead and downloaded the stub versions for the older system menu IOS' as well, figured it wouldn't hurt. Updated Priiloader by getting the latest version of the installer (make sure you get the hacks_hash file) and re-installing over top of the old one.



Try the version of the 240p test suite Artemio posted that has the 480p fix- viewtopic.php?p=1490405#p1490405. I made a new folder for it, copied the downloaded DOL and the old 240p suite's .xml and icon files, and then just added "Beta" to the xml's name to make sure I didn't confuse which one I was using, though the menus look quite different between the two so it won't be hard. Just nice to have both versions handy for comparison, rather than overwriting the DOL for the old one.

I adjusted sampling based on that updated version with the fix. I'd love to see if you can get close to the same results, especially since you already calibrated as best you could on the older 240p suite.

The problem for me remains figuring out the easiest way to get it system wide, and verifying that it's active with careful testing.
Rulumi wrote:USB Loader GX should be able to patch WiiWare and VC games.
I'll give it a try. Maybe I can autoboot to it and just forget the Wii system menu ever existed lol. No Riivolution solution though.

If my results are accurate for the quality jump, maybe there'd be more of an incentive to develop a system-wide patch. It might involve patching every IOS, or somehow intercepting the I2C configuration calls, or manually configuring it again after IOS load. Don't know how feasible any of that would be.

I saw the initial posts from that guy with a 480p panel showing Mario Kart Wii and the difference looked extremely slight- I think scaling the results and using digital capture are showing the details much more clearly. I've seen plenty of people say not to bother worrying about it since the improvement is so little, but this to me looks more like 3-chip vs 1-chip SNES comparisons (maybe not quite that bad).

Do you happen to know how the Priiloader patch is working? Manual I2C configuration, or doing something with the system menu IOS maybe?
And isn't a slight color bleed normal because of the console (both the GameCube and Wii) making the 4:2:2 YCbCr framebuffer downsampling?

If so, only Dolphin can give out a 4:4:4 RGB output from source for existing software.
That could be my remaining issue, but it looks more like an OSSC issue to me. It's that flickery sort of afterimage that I get on other consoles when the sampling phase isn't set quite right. I'm kind of over the constant fiddling with the OSSC. Either way if this is the kind of results the Wii can give with the 480p fix, I'm happy. Gamecube (via HDMI) looks good to me even with the 4:2:2.

EDIT: I can't tell any difference whatsoever with the Priiloader system menu 480p fix on or off. Down to a 16x integer zoom and it honestly looks like nothing is happening past sampling margin of error/minor analog noise. Wonder how they tested it... Will try finding something nice to test USB Loader GX with.

EDIT 2: USB Loader GX testing with Mario Kart Wii. Not convinced that I don't just have sampling set incorrectly on the OSSC for one or the other, the 480p fix is very subtle for this except for certain smeary color transitions which could be all down to sampling phase. Need someone with a Retrotink 5x in here...

Stock on top, 480p fix on bottom:
Spoiler
Image
Overall general sharpness doesn't really seem improved to me...
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Rulumi
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Rulumi »

If you want a bit more of sharpness for Mario Kart Wii, you can try disabling the deflicker filter, the option to do so from USB Loader GX should work fine for Mario Kart Wii.

And the Priiloader option patches the System Menu itself I think.
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bobrocks95
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Rulumi wrote:If you want a bit more of sharpness for Mario Kart Wii, you can try disabling the deflicker filter, the option to do so from USB Loader GX should work fine for Mario Kart Wii.

And the Priiloader option patches the System Menu itself I think.
Yeah I was testing on the system menu. Deleted the captures because they were basically identical, I don't know that Priiloader is doing anything actually. Mario Kart Wii was subtle but noticeable (though like I said maybe OSSC settings are skewing results).
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tesla246
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by tesla246 »

That is because gamecube (and wii) image quality has hit a ceiling because of the 4:2:2 Ycbcr signal.

It is THE culprit of the fuzzy image quality many describe as blurry. Sure there may have been other factors at play in the past, such as the flicker filter, but 4:2:2 colour reproduction causes a baseline of blurriness that is always there, and you cannot circumvent. Many people seem to notice this, but do not know what is the cause of it.
That is why there was a bit of a discussion when gcvideo just launched, if it was really that much of an improvement over component. Why was that? Simple; HDMI is sharper, but the blurriness of 4:2:2 becomes sharper/more evident as well, cancelling out much of the increased sharpness a digital signal gives on an HDTV.
That is especially noticeable between high contrast colours; see mario's hat in sunshine and text in many games.

Look at some dreamcast games with DCDigital to see what I mean; everything pops and is razor sharp, even in 720p youtube videos.

Though I can't really fault Nintendo for the cost savings of the EFB; on a crt the difference is much less prominent.
It is just a shame, because it affects the whole picture of every. single. game. you play.

GBI on gamecube does some trickery to get RGB 4:4:4, and looks stellar as a result. If only this could be solved...
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Rulumi
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Rulumi »

I wasn't able to see much difference with the version of the 240p Suite with the 480p bug fixed SDK, I'm not sure if this is because my Wii isn't a launch model but a mid production one (but I doubt it's a 40 or newer because of the serial number) or my bad component cable.

Anyways, you should be able to see a difference in games that use the deflicker fliter on progressive if you disable it, the results may vary according to the version of the filter the game uses.

With the deflicker filter these games use by default:
Spoiler
Image
Image
With it deactivated:
Spoiler
Image
Image
Note that deactivating the deflicker filter will make dithering more obvious and also some games don't use it on progressive already by default.
fernan1234
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by fernan1234 »

There's a real difference there, which one is preferable will come down to taste depending on your tolerance for more jaggies in exchange for less blur or viceversa.

The concept of turd polishing is really apt for this as much as it is for N64 mods (which I also have, but like with the WiiDual for reasons of convenience rather than getting the sharpest picture possible).
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Konsolkongen
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Konsolkongen »

bobrocks95 wrote:
Konsolkongen wrote:Maybe it has been far too long since I fired up the Wii. If you are right then I apologize :)
It probably says more about Wii video quality just never really being all that great that you'd be hoping for another improvement haha.
I just finished a Wii Dual install for a friend and you are right. The 480p fix doesn't improve anything with the mod installed :)

Still I'm wondering what's going on with the parts of the Wii's image. It looks like there is some kind of ugly sharpening effect in place, as there is ringing present (both analog and digital out).

Take a look at the text in the top of this image. The word "file" has massive ringing especially noticeable next to the f and the l.

Analog (OSSC linedoubled to 960p):
https://i.imgur.com/MCezZWb.jpg

Digital (direct to TV in 480p):
https://i.imgur.com/qZRWWLC.jpg

Both are with chroma interpolation on, but the option doesn't affect this. Any insight in why this is happening? It does seem like an intended effect by Nintendo :(
tesla246
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by tesla246 »

To my eye it is because of the YCBCR 4:2:2 image output; no way around this.

It is especially noticeable between high contrast parts of a picture, it is no wonder your example regards text, which is usually high in contrast relative to the rest of the picture.

You see it on the left on the letter ''h'' as well.

Also, look at both lerrers ''l'; it is the same letter, but they look different! That is because the chroma interpolation is different presumably because the one letter l starts at the even vertical lines, while the other does at the uneven vertical lines; resulting in a difference in chroma interpolation, and thus alters colour/sharpness in a different way.

Also, uneven scaling might fuck it up even more (not sure what your scaler settings are), but the root cause of the gamecube/wii poor image quality is not having RGB 4:4:4.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Extrems »

It has nothing to do with chroma subsampling. It's ringing from the sinc-windowed sinc horizontal scaler.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by tesla246 »

Ah yes the thing that bothered me most in that image occupied my thoughts :(

Seems like a timing/sync issue indeed.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Extrems wrote:It has nothing to do with chroma subsampling. It's ringing from the sinc-windowed sinc horizontal scaler.
Is that horizontal scaler also what causes the graphical artifacts in Wind Waker? I recall big rectangles showing up on screen, mostly visible on solid colors like when sailing, after finally getting to try out a component cable. I think I remember reading it was something with horizontal scaling on that engine (was in Twilight Princess Gamecube too I wanna say?)
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Extrems
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Extrems »

I don't know what you mean by big rectangles, but it does smear the dithering into vertical lines that go in-and-out of phase on a period.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Extrems wrote:I don't know what you mean by big rectangles, but it does smear the dithering into vertical lines that go in-and-out of phase on a period.
Just misremembering, that was it, vertical bars from horizontal scaling. Thought my display was really messed up at the time. Found some old posts where I had actually asked about it http://gc-forever.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 432#p33258
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by FriendofSonic »

Sorry to necro-bump this thread. I had a question, which I was having some difficulty finding the answer to via google searches. I had my GC with GCDual installed sent off to an installer to get 3.1 flashed (I was on an old firmware) It came back, and all is fine aside from what seems to be a noisy picture (hooking up via Scart to a CRT). It seems like a less aggressive version of RF interference if you imagine the noise that a NES had hooked up via RF. If I turn off line doubling for 480i, it takes care of it entirely, but becomes very flickery (which is probably to be expected with a 480i output on a CRT though I feel like this is a bit worse) EDIT- the flicker is really only bad with the OSD up, didn't notice until I exited the menu and looked.
I honestly do not remember any sort of noisy picture, or having to deal with flicker to alleviate noise, prior to the FW update. Is there some setting that got reset perhaps that I've now forgotten about?

EDIT: Booted Smash Bros in 480p... and it's got the fuzzy picture. This doesn't seem to be an issue with using linedoubling to force 480p but perhaps just a 480p issue? I haven't an idea what would cause this on my PVM unless the scart cable is built out to a specific spec, and I've mixed up the scart cables from my SNES/N64 on accident
After further testing... I think it's a cable issue. I'm not certain why I'm getting interference with it. It's from Retro Access and labeled as 'SNES Sync'. Trying it on my RGB N64 and SNES jr., I get the same distortion. I wonder if something is wrong with the cable.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by fernan1234 »

FriendofSonic wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:54 pm EDIT: Booted Smash Bros in 480p... and it's got the fuzzy picture. This doesn't seem to be an issue with using linedoubling to force 480p but perhaps just a 480p issue? I haven't an idea what would cause this on my PVM unless the scart cable is built out to a specific spec, and I've mixed up the scart cables from my SNES/N64 on accident
No idea if anything changed in the newer FWs, but regardless you should not be using the linedoubling at all. It should be turned off. To use 480p you should instead set your GC itself to output native 480p, with compatible games of course.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by FriendofSonic »

fernan1234 wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 3:22 am
FriendofSonic wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:54 pm EDIT: Booted Smash Bros in 480p... and it's got the fuzzy picture. This doesn't seem to be an issue with using linedoubling to force 480p but perhaps just a 480p issue? I haven't an idea what would cause this on my PVM unless the scart cable is built out to a specific spec, and I've mixed up the scart cables from my SNES/N64 on accident
No idea if anything changed in the newer FWs, but regardless you should not be using the linedoubling at all. It should be turned off. To use 480p you should instead set your GC itself to output native 480p, with compatible games of course.
After some testing, I think there's something causing interference in that cable. I switched cables and it's displaying fine. Now I gotta figure out what could be causing interference in the cable- it's a heavily shielded one from Retro Access
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by vol.2 »

FriendofSonic wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 4:19 amNow I gotta figure out what could be causing interference in the cable- it's a heavily shielded one from Retro Access

If there's nothing wrong with the housing, then you might have an issue inside the connector
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