WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

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strayan
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by strayan »

I connect my wiidual to a CRT using an external DAC. I’d love to know what dropping analog support would get us.
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kitty666cats
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by kitty666cats »

https://twitter.com/kadano/status/1406976302092013574

This post has intrigued me a teensy bit RE: those super cheap Wii2HDMI dongles, haha. thchardcore and myself talk about random video gear/obscure converters ‘n cables etc quite often - he tried one of these adapters and it pretty much shat the bed immediately.

I also sent him a VDigi VD-W2, it’s a “VGA” cable for Wii with a inline component to RGB transcoder. It is a far nicer one than the cheap Mayflash cables, with a more complex circuit (which doesn’t implement a LMH1251! Pretty rare to see a component to RGB that doesn’t use one, particularly nowadays). He has found it to be the nicest ‘n sharpest output compared to all other solutions he’s tried. It also has a dipswitch on it for RGBS instead of RGBHV, if needed - makes it convenient for 480i/240p displays!

I definitely suggest keeping an eye out for one at your local retro game stores etc - but it’s probably not worth relentlessly scouring for either… are several very good component to RGB transcoders nowadays :)

(This post is all RE: non-modded Wiis, haha. I am kinda interested in the VGA mod on bitbuilt - maybe someday, heh)
Issac Zachary
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Issac Zachary »

What is the difference between 480i and 480p on the Wii as far as visual quality goes? It looks like I'm going to be able to keep my CRT's, but only have played the Wii on the TV (NTSC 480i) via S-Video as my TV only has Composite, S-Video and RGB (modded) intputs, but no component. So I've tossed around the idea of going with a Y-Pb-Pr to RGB (on composite or luma) transcoder.

But I also have a VGA CRT monitor, which is noticeably smaller. But if I want 480p on a CRT that would mean I'd need a Y-Pb-Pr to RGB-HV (VGA) transcoder. I found this one on NewEgg: VGA/YPbPr Component to VGA Video Audio Converter for PS2/PS3/Wii DVD Player

I guess I could do both...

I'm actually pretty bummed because quite a while ago I went and traded my GameCube compatible Wii for a non-GC compatible Wii because the latter would have been compatible with the Wii Dual, if I could find one. But they're history.

Now I need a GameCube or go back to a GC compatible Wii. I have a Mister so I don't really need a GC Gameboy player.
fernan1234
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by fernan1234 »

Issac Zachary wrote:What is the difference between 480i and 480p on the Wii as far as visual quality goes?
On a CRT it doesn't matter. In fact I'm of the opinion that on a CRT 480i actually looks better, as long as combing artifacts don't bother you more than more pixelated/aliased-looking early 2000s 3D graphics.

480p is only worth it IMO if all you have is a VGA CRT or you're playing on a flat panel.
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kitty666cats
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by kitty666cats »

You definitely don’t want that component to VGA you linked - it’s got scaling, is not a pure transcoder.

https://www.js-technology.com/store/ind ... er=product

https://www.ebay.com/itm/YPbPr-to-VGA-R ... 4151197806

One of these is a far better option for you
Issac Zachary
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Issac Zachary »

kitty666cats wrote:You definitely don’t want that component to VGA you linked - it’s got scaling, is not a pure transcoder.

https://www.js-technology.com/store/ind ... er=product

https://www.ebay.com/itm/YPbPr-to-VGA-R ... 4151197806

One of these is a far better option for you
Wow! Awesome! Thanks!

I was aware of the RetroTink Y-Pb-Pr to RGBs, but one of these would be awesome to be able to try out 480p (or even 720p with the PS2?) on VGA!

I like having options.
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kitty666cats
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by kitty666cats »

Issac Zachary wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:You definitely don’t want that component to VGA you linked - it’s got scaling, is not a pure transcoder.

https://www.js-technology.com/store/ind ... er=product

https://www.ebay.com/itm/YPbPr-to-VGA-R ... 4151197806

One of these is a far better option for you
Wow! Awesome! Thanks!

I was aware of the RetroTink Y-Pb-Pr to RGBs, but one of these would be awesome to be able to try out 480p (or even 720p with the PS2?) on VGA!

I like having options.
Both of them will gladly output 480i/240p as well :)
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Das Muel
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Das Muel »

The 480i RGB output from a Wii was always preferable to the 480p output in my opinion, if you use a CRT or have a nice way to deinterlace it of course. The component output is blurry and colours are murky and ugly. The RGB output is absolutely pristine in comparison, despite the obvious limits of 480i.
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Issac Zachary
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Issac Zachary »

Das Muel wrote:The 480i RGB output from a Wii was always preferable to the 480p output in my opinion, if you use a CRT or have a nice way to deinterlace it of course. The component output is blurry and colours are murky and ugly. The RGB output is absolutely pristine in comparison, despite the obvious limits of 480i.
But, but, but, here in the USA Wii's don't natively output RGB. The WiiDual can output RGB, but is not longer available. So unless there's a way to get a European Wii here in the States and get NTSC games to work on it, which may be viable, I don't know, or another RGB mod is available, people like me are stuck with component.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by fernan1234 »

Issac Zachary wrote:
Das Muel wrote:The 480i RGB output from a Wii was always preferable to the 480p output in my opinion, if you use a CRT or have a nice way to deinterlace it of course. The component output is blurry and colours are murky and ugly. The RGB output is absolutely pristine in comparison, despite the obvious limits of 480i.
But, but, but, here in the USA Wii's don't natively output RGB. The WiiDual can output RGB, but is not longer available. So unless there's a way to get a European Wii here in the States and get NTSC games to work on it, which may be viable, I don't know, or another RGB mod is available, people like me are stuck with component.
480i YPbPr is just as good in terms of picture quality, and if your TV is properly calibrated colors should be about as good too. And Wii component cables are cheap and easy to find (just gotta hope the audio lines are at least decently shielded).
Issac Zachary
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Issac Zachary »

fernan1234 wrote:
Issac Zachary wrote:
Das Muel wrote:The 480i RGB output from a Wii was always preferable to the 480p output in my opinion, if you use a CRT or have a nice way to deinterlace it of course. The component output is blurry and colours are murky and ugly. The RGB output is absolutely pristine in comparison, despite the obvious limits of 480i.
But, but, but, here in the USA Wii's don't natively output RGB. The WiiDual can output RGB, but is not longer available. So unless there's a way to get a European Wii here in the States and get NTSC games to work on it, which may be viable, I don't know, or another RGB mod is available, people like me are stuck with component.
480i YPbPr is just as good in terms of picture quality, and if your TV is properly calibrated colors should be about as good too. And Wii component cables are cheap and easy to find (just gotta hope the audio lines are at least decently shielded).
That's what RetroRGB Bob said too.

Also, apparently the later Wii's like mine, have better picture quality too.
fernan1234
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by fernan1234 »

Issac Zachary wrote:Also, apparently the later Wii's like mine, have better picture quality too.
This may be mainly a myth, or if valid it only applies to 480p output, pretty sure that 480i (and 240p) is the same across all Wiis.

BTW, via softmodding you can change the region of a Wii back and forth across NTSC, NTSC-J, and PAL, so you can actually turn an NTSC console into a "PAL" one and output RGB from using a Wii SCART cable (or non-SCART custom RGB cable wired appropriately).
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bobrocks95
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

fernan1234 wrote:
Issac Zachary wrote:Also, apparently the later Wii's like mine, have better picture quality too.
This may be mainly a myth, or if valid it only applies to 480p output, pretty sure that 480i (and 240p) is the same across all Wiis.

BTW, via softmodding you can change the region of a Wii back and forth across NTSC, NTSC-J, and PAL, so you can actually turn an NTSC console into a "PAL" one and output RGB from using a Wii SCART cable (or non-SCART custom RGB cable wired appropriately).
I will throw in my 2 cents to say that I went out and bought a black Wii with the supposed better quality output, sat there and switched between my white launch Wii and it over 480p component into an OSSC, and couldn't tell a difference at all. Maybe direct captures reveal more (I'm sure there are some old images around here somewhere) but in my opinion the difference is overblown. We're not talking a 3-chip SNES vs a 1-chip SNES.
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matt
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by matt »

I can't tell the difference between early and late Wii revisions in 480p. However, using the Wiidual in 480p analog makes a world of difference. The blurriness in the Wii's native 480p output is real.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Konsolkongen »

matt wrote:I can't tell the difference between early and late Wii revisions in 480p. However, using the Wiidual in 480p analog makes a world of difference. The blurriness in the Wii's native 480p output is real.
I agree. Wii Dual component into an OSSC looks a lot better than the stock output. It really is a night and day difference, it's probably as good as it will ever get but unfortunately still far from a perfect signal. It's been a while since I have used mine but massive chroma subsampling and chroma shifting comes to mind.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by fernan1234 »

Konsolkongen wrote:It's been a while since I have used mine but massive chroma subsampling and chroma shifting comes to mind.
Those were GCVideo bugs that were fixed a long time ago. If you're on a firmware that still has those you'll have to manually flash a new firmware onto the board.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Konsolkongen »

I didn’t explain that well. I was describing the raw digital output from the Wii. The Wii Dual does the best it can to mitigate those problems. Which is why I think it’s a night and day difference :)

It’s decent with the mod, but it will never be as good as say 480p from a PS2.
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Extrems
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Extrems »

Does this forum have amnesia?

viewtopic.php?p=1361158#p1361158
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bobrocks95
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Extrems wrote:Does this forum have amnesia?

viewtopic.php?p=1361158#p1361158
Well, it has been 3 years to be fair...

Never heard about how to fix the problem system wide except for installing a WiiDual to bypass all I2C configuration though. If there's some system-wide software patch available by now I'm all ears.
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Rulumi
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Rulumi »

USB Loader GX has a patch for the 480p bug (as well as ones for the deflicker filter) that should work fine on most games, it can load discs in case you want it to too as well.

As for the System Menu, the latest version of Priiloader has an option to patch it, in theory patching it on the System Menu should also fix it on Game Cube games launched from the Disc "Channel", however it may vary in how the implementation is done.

The latest version of Nintendont should have the bug fixed too.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Rulumi wrote:USB Loader GX has a patch for the 480p bug (as well as ones for the deflicker filter) that should work fine on most games, it can load discs in case you want it to too as well.

As for the System Menu, the latest version of Priiloader has an option to patch it, in theory patching it on the System Menu should also fix it on Game Cube games launched from the Disc "Channel", however it may vary in how the implementation is done.

The latest version of Nintendont should have the bug fixed too.
For Priiloader I'm guessing it's the "480p graphics fix in system menu" option? Why does that fix (maybe) apply to Gamecube games, no I2C configuration performed when booting them or something? Doesn't apply to Wii discs because a new ios is chosen or something?

I'll check the options out tomorrow. Hopefully one of them can come somewhat close to regularly booting a retail disc. Maybe some sort of channel forwarder + automatic disc boot can make if act like stock?
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Syntax
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Syntax »

Im not sure if it helps in this situation, but modding the wii with https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?t ... v1-5.4295/ will force 480p with the patch across the entire system.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Syntax wrote:Im not sure if it helps in this situation, but modding the wii with https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?t ... v1-5.4295/ will force 480p with the patch across the entire system.
Looks kind of like the nuclear option, built for portables and far from a stock experience. Worth looking into more though!

EDIT: As usual I'm having trouble setting up sampling phase on the OSSC. Seems like this 480p bug isn't helping either. I definitely see a difference comparing screencaps of the home menu with the priiloader hack, but I think it throws off the sampling phase calibration and I don't know if the 240p test suite has the bug or not...
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Rulumi
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Rulumi »

bobrocks95 wrote: For Priiloader I'm guessing it's the "480p graphics fix in system menu" option? Why does that fix (maybe) apply to Gamecube games, no I2C configuration performed when booting them or something? Doesn't apply to Wii discs because a new ios is chosen or something?
Yes, that's the Priiloader option. And since a different IOS and title is loaded, the configuration for the launched title is loaded and used, which includes the video encoder one.

GameCube games were not made with talking to the Wii video encoder in mind, so instead they inherit the configuration from the System Menu.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Rulumi wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote: For Priiloader I'm guessing it's the "480p graphics fix in system menu" option? Why does that fix (maybe) apply to Gamecube games, no I2C configuration performed when booting them or something? Doesn't apply to Wii discs because a new ios is chosen or something?
Yes, that's the Priiloader option. And since a different IOS and title is loaded, the configuration for the launched title is loaded and used, which includes the video encoder one.

GameCube games were not made with talking to the Wii video encoder in mind, so instead they inherit the configuration from the System Menu.
Makes sense. I spent most of yesterday fixing my Wii softmod anyways (had a cIOS on IOS 80, which I don't think is recommended these days. System menu didn't want to boot even though it was working last time I used it...), so maybe I can do some more actual testing today. I did realize that the 240p test suite forces a 4:3 output and I need to change my OSSC H.Active for that.
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bobrocks95
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Once again I can't lock in proper sampling phase for the Wii on the OSSC. I'm very tired of this scaler at this point.

Anyways here's a line2x 480p capture scaled up 4x with nearest-neighbor in paint.net, without the 480p fix on the left and with the 480p fix on the right (beta Artemio posted for me in the other thread).

Either the 480p fix alters the necessary sampling phase or it really does look that much better. I suspect a little of both, and keep in mind this is extremely blown up. You can see sampling phase isn't quite correct on the right either, certain color transitions look really bad.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Konsolkongen »

Is that with Wii Dual or with stock component? Looks great :O
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bobrocks95
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Konsolkongen wrote:Is that with Wii Dual or with stock component? Looks great :O
Stock component! WiiDual does not have the 480p bug.

Can't say I'll enjoy having to launch everything through USB Loader GX though. That also doesn't cover Riivolution games I have like the Captain Rainbow and Fatal Frame 4 translations, and I'm guessing WiiWare or VC games either. It kinda seems like you need a WiiDual right now to get the fix system wide and easily :\
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by Konsolkongen »

Why would the Wii Dual not have this problem? If I understood Extrems correctly this is a mistake in all software made for the console.

It has been a while since I powered my Wii on. Will try updating priiloader one of these days and see if it makes a difference.

Edit: I do have a Wii Dual installed.
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Re: WiiDual / GCVideo discussion

Post by bobrocks95 »

Konsolkongen wrote:Why would the Wii Dual not have this problem? If I understood Extrems correctly this is a mistake in all software made for the console.

It has been a while since I powered my Wii on. Will try updating priiloader one of these days and see if it makes a difference.

Edit: I do have a Wii Dual installed.
viewtopic.php?p=1361386#p1361386

It's a configuration error on the video encoder. WiiDual completely bypasses the video encoder. You won't notice any difference since you have one installed.
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