Questions about ABT scalers and the OSSC

[Xaranar]

So I’m looking to get an ABT scaler and there’s a few things I want to know about them. Many tout the VP50 Pro as the perfect partner to the OSSC, but if you’re only using it with the OSSC, is there any real benefit to getting the Pro over the standard VP50? Also, what about the DVDO Edge? Would that be better or worse than the VP50/Pro?

Thanks.

[Fudoh]

DVDO introduced a new scaling and sharpening engine beginning with the 50Pro. The VP50 is the last unit without that. The 50Pro can utilize edge and detail enhancement while keeping the low latency for progressive sources. The Edge has these controls as well, but can't use in game mode.

This said, the VP50 is still a great machine. You simply might have to use your TVs sharpness controls instead to tune in the image to your liking.

[Xer Xian]

If you need to upscale 480p signals, keep in mind that the VP50's will need to have some massaging to accept the OSSC Line2x480p output (and after having seen the DSC 301 handling of 480p, you will NOT like the result with a stand-alone DVDO). More info here: https://www.videogameperfection.com/201 ... 2-changer/

The Edge will accept 960p with no further tweaking, but it has a bug which increases the processing lag to 25-30ms for some systems.

[Hoagtech]

What about the Lumagen Radiance Pro?



it touts itself pretty big. Heres some bullets on it from the company

--Proprietary NoRing scaling

-- regarded as the world's best video processor (their clame)

-- 21-point greyscale calibration Per-pixel

Has any body used one

[Fudoh]

The Pro is still insanely expensive - according to Lumagen due to the extremely expensive FPGAs neccessary for CMS in 4K60.

From following the RadPro thread on the AVS boards, these are the expected evolution from the previous Lumagen Radiance units. I've had a Radiance XE 3D unit and now have a XS machine. They perform well, but my biggest gripe is their internal 4:2:2 processing. Also with HD input from either a current system or from an OSSC, the results from a Radiance compared to any DVDO unit are rather close. The added ringing on the DVDO is still visible, but it gets less and less visible with higher input resolutions.

[Xaranar]

DVDO introduced a new scaling and sharpening engine beginning with the 50Pro. The VP50 is the last unit without that. The 50Pro can utilize edge and detail enhancement while keeping the low latency for progressive sources. The Edge has these controls as well, but can't use in game mode.

This said, the VP50 is still a great machine. You simply might have to use your TVs sharpness controls instead to tune in the image to your liking.

All I'm really looking to do is pass a 1080p signal from my OSSC into another scaler that will spit it out in a format my monitor will accept, as it doesn't accept anything other than line2x from any source when connecting direct. I'm currently using a Crestron HD-Scaler, which, whilst very limited in terms of its controls, will accept a line5x signal from my OSSC, with extremely low latency as well, I consistently get 0ms in the manual lag test on the 240p test suite.

I also fine tune my OSSC for 320x240 and 256x240 optimised modes, so the picture I get out of it is already razor sharp. I also want to run my HDMI modified GameCube, and Wii, through whichever scaler I decide upon as well, as my monitor does not have any aspect ratio control and as a result I can't make use of anamorphic widescreen.

With all that being said, VP50, VP50Pro, or Edge?

[Xyga]

Just a question; what is your monitor ?

edit: obvious waste of time thread

[Fudoh]

I don't know how the Crestron looks, so I can't compare it. In general, if you tune your horizontal scaling and you're coming from a 4:4:4 post processing scenario, then anything involving 4:2:2 might be a disappointment for you.

Also x4 and x5 compatibility on the DVDOs is limited (and various from machine to machine).

[Xaranar]

Just a question; what is your monitor ?

edit: obvious waste of time thread

My monitor is an ASUS ROG PG27AQ.

[Xaranar]

I don't know how the Crestron looks, so I can't compare it. In general, if you tune your horizontal scaling and you're coming from a 4:4:4 post processing scenario, then anything involving 4:2:2 might be a disappointment for you.

Also x4 and x5 compatibility on the DVDOs is limited (and various from machine to machine).

If that’s the case, I might just stick with what I have. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, right? Do the DVDO scalers only output in limited range RGB?

[Fudoh]

Do the DVDO scalers only output in limited range RGB?

no, they output in whatever you set them to.

[Xaranar]

So why would I be limited to 4:2:2 chroma sampling with a DVDO?

[Fudoh]

because it was built as a home theater processor. Every digital video source (DVD, Blu-Ray, DVB) is 4:2:0 to start with, so it doesn't matter and to save bandwith the internal processing on the DVDOs is 4:2:2 only. 4:4:4 input signals are down converted. If you set the output to RGB or YCbCr 4:4:4 (or if you use the analogue outputs), then the chroma signal is upsampled again after the internal processing.

[Xaranar]

Really? So all ABT scalers produce a lossy output, regardless of digital or analogue input?

[Fudoh]

Really? So all ABT scalers produce a lossy output, regardless of digital or analogue input?

If your original source is genuine 4:4:4, then yes. And it's not only a DVDO thing. Most home theater processors are limited to internal 4:2:2 processing. Same thing is most home theater processors.

just note that 4:4:4 is hardly a thing for most people. Especially now with 4K and the possibility to set a PS4Pro's output to 4:2:0, it's hard to believe how often I hear it recommended to set the PS4 to that output to solve all kinds of HDMI compatibility issues (which are essentially bandwith issues).

[Xaranar]

I believe the OSSC outputs in RGB as opposed to YCbCr, either way, the signal is uncompressed. How do you know that home theatre processors process internally at 4:2:2? Do you know of any scalers, home theatre or no, that process without compression?

[Fudoh]

I believe the OSSC outputs in RGB as opposed to YCbCr, either way, the signal is uncompressed. How do you know that home theatre processors process internally at 4:2:2? Do you know of any scalers, home theatre or no, that process without compression?

The OSSC is strictly RGB 4:4:4, yes. The Framemeister is internally limited to 4:2:2, but the initial FPGA processing is still in 4:4:4, so it looks better than processor that down convert to 4:2:2 right away.

I don't have a recommendation for 4:4:4 and a frame locked output. If you can live without a frame lock (meaning you set the output refresh rate indepently from the input refresh rate), then the Crystalio II shines with brilliant internal 4:4:4 processing.

There are other professional scalers with 4:4:4 processing, but they usually fail in other departments. There are five points to consider:

- input compatibility (OSSC x3, x4, x5)
- scaling quality (scanlines should still look hot after scaling)
- low latency (not more than a frame)
- frame locked output
- internal 4:4:4 processing.

If I can get 1-4 all good, then I'm willing to compromise in point 5.

[Xaranar]

I believe the OSSC outputs in RGB as opposed to YCbCr, either way, the signal is uncompressed. How do you know that home theatre processors process internally at 4:2:2? Do you know of any scalers, home theatre or no, that process without compression?

The OSSC is strictly RGB 4:4:4, yes. The Framemeister is internally limited to 4:2:2, but the initial FPGA processing is still in 4:4:4, so it looks better than processor that down convert to 4:2:2 right away.

I don't have a recommendation for 4:4:4 and a frame locked output. If you can live without a frame lock (meaning you set the output refresh rate indepently from the input refresh rate), then the Crystalio II shines with brilliant internal 4:4:4 processing.

There are other professional scalers with 4:4:4 processing, but they usually fail in other departments. There are five points to consider:

- input compatibility (OSSC x3, x4, x5)
- scaling quality (scanlines should still look hot after scaling)
- low latency (not more than a frame)
- frame locked output
- internal 4:4:4 processing.

If I can get 1-4 all good, then I'm willing to compromise in point 5.

I think I'll give the edge a go, for a few reasons; firstly being that, as you said, it uses the newer scaling engine first used in the VP50Pro. Secondly, having had a look through the OSSC forums, it is possible to tweak the OSSC settings to give a picture in 5x mode. I do know that certain consoles cause a bug in the edge that increases its lag to around 25ms, but if I understand this correctly, this only affects analogue signals. Lastly, I'm not too bothered about not being able to use edge enhancement or noise reduction in game mode, as, please correct me if I'm wrong, but the noise is present in the initial analogue to digital conversion in the OSSC, and applying edge enhancement or noise reduction in the edge is likely to make the picture look worse rather than better?

[Xer Xian]

Didn't you open a thread about the Extron DSC 301 HD or am I misremembering? Because that scaler satisfies all the requirements Fudoh listed above. Only thing I've not tried yet is feeding it weird refresh rates.

[Xaranar]

Didn't you open a thread about the Extron DSC 301 HD or am I misremembering? Because that scaler satisfies all the requirements Fudoh listed above. Only thing I've not tried yet is feeding it weird refresh rates.

Yes, that was me, the only problem with the 301 HD is it does not like my SNES via the OSSC at all. Mega Drive works fine, but the SNES, due to its oddball 60.08Hz refresh rate does not play nice.

[Fudoh]

The reason why you might want edge and detail enhancement is that you apply negative values to these - and with that you can counter the ringing present on DVDO's scaling engine. It's an interesting feature which I really like.

[Xaranar]

The reason why you might want edge and detail enhancement is that you apply negative values to these - and with that you can counter the ringing present on DVDO's scaling engine. It's an interesting feature which I really like.

And there was me thinking ringing is something that is difficult to counter when it comes to scaling, particularly with 480p sources.

[Fudoh]

On 480p sources it's too strong to counter completely, plus 4:2:2 takes a huge toll here. But 720p with negative DE/EE looks amazingly good.

[Xaranar]

I only ever use 1080p, except for my GameCube and Wii, which are limited to 480p. Yes, it crops off top and bottom, but with 720p you have black borders at top and bottom, and my personal preference is to have the picture blown up bigger and sharper.

[ASDR]

It's always disheartening to read these discussions and see that there's no really obvious companion processor to the OSSC. Everything seems to have its own set of issues, is out-of-production and increasingly difficult to get.

How does a Framemeister fare when used with the OSSC? It has HDMI inputs, apparently supports a passthrough mode and I assume its desirable features (zoom, quality de-interlacing and converting to standard resolutions and refresh rates) can be used with HDMI sources like the OSSC?

[strygo]

FBX actually had some compelling results when pairing the OSSC with the Framemeister. If I recall, it required dialing in specific timing settings, but the pictures he shared of some Dreamcast titles looked fantastic.

[ZellSF]

It's always disheartening to read these discussions and see that there's no really obvious companion processor to the OSSC. Everything seems to have its own set of issues, is out-of-production and increasingly difficult to get.

I say the DVDOs are fairly obvious. There's some considerations to make when choosing which one to get and if you want a VP50 Pro you might have to wait for a while, but availability for the others are decent (especially if you consider the Duo as an Edge, I think they're fairly identical).

How does a Framemeister fare when used with the OSSC? It has HDMI inputs, apparently supports a passthrough mode and I assume its desirable features (zoom, quality de-interlacing and converting to standard resolutions and refresh rates) can be used with HDMI sources like the OSSC?

You get the input lag and long time to switch resolution problems of the Framemeister. Only advantage you get from that pairing over just using the Framemeister is no picture noise (and 480pX2, so less 480p problems).

Buying a Framemeister as a companion processor to the OSSC isn't a good idea at any rate. If you have one try it and see if you like it.

[orange808]

Mind that DVDO Edge bug with some sources.

FWIW, there are some options that might deliver everything on Fudoh's list, but we're talking over $10,000 usd. Maybe in another decade some of them will slip into the used market at reasonable prices.

[ZellSF]

Mind that DVDO Edge bug with some sources.

Oh sorry I meant to actually mention that and say it isn't a big a deal as some people make it to be, it isn't any more laggy than the Framemeister, a upscaler lots of people happily play games on, and only on some select systems. I don't think there are many unhappy DVDO Edge owners out there for that reason.

[orange808]

Mind that DVDO Edge bug with some sources.

Oh sorry I meant to actually mention that and say it isn't a big a deal as some people make it to be, it isn't any more laggy than the Framemeister, a upscaler lots of people happily play games on, and only on some select systems. I don't think there are many unhappy DVDO Edge owners out there for that reason.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Speak for yourself, there.

I'm okay with 20ms of delay for deinterlacing, that's great. The Framemeister shines there.

On the other hand, 20ms to scale a progressive image is disappointing. It's not terrible, but there's nothing special about it. There are multiple machines that can do that. Once you are willing to get around a frame and a half, there are other features like full 4:4:4 chroma and rotation to look at.