Turning 480i to 240p?

[Royal]

I want to convert select 480i only games to 240p, or at least display as 240p.

Will an Extron rgb interface work fine as long as I convert the component signal to rgb with a Garo?

If so, will any Extron work as long as they have the ddsp switch, or will I benefit from using a model with adjustable centering controls like the 201?

What device can I use to convert the RGBHV output back to component?

Will the above configuration passthrough 240p and 480p signals as well if I return everything to default settings?

The games I want to convert are "field-rendering" ps2 games (that doesn't offer a 480p mode) and some WiiWare games like Megaman 9 (which doesn't do 480p).
I'm using a multiformat CRT only.

[Guspaz]

Fudoh has covered this extensively:

http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

[Fudoh]

You can use the Extron interfaces with component from the PS2 or Wii to give this a try. It only looks good on a few selected titles though. 480p to 240p is the more solid approach.

[BazookaBen]

As far as field rendering goes, I'm pretty sure you should leave those in 480i if they're are actualy high-res games, like Virtua Fighter 4.

You can use the Extron interfaces with component from the PS2 or Wii to give this a try. It only looks good on a few selected titles though. 480p to 240p is the more solid approach.

Yeah, for example, Capcom's arcade compilations are not scaled 1:1 to 480i, so they don't look any better through an Extron.

[Namingway_PL]

I've tried this 480i -> 240p trick with the extron interfaces and didn't manage to get this to work.

I have a extron 160xi and 203Rxi. My monitor is a JVC DT-V1710CG. With the PS2 in RGB and DDSP off, the monitor emits a very scary sound, like it's overloading, With the DDSP on, everything is fine. In both cases the image is 480i.

PS2 in component and DDSP off - no image, and "sync out of range" appear's on the screen. DDSP on - works perfect.

I've also tried a MAME PC with my kramer vp-703sc scan converter (I don't have a VSC unit yet) and it was the same. DDSP off - scary sound, DDSP on - everything ok.

Both extron units are working exactly the same, so I don't think they are damaged in any way.




I was not lucky with the RGB interfaces but by accident, I did something similar with a Extron Crosspoint switcher, a PS1 and interlaced games like tekken 3.

I bought the crosspoint but I didn't had a proper C-sync cable to connect the PS1 to the switcher. I ordered one, but meanwhile hooked up the ps1 with some cables that I've had in stock. My setup looked like this:

[Modded PAL PS1] -> [cheap-ass RGB cable] -> [scart to d-sub VGA cable with a sync separator] -> [ VGA to 5x BNC computer cable] -> [crosspoint] -> [monitor] and the game was Tekken 3 ntsc-j.

When I connected four BNC plugs to the monitor ( RGB + the H sync plug), interlaced image looked normal, but I've had some problems with an unstable 240p image (due to the poor RGB cable I think). So I've also connected the V plug and for my surprise 240p was stable, but interlaced material appeared as "fake" 240p. At still images like the game mode select screen there is a lot of flickr, but when there is motion on the screen, the image actually lokks pretty good, very much like the real 240p, but it's not perfect.

I don't think this should work that way. Any thoughts?

[Royal]

You can use the Extron interfaces with component from the PS2 or Wii to give this a try. It only looks good on a few selected titles though. 480p to 240p is the more solid approach.

Don't I still need to convert the component signal to rgb, or will the Extron interface accept component through VGA?
It doesn't seem like the latter, judging from the manual.
http://media.extron.com/download/files/ ... _broA1.pdf

[Fudoh]

Don't I still need to convert the component signal to rgb, or will the Extron interface accept component through VGA?

it does. It's simply handled as RGB with Sync on Green.

[DoomsDave]

Don't I still need to convert the component signal to rgb, or will the Extron interface accept component through VGA?

it does. It's simply handled as RGB with Sync on Green.

Is this true for a 190 or any Extron interface? If so I wish I knew this before buying a Garo.

[Royal]

Don't I still need to convert the component signal to rgb, or will the Extron interface accept component through VGA?

it does. It's simply handled as RGB with Sync on Green.

Then a passive adapter like this should work fine.
https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-6-I ... ent+to+vga

So my current plan is:
Console outputting component ==> Startech adapter to VGA ==> Extron Interface ==> RGBHV BNC to VGA adapter ==> Multiformat CRT

This is assuming the SVGA inputs on my CRT will accept 15khz at all.
If not, then I'll be required to add another device to transcode RGBHV back to component.

[Fudoh]

yepp, your CRT must accept component video for this to work.

[BazookaBen]

Is this true for a 190 or any Extron interface? If so I wish I knew this before buying a Garo.

Yeah, and it even works with s-video as long as you route Y to the G input.

[strygo]

I want to convert select 480i only games to 240p, or at least display as 240p.

I experimented with a number of options that Fudoh covered. I found the Extron devices to be finicky and the results to be less than stellar on my PVM. I either needed to put up with visual distortion at the top of the image or adjust it out of view.

If you're not price sensitive, I recommend the Mimo Genius II. It really does produce better results. Compared to the Emotia, it can handle all of 240p/480i/480p to 240p. The Emotia on the other hand can only handle 480p to 240p.

[Royal]

So, since my last post, I had ordered an Extron 160xi; as well as a Startech component to VGA adapter (passive) and a thick BNC to VGA cable on ebay.

I have just finished several rounds of testing on my Proscan CRT. The results were NOT good.

After hooking up the Extron and other adapters, I plugged my Wii with component cables into the component adapter to VGA, then I plugged the VGA end of the BNC adapter cable
into the SVGA port titled "Digital TV In". In the manual, the port was advertised as an input for a Satellite receiver for up to 1080i signals. This is what convinced to venture forward
with buying the stuff to test with despite warnings. Bear in mind, the manual never stated that one could use 480P through anything other than the VGA ports, yet I have been doing
so with the component inputs, so I was expecting another miracle.

I switched DDSP to on, SOG on, and the other two switches to OFF. Then I turned on my Wii, and selected the input to "VGA2"

The Wii menu showed up in 480p...completely green. It's like the Startech adapter didn't passthrough anything other than the "Y" input of the component cable.
Switching the SOG switch did not change the picture.

I continued into the Wii settings, and changed the resolution from 480p to 480i. It was the same image, but warped at the very top.
I went back to the Wii main menu to confirm that it wasn't just my eyes.

I hit the DDSP switch to OFF, nothing changed.
I switched it back to on, and I think I was messing around with the Horizontal adjustment on the front when the TV simply stopped displaying an image.
I knew the Wii didn't turn off because the sound was just fine, but the TV was flashing "Unusable Signal"
Normally, that doesn't happen unless nothing is plugged into the input.

I then switched unplugged the Wii component cables from the adapter back to the component input on the tv.
The 480i image was just fine, in full color too.
Switched the resolution back to 480p.

Then, I plugged everything back into the extron, this time it kept saying "No Usable Signal" despite readjusting the settings back to where I started.
Even the audio from the Wii cable wasn't playing anymore.

So, I unplugged the Extron/Wire mess completely. I tried to see if the VGA port even worked anymore by hooking up a slightly older computer with Windows 8 installed.
The image came out an interlaced/duplicated mess. I initially thought the computer didn't detect a native resolution of the CRT.

So, I plugged in my laptop to the VGA port, and manually set the resolution to 800 x 600 (a resolution that the manual states the CRT supports).
Only a black screen showed up, and I heard a faint squeaky sound coming from the CRT. Upon unplugging the VGA cable, it says "No Usable Signal"

All of my other consoles still work in their respective ports, including my Wii in component.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In conclusion, it didn't work, and I might have permanently ruined one of the VGA ports on my TV. Granted, I didn't test ANYTHING through the other VGA port
for comparison, and probably won't won't until I move, or get a Toro VGA box for my Dreamcast

There might still be a chance it can work if I output RGBs from the Extron and convert that signal back to component, but honestly due to the events that just transpired,
plus the fact that the cheapest RGB to component transcoder costs as much as the Extron/Wire mess to begin with......yeah...
I think I'm done trying to convert a limited number of 480i games to 240p.
I don't feel confident in ever connecting an Extron to my CRT; it's a great CRT too, so it makes the possible results of this testing even more frustrating.

The total cost of the Extron and adapters was less than $40 total. The Extron itself came with the power adapter.
Overall, not bad. Certainly not the worst waste of money I made in life. The Extron seller even offer returns, so I can get some of my money back.
I hope someone learns from my experience and never follow in my footsteps.

TL;DR: Didn't listen. F*cked up. Don't do what I did.

[Fudoh]

The fact, that your TV displayed a green image using 480p from your Wii through the Extron, means that the port is (or was) just meant for RGB colorspace, not YPbPr. The "Y" cable (the one you connected to the Green input of the Extron) just carries Luma without any color information. Your TV tried to interpretate it as Green though.

I'm positive that your input isn't blown. You just messed with the sync timings by adjusting the shift knob on the Extron and the Extron remembers these settings on a per input/signal basis. You can try again with your PC, but you should set a custom resolution beforehand, e.g. 480p at 60Hz and make sure you get that signal before connecting to the input.

What I don't understand though is: if your TV has a component input, why did you want to try the Wii on that particular input ?
The extron doesn't convert your colorspace. You input YUV, you get YUV.

You should try it on the component input. Connect the Wii to the Extron and then ONLY connect one single coax cable from the Y/G output of the Extron to the Y input of your TV's component connector. NOW you can test your Extron's dip switches in both 480i and 480p. At this point your picture will b/w only, but you can add color later.

If your TV adds digital processing to 15khz signals (many multi format CRTs do), then the 480i/240p conversion on the Extron won't work.

[Royal]

What I don't understand though is: if your TV has a component input, why did you want to try the Wii on that particular input ?
The extron doesn't convert your colorspace. You input YUV, you get YUV.

You should try it on the component input. Connect the Wii to the Extron and the ONLY connect one single coax cable from the Y/G output of the Extron to the Y input of your TV's component connector. NOW you can test your Extron's dip switches in both 480i and 480p. At this point your picture will b/w only, but you can add color later.

If your TV adds digital processing to 15khz signals (many multi format CRTs do), then the 480i/240p conversion on the Extron won't work.

This is my mistake. This whole time I thought I was converting YPbPr to RGB.

[DJtheGamer]

Sorry for upping this thread but I have a question. I have a Sony PS2, Official Component Cable, Extron RXI 203, and Extron Emotia Plus. How would I set all this up to achieve 480p to 240p?

[Fudoh]

You can't (properly) combine these into one setup for 240p output from all input variations at the same time.

Your Emotia Plus is a processor that converts 480p RGBHV into 240p and does a very good job by doing so. To connect your PS2 directly to it you need a transcoder (component to RGBHV). In RGB mode your PS2 does output 480p RGsB over the component cable as well. You can convert this to 480p RGBHV using your Extron 203. The only problem here is that you won't get any picture through the processing chain until you actually switch your PS2 into 480p mode.

Running the PS2 in component mode you can run the signal into the Extron (with the Y-cable into the G input) and this way convert 480i YPbPr into 240p YPbPr, but the results of this will vary depending your display.

[DJtheGamer]

You can't (properly) combine these into one setup for 240p output from all input variations at the same time.

Your Emotia Plus is a processor that converts 480p RGBHV into 240p and does a very good job by doing so. To connect your PS2 directly to it you need a transcoder (component to RGBHV). In RGB mode your PS2 does output 480p RGsB over the component cable as well. You can convert this to 480p RGBHV using your Extron 203. The only problem here is that you won't get any picture through the processing chain until you actually switch your PS2 into 480p mode.

Running the PS2 in component mode you can run the signal into the Extron (with the Y-cable into the G input) and this way convert 480i YPbPr into 240p YPbPr, but the results of this will vary depending your display.

What would be the best Component to RGBHV Converter out there?

So the setup should go Console>Extron Crosspoint>RXI>Emotia>Converter>Extron Crosspoint>Monitors?

Can I use the ps2 official comment cable for RGB or would I need a third party cable?

[Fudoh]

Are your monitors at the end of the chain capable of displaying RGB and component video or are they RGB-only ?

Mind you, it's a VERY VERY complex setup. It involves creating loops on your crosspoints to be able to change the processing path between 240p, 480i and 480p from the source.

So the setup should go Console>Extron Crosspoint>RXI>Emotia>Converter>Extron Crosspoint>Monitors?

you can't go RGB from a PS2 into a Crosspoint using RGB, because the PS2 doesn't provide a c-sync output.

[Guspaz]

Doesn't gbscontrol support all of this? Can't you just plug the PS2 into the GBS8200 and then the GBS8200 into the monitor? And throw a switch in there if required? Unless I'm missing something, it seems massively less complicated than that crazy long pipeline you're talking about.

[Fudoh]

Does the GBS do 480i to 240p yet ?
I assume the monitors at the end are 15khz only, so you'd still need matrix switch. It's not this much easier.

I have a JVC 1950C and a Sony 20L2 and both have RGB and also support component.

You can route your PS2's output into a crosspoint as long as your PS2 is set to component. For RGB only 480p would work.

PS2 -> (via component) -> Crosspoint

For 240p signals: Crosspoint -> (via component) -> monitor
For 480i signals: Crosspoint -> (via component) -> monitor
For 480i to 240p using the interface: Crosspoint -> (via component) -> 203 -> Crosspoint (same machine, different input) -> via component) -> monitor
For 480p to 240p using the Emotia without a transcoder: Crosspoint -> (via component) -> transcoder -> (via RGBHV) -> Emotia -> via RGBS -> monitor
For 480p to 240p using the Emotia but without a transcoder (set the PS2 to RGB instead): Crosspoint -> (via component) -> 203 (which converts from RGsB to RGBHV) -> via RGBHV -> Emotia -> via RGBS -> monitor.

[Guspaz]

I had seen this long article about doing 480i to 240p with gbscontrol, so yes: https://medium.com/rgb-inside/gbs-8200- ... 5d3b6907be

AFAIK it can also do passthrough and transcoding, so as far as I can tell, every single input/resolution you've listed could be connected to a gbs and get 240p output, but it's hard to say because gbs-control has zero real documentation, not even a list of supported features.

[kitty666cats]

GBScontrol can most certainly do 480i to 240p, in fact it's the ideal way for downscaling RGBS (480p RGBS gives me video issues, but 480i RGBS via a scan converter gives me no trouble).

YPbPr is less finicky, I have had zero issues with native 480i (from a PS2 or a Laserdisc player fed through a DVR) to 240p YPbPr, but I forget if I've tested it with 480p to 240p.

[Fudoh]

So, how exactly does the GBS convert 480i to 240p ? Is each field converted into a frame ? Is it running a deinterlacing pass first and then a downscaling pass afterwards ?

[strayan]

The last I read rama suggested there were problems with 480i to 240p conversion: viewtopic.php?p=1400592#p1400592

[kitty666cats]

The last I read rama suggested there were problems with 480i to 240p conversion: viewtopic.php?p=1400592#p1400592

No troubles on my end, if the 480i is 'csync' RGB, or component (I also have a clockgen installed, those are crucial!). 480i via 480p into a scan converter does the trick for me wonderfully

[jd213]

Was interested in playing Megaman 9/10 in 240p, would it be better to use downscaling on the Wii or PS3 version, or can the Steam versions be output at 240p using CRT Emudriver or something?