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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:11 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1397
Maybe there's a composite trace we could cut to get a jailbar-free image, much like the Sega Genesis. I wonder where exactly the noise is originating from in the Nintendo 64 hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:11 am 


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Location: Mountain View, CA
Just a reminder that Paper Mario, Mario Party 3, etc. love to enable this stupid software noise filter on top of everything.

If the presence of composite video elsewhere in the system is coupling in noise to the RGB board's outputs, then there is a critical problem with the installation or the board itself.
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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:37 am 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 1440
Location: Australia
Can someone measure the resistance each output color has to ground?
Im concerned that my board is somewhat faulty as i get odd readings and Tim never responded to my questions.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:38 pm 


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Location: Australia
This is doing my head in..

Installed Bortis N64RGB v2 board and the noise issue is about twice as noticeable as Tims board.
https://youtu.be/MPFY9RIhreo
Its worth noting that this area on the Mario64 screen does not have such a high contrast ratio with Tims board which makes it harder to see.

That should be a solid screen but there is noise everywhere. Just as bad in game. I could barely record the issue to show you guys with Tims board but bortis board has amplified it enough to record.

I dont have an early N64 with stock RGB amp to compare but i feel that it wouldn't have this issue.

Borti thinks it's a game software issue with how composite was used to blend.
I'm not so sure about that but then again I have no idea....


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:38 am 


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Syntax wrote:
This is doing my head in..

Installed Bortis N64RGB v2 board and the noise issue is about twice as noticeable as Tims board.
https://youtu.be/MPFY9RIhreo
Its worth noting that this area on the Mario64 screen does not have such a high contrast ratio with Tims board which makes it harder to see.
yeah that looks similar to what I see while in 15bit mode on Tims board, or atleast you can see it more clearly. Its to hard for me to see when not in 15bit mode.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:27 am 


Yes, in most games this effect is clearly visible in 15bit mode. There are not that many games making usage of the 15bit mode. But that's another story I want to look into in future...

Here is the reason why I think that this 'noise' is softwaredriven:
I've tested three consoles with two PSUs:
  • japanese N64 with N64A
  • PAL N64 with N64RGBv2
  • japanese N64 with UltraHDMI and RGB output via THS7374

All consoles have these effect at the output (with the N64A and UltraHDMI it is clearly visible with GammaBoost enabled). Also the RGB output of the console with UltraHDMI (which uses the stock RGB-encoder) has this effect. Also VI-DeBlur makes this more clear visible.

As the N64 is mainly meant to be used with composite video, I guess that this effect is used next to VI-Blur to make low brightness transitions in a solid-color surfaces more smooth. This works well with composite video on a CRT. But it does not look as it should in RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:55 am 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
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Location: Australia
Forgive my stupidity but why has this never been an issue with emulators?(that I'm aware of)

Im semi amazed that it shows in HDMI mode, i thought more people would of mentioned something about it already considering it's noticeable on popular titles.
It only came to my attention after acquiring an OSSC.

When I'm playing Mario 64 it blankets the screen and much more noticeable than when I was using Tims R2R board.
Does the v2 have a slight gamma boost?
Just trying to figure out why it's less noticeable on Tims board.

Do you have a v1 R2R to test Borti?

I have to reflash my board and fix that switch issue before I give any more feedback to ensure we are both on the same page.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:50 am 


To be honest; I don't use emulators at all. Also, as far as I know N64 emulators are not supposed to be accurate.
Although I quickly downloaded Project64 along with a ROM of SM64. The background looks super smooth. You cannot distinguish between the pixels there. So I doubt that the color depth is 21bit more likely 32bit.
Don't forget, with 21bit the color depth is highly limited.

Regarding your questions:
- No, there is no Gamma correction applied. This is something I also cannot do with the N64RGB series (at least I don't have an idea how)
- No, I don't have a N64RGBv1 here.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:41 pm 


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Has anyone tried the GS AA codes to see if it changes the problem in any way?

I tried it on Mario64, it does have a affect on the jumpy pixels but I think whatever they are turning off needs to be left alone, it looks bad. I tested on Mario64. It was interesting to play with, mixing it with the settings on the rgb board.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:45 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 640
Today I replaced all the caps in my N64 (but not the power supply, turns out mine is not a zebra model, so the kit I got is useless). I also shortened the ribbon cable for the N64RGB. No difference. So don't bother replacing your caps, they are probably fine and are an enormous pain to replace. I've also, just for funsies, replaced the cable going from the N64RGB to the output with a quad-core Canare mic cable, so the ground is connected to the shielding to minimize interference. It makes my mod look ugly and also made no difference. Switching sync from luma to c-sync also makes no difference. I am starting to think this is just how the N64 is.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:45 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1397
thebigcheese wrote:
Today I replaced all the caps in my N64 (but not the power supply, turns out mine is not a zebra model, so the kit I got is useless). I also shortened the ribbon cable for the N64RGB. No difference. So don't bother replacing your caps, they are probably fine and are an enormous pain to replace. I've also, just for funsies, replaced the cable going from the N64RGB to the output with a quad-core Canare mic cable, so the ground is connected to the shielding to minimize interference. It makes my mod look ugly and also made no difference. Switching sync from luma to c-sync also makes no difference. I am starting to think this is just how the N64 is.

Well, we can do a process of elimination. It's not the caps or the cables. Let's see what lse it could be.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:13 pm 


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As Borti said it seems to be a software issue. Not sure if there is a work around.
I thought Bortis board showed it more than Tims but i think my board I have here is stuck in 15bit mode and that shows the noise super easy. Need to reflash.


When replacing surface mount caps the easiest way is cut the caps in half, then the plastic and base pull off and you have direct access to the legs. No pcb trace strain.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:20 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 640
Syntax wrote:
As Borti said it seems to be a software issue. Not sure if there is a work around.
I thought Bortis board showed it more than Tims but i think my board I have here is stuck in 15bit mode and that shows the noise super easy. Need to reflash.


When replacing surface mount caps the easiest way is cut the caps in half, then the plastic and base pull off and you have direct access to the legs. No pcb trace strain.


That's the easy part, it's putting new ones on that's annoying.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:58 pm 


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Location: Mountain View, CA
Can I get clear repro steps for the noise, to check against my board? I do not recall seeing any noise like that on Mario 64 during my testing.
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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:44 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1074
Location: Toronto, Canada
mikejmoffitt wrote:
Can I get clear repro steps for the noise, to check against my board? I do not recall seeing any noise like that on Mario 64 during my testing.


play paper mario. 5s in there's a white movie theatre screen. the solid white has horizontal random noise in it.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:49 am 


This kind of 'noise', which is meant by leonk, is not a problem if the DAC-IC is supplied with 5V.

What syntax lately mentioned is some 'noise' in i.e. visible in Super Mario 64 in the selection screen (background gradients in the yellow)


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:45 pm 


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Posts: 312
borti4938 wrote:
viletim wrote:
Low value resistors would help prevent reflections on the video data lines. The problem is they need to be installed on the source end of the ribbon cable to be effective.


You are right - my fault! I was thinking of my modding board where I put them on the board to have it more convenient for installation. More effective they are at source. This can be clearly measured. Although they are also (measurable) helpful to have them on board if one have not them at source.

Could these resistors perhaps be added to the MAV-NUS / AVDC-NUS breakout adapter boards?

borti4938 wrote:
Heat might become an issue if you also supply the analog part with 3.3V (which one have to do with viletim kits and my N64RGBv1 if you don't want to cut traces).

Is there any simple method/trace cuts that could allow the analog section on the N64RGBv1 to be connected to 5V?


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:36 pm 


Link83 wrote:
Could these resistors perhaps be added to the MAV-NUS / AVDC-NUS breakout adapter boards?


Yes, they can. I do have something on the pipeline.

Link83 wrote:
borti4938 wrote:
Heat might become an issue if you also supply the analog part with 3.3V (which one have to do with viletim kits and my N64RGBv1 if you don't want to cut traces).

Is there any simple method/trace cuts that could allow the analog section on the N64RGBv1 to be connected to 5V?


I have decided to go for this:
https://oshpark.com/projects/ofIFYk5I
https://github.com/borti4938/n64rgb/tre ... c/PowerReg


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:22 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1074
Location: Toronto, Canada
Wow Borti! Good job .. anyone try this out? If this really solves the problem, we should ask Tim to update his PCB to incorporate this fix.

Can you explain what this means:

"Solder the PCB under the power switch of the N64 mainboard (upper part) such that the PCB ranges to the inner side."

I don't understand these instructions. :(


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:22 am 


Haha, I hadn’t had that much time to think about it a long time yesterday. Keep in mind English is not my native language so I may have used a wrong term or so. Anyway, I wanted to push the small PCB into public before I’m away from home today.

It should be obvious if you have the N64 mainboard and the small PCB in front of you. But I will make a picture to clarify that once I’m back.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:39 am 



Joined: 08 Mar 2017
Posts: 1370
I've noticed a lot of random noise on my early model Japanese N64 with regular THS7314 RGB mod.
It seems to affect most games, but not all of them.
Just wanted to ask if that's just normal for the console. Thanks :)


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:00 am 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 1440
Location: Australia
I'm guessing the amp you have is powered from 5v.

If it was powered off the 3.3v id point my finger there.

Would love to see what the simple rgb mod looks like.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:35 pm 


Typically the THS7314/7316/7374 amp mods are powered from multi out pin 10, which is 5V. Also the stock RGB encoder has 5V analog power supply.
"Random noise" is quite normal in most games. If you feel that it is too much, you may consider a recap of console and PSU.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:47 am 



Joined: 08 Mar 2017
Posts: 1370
The video amplifier is 5V powered.
Thanks for your input guys, it is just the games.
Wonder Project J2 in particular has the whole intro sequence looking like it was a badly encoded video :p

Syntax:
It's the same install you can easily find via Google. Just the amp taking in the RGB and passing the output to the MultiOut.
Resistors are installed as necessary and the video levels looked good on the scope.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:14 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 640
Having a little trouble following all the changes, so if I might ask a stupid question. It sounds to me like the idea here is that the 3.3 volts that is used by the N64 RGB is a "dirty" power source, hence the noise. However, pulling power from a 5 volt source does not cause this issue. Therefore, since most of the simpler mods just connect to the multiout and pull 5 volt power, they are not prone to this same noise. Is that correct? So if one was annoyed by this noise and not terribly interested in the deblur offered on N64 RGB AND has a compatible model of N64, the best solution would be to install one of the simple mods instead of an N64 RGB? If one already has an N64 RGB installed, the hope is that borti's solution will fix it?


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:25 pm 



Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Posts: 9
thebigcheese wrote:
Having a little trouble following all the changes, so if I might ask a stupid question. It sounds to me like the idea here is that the 3.3 volts that is used by the N64 RGB is a "dirty" power source, hence the noise. However, pulling power from a 5 volt source does not cause this issue. Therefore, since most of the simpler mods just connect to the multiout and pull 5 volt power, they are not prone to this same noise. Is that correct? So if one was annoyed by this noise and not terribly interested in the deblur offered on N64 RGB AND has a compatible model of N64, the best solution would be to install one of the simple mods instead of an N64 RGB? If one already has an N64 RGB installed, the hope is that borti's solution will fix it?


I think that more or less sums it up, though even if you aren't interested in the deblur you may have to use viletim's mod anyway, since the simpler mods do not work with later N64 revisions, and viletim's mod works with all revisions.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:55 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1074
Location: Toronto, Canada
Quick update ..

- Oshpark and Digikey finally delivered all the components to build the 12V -> 3.3V by-pass Borti designed (Thanks Borti!)
- I installed it into a newer N64RGB modded system (that uses the -08 board - hence requires the fine pitch adapter)

Here are my findings:

- PVM tested clean
- Moved to XRGB mini using the latest FBX 5X profile and latest firmware
- Just for the heck of it, I left the short GND wire off - sure enough - lots of ground loop / jailbars
- Added the wire back and was surprised to still see some faint vertical lines!!!
- Installed Borti's latest IGR firmware (March 9, 2018 build date) - no change
- removed the 3.3V bypass wire, and installed the missing 3.3V source from DAC - jail bars still there!!
- my personal N64 (-03 board) is super clean

I think these fine pitch DAC adapters add extra noise. :(

The most SHOCKING finding is that all this vertical noise, is only native to XRGB mini!! I recently purchased an OSSC, and to my shock, it looks BEAUTIFUL in 5X mode.

Tomorrow I'll try Paper Mario on OSSC/XRGB to see if the by pass makes a difference.

Here's my post on twitter if you want to see what the vertical noise on XRGB mini looks like.

https://twitter.com/leonkiriliuk/status ... 5540374528


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:29 am 


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The mini has been found to require a LPF for the Saturn, maybe its the same with N64?


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:28 am 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 640
Also worth mentioning that the Framemeister is known to be somewhat noisy by comparison to the OSSC, so that doesn't surprise me terribly. However, the issues I've seen with my N64 occur on my PVM, too, so no scaler involved there.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:03 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1074
Location: Toronto, Canada
vertical lines noise solved. I lifted the 2 ground pins in the multiAV, isolated, tied together and connected to gnd out on n64rgb. The last few faint lines were squashed by shortening the extra ground wire to about 3cm or less!

If the xrgb only had an adjustable lpf as the ossc does. it would be much better.


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