Laserdisc composite deinterlacing upscaling and comb filter?

[gmipf]

Hello everyone, I just got a Pioneer CLD-A100 Laseractive Player last week. I want to improve the movie portion of this device. For the first time I only want to watch NTSC Laserdiscs on my old PAL CRT in colour. So I have decided to search a composite video processor and found some options. I could get the DVDO iScan VP20 cheap, but it lacks analogue RGB output, is there anything similar and not too expensive? The VP30 and VP50 can output analogue signals but cant find anything inexpensive. Are 300$+ worth for a VP30 or VP50 or are there any alternatives to these devices?

In the future I also want to watch Laserdiscs on HDTV. I have read about deinterlacing, upscaling and a good comb filter is a must have. Unfortunately I did not quite understand the comb filter. In some players there is raw composite output signal and on another players I have to turn the internal comb filter off so I can use an external comb filter. How it works on the CLD-A100?

Which video processor have a good combination of the comb filter, deinterlacing and upscaling or is it better to get different devices for each tasks? I have read the DVDO devices doesn’t have good comb filters. Or what would be the best bang for buck all in one video processor?

Again: It is only for Laserdisc movies, for the gaming portion I will do a RGB mod in the future, I already own the OSSC for lowest possible input lag. But if someone have a tip for the RGB mod, I would be happy too.

Possibly useful infos/equipments:

• I want to use the Pioneer LG-1 in the future to enable LD-G on japanese LDs.
  I have the Audio Authority model 9A62 and 9A60.
  I have an OSSC.

And sorry for the many questions and my bad English.

[Fudoh]

I could get the DVDO iScan VP20 cheap, but it lacks analogue RGB output, is there anything similar and not too expensive?

laserdisc is a native composite format, so you won't find a player that outputs in RGB. Would be cool of course, since it would solve your comb filter problem at the same time

The VP20 without ABT102 uses the SiI502 or 503 processor which isn't great for handling 480i material. It's movie mode is solid, but it's video mode is very weak. Also it's comb filter isn't any good.

Also I don't see how a VP20 would help you in getting a color picture on your PAL CRT. For that you can simply use a composite NTSC to PAL60 converter. Those small boxes that were sold with import video game systems in the late 80s and early 90s.

In the future I also want to watch Laserdiscs on HDTV. I have read about deinterlacing, upscaling and a good comb filter is a must have. Unfortunately I did not quite understand the comb filter.

the comb filter splits the chroma signal (the color information) from the luma signals (the black and white information).

In some players there is raw composite output signal and on another players I have to turn the internal comb filter off so I can use an external comb filter. How it works on the CLD-A100?

The A-100 doesn't have s-video, so you don't run through the extra processing.

Which video processor have a good combination of the comb filter, deinterlacing and upscaling or is it better to get different devices for each tasks? I have read the DVDO devices doesn’t have good comb filters. Or what would be the best bang for buck all in one video processor?

that REALLY depends on the kind of money you want to spend. But with a mediocre LD player such as the A100 I wouldn't jump for any high end solutions. Solid Processor for their comb filter AND their linedoubling are the earlier Faroudja based processors.

If you want more you need a better LD player, an external comb filter (e.g. a Pioneer DVD recorder), a denoiser (an Algolith unit) and an upscaler like a newer DVDO. A solid all in processor that gives you a good comb filter, solid deinterlacing and good upscaling is the CRYSTALIO II.

Essential reading: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video- ... loves.html

[gmipf]

laserdisc is a native composite format, so you won't find a player that outputs in RGB. Would be cool of course, since it would solve your comb filter problem at the same time

The VP20 without ABT102 uses the SiI502 or 503 processor which isn't great for handling 480i material. It's movie mode is solid, but it's video mode is very weak. Also it's comb filter isn't any good.

Also I don't see how a VP20 would help you in getting a color picture on your PAL CRT. For that you can simply use a composite NTSC to PAL60 converter. Those small boxes that were sold with import video game systems in the late 80s and early 90s.

Yes, laserdiscs are pressed as composite, but I meant the output of the VP20, if it could output RGB like VP30 or VP50, I could use the analogue out to use the RGB 21pin SCART input of my CRT. I also have one of those cheap china HDMI to SCART (composite) adapters like this. So I could use the dirty way LD player -> VP20 -> HDMI2SCART -> CRT TV.

If you want more you need a better LD player, an external comb filter (e.g. a Pioneer DVD recorder), a denoiser (an Algolith unit) and an upscaler like a newer DVDO. A solid all in processor that gives you a good comb filter, solid deinterlacing and good upscaling is the CRYSTALIO II.

Good to know, I also wanted to get the CRYSTALIO II someday. Only because of the 480p processing. What is a "fair" second hand price in your thought for the CRYSTALIO II? And What I have to look for, if I buy one? Are there different hardware revisions and/or some bugs to aware of?

[Fudoh]

Yes, laserdiscs are pressed as composite, but I meant the output of the VP20, if it could output RGB like VP30 or VP50, I could use the analogue out to use the RGB 21pin SCART input of my CRT.

no, you couldn't, since the VP20/30's minimum scan rate is 31khz, so you would only be able to output 480p which your TV won't display.

I also have one of those cheap china HDMI to SCART (composite) adapters like this. So I could use the dirty way LD player -> VP20 -> HDMI2SCART -> CRT TV.

But if it's only composite over scart only you'd again end up with a black / white image. Unless there's some PAL conversion going on somewhere, but then the motion would take a hit due to the framerate conversion.

Good to know, I also wanted to get the CRYSTALIO II someday. Only because of the 480p processing. What is a "fair" second hand price in your thought for the CRYSTALIO II?

600-700 EUR is reasonable.

And What I have to look for, if I buy one? Are there different hardware revisions and/or some bugs to aware of?

the PSUs on these all die, so you will have to replace it.

[gmipf]

But if it's only composite over scart only you'd again end up with a black / white image. Unless there's some PAL conversion going on somewhere, but then the motion would take a hit due to the framerate conversion.

I see, so those video processors even wouldn’t solve my CRT problem. Do you know any solid device that do NTSC to PAL60? Or any simple composite to RGB transcoding device?

EDIT: According to RetroRGB the Extron CD 400 is a good composite to RGB transcoder, but also difficult to find. So I have decided to get one of those cheap china converters like this: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00JLGPLAI

[Fudoh]

So I have decided to get one of those cheap china converters like this: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00JLGPLAI

that's probably a bad idea, since you don't want any framerate conversion and this one seems to convert into genuine PAL, not PAL60 (which is just NTSC with a modified chroma frequency).

[gmipf]

that's probably a bad idea, since you don't want any framerate conversion and this one seems to convert into genuine PAL, not PAL60 (which is just NTSC with a modified chroma frequency).

You are right, exactly this experience I have got with my HDMI to SCART adapter for a moment ago. I have connected the adapter with a PS3 TEST unit configured as USA Region on HDMI out and the CRT TV over SCART (composite) to the adapter. The TV had always colour and was always on 576i 50Hz, I have tested 480p to 1080p, the output signal was always the same. So I think I give up and don’t use Laserdiscs with PAL CRTs. But alternatively for the first time I could get the VP20 and hook it up to my HDMI 1080p PC monitor. I think under 100$ for the VP20 is not too bad? Or can you recommend/offer something better for 100$?

[Fudoh]

good deal, don't worry about it - except for getting hooked on VPs and wanting more...

[gmipf]

Thank you very much for your guidance and wish you a good night.

[goji]

Just to mention, Laseractive can be s-video modded for Ld playback

[gmipf]

Yes, I know. But I think using the composite out with an external video processor is better.

[goji]

I'm interested in your Tests as I also have this great machine .

Perhaps the xrgb mini is already a good thing for composite sources ?

Like you I'm thinking about the LD part, i'll try the rgb mod for the game part.

[Steamflogger Boss]

I know Fudoh said this already but if you really want to watch movies on LD, I'd recommend getting a better player.

If you want a good scaler, a DVDO Duo (budget option) or higher end Lumagen would be a great choice. Those Lumagens are rather expensive though.

The LA is really cool, but it sucks for playing LDs.

[gmipf]

Last week I have finally got a Crystalio II VPS-3800. Now I have time to test it the first time. I would like to know what the difference is between the standard v2.10 and the v2.10pd firmware? And where I can get the firmware files?

[Steamflogger Boss]

Last week I have finally got a Crystalio II VPS-3800. Now I have time to test it the first time. I would like to know what the difference is between the standard v2.10 and the v2.10pd firmware? And where I can get the firmware files?

Wow. So jealous. Where did you get it?

[Zappyraccoon]

Last week I have finally got a Crystalio II VPS-3800. Now I have time to test it the first time. I would like to know what the difference is between the standard v2.10 and the v2.10pd firmware? And where I can get the firmware files?

If I recall correctly v2.10pd was the projection design version. Created mainly to be used with a specific projector and the Crystalio II. Correct me if I'm wrong but it was advised to switch to non-projection design firmware for normal use. Fudoh would know more.

[gmipf]

Wow. So jealous. Where did you get it?

Ebay Auction

[Zappyraccoon]

Wow. So jealous. Where did you get it?

Ebay Auction

Oh you were the one who won that. Congrats!

[gmipf]

Wow. So jealous. Where did you get it?

Ebay Auction

Oh you were the one who won that. Congrats!

Yes, thank you

[Fudoh]

If I recall correctly v2.10pd was the projection design version. Created mainly to be used with a specific projector and the Crystalio II. Correct me if I'm wrong but it was advised to switch to non-projection design firmware for normal use. Fudoh would know more.

yes, that's right. I think the PD version offers some kind of projector control through RS232.

Ebay Auction

not cheap though. I guess I should test some more processors, so we can find something with as good upscaling but at a more considerate price point.

[gmipf]

not cheap though. I guess I should test some more processors, so we can find something with as good upscaling but at a more considerate price point.

Yes, but considering the rarity I wanted to get it definitely.

Do you have the firmware files? I can't find them.

[Fudoh]

Here you go:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/dr59oh

And the update instructions:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ds8pga

[gmipf]

Here you go:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/dr59oh

And the update instructions:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ds8pga

Thank you very much.

[holering]

Whoa lots of bad info here like most forums. Maybe I shouldn't speak lol...

[s]Stay away fromb comb filters with laserdisc! Believe it or not, laserdisc players implement a slightly custom design which doesn't work with standard comb filters.[/s]

[s]Only use a notch filter. I'm not kidding either.[/s]

Basically, despite being proper NTSC 480i, the resulting image gets imposed with ugly edge halos. The same thing happens with 20th century video game consoles whether RF or CVBS. I'm not so sure how PAL content responds but it might be similar.

[s]This is why most LD players with svideo output include an option to disable y/c separation or the intensity of the comb-filter, in case the image isn't output properly.[/s]

Here's a good example with what is some of the best comb filtering via the ati theatre 750:


Very ugly halos spreading from left edge of screen which shouldn't exist. Usually this happens from over sharpening, but this actually happens from comb filtering!

Unfortunately it's hard to avoid this problem [s]since everything has a comb filter (including svhs and other consoles). The only way to avoid it is making sure the hardware definitely has a way to force the comb filter into notch mode, or use an external notch filter into desired output (svideo, rgb etc).[/s] Or use a laserdisc player with its own custom svideo output (this may actually be the safest and best quality choice believe it or not).

[s]Comb filters only work with DVD players unfortunately.[/s]

[s]Only use a notch filter with laserdisc and 20th century video game consoles,[/s] or use the LD players built-in svideo output and double check results. [S]Avoid comb filters like the plague with LD and 20th cent. video game consoles.[/S]

edit 06242021

Maybe I can't say this right. Well it turns out this problem can be avoided by softening the image just enough that the halos disappear. Fortunately most programs have such a filter, including flat panel displays. This seems like the best resolution since some detail is still lost with notch mode comb filtering. Sorry for misinformation.

[bobrocks95]

Hmmm, I don't have anything too useful to add, but I will say my LD player has those edge halos via composite into my Sony CRT with a 3D comb filter... I just assumed it needed a recap though.

[Fudoh]

This is why most LD players with svideo output include an option to disable y/c separation or the intensity of the comb-filter, in case the image isn't output properly.

the reason why players have this option is because their composite output is usually a recombined s-video output. So when using composite you can disable the CF to avoid having the signal run through the CF just to get recombined moments later.

Comb filters only work with DVD players unfortunately.

DVD is not a composite signal. No point in using a CF here.

And for reference, that's my LD player through an external comb filter:

1:1 resolution capture: http://pms.hazard-city.de/x9_pio_5.jpg
1:2 resolution capture: http://pms.hazard-city.de/toy_x9_composite.jpg

[FinalBaton]

holering -_-
come on man,


don't throw acusations like this in the air. Fudoh has been actively testing and researching video gear and the science behind video formats/processors for 15 years now(maybe more?). He's extremely knowledgeable but more importantly he has hands-on experience with a tons and tons of video players, displays and scalers/processors/comb filters and what have you.

You can't just waltz in here and say the guy knows nuttin' come on man be real

[Steamflogger Boss]

Lots of big LD people talk about comb filters too. But I am sure they are all wrong.

[Fudoh]

The halos visible on his screenshot on top might be caused by a termination problem. Reminds of what you can run into when you don't terminate your monitor's passthrough outputs.

[holering]

Here's some comparison shots. This's the Japanese Mermaid Laserdisc (LSTD01309). Linux + PVR-150 with self hacked module-driver, cx25840ctl program (direct hardware access: change c.f. settings and disable agc+chroma agc etc) and HM12 output (hauppauge custom yv12) to ffv1.

Kramer FC-10D LEFT | notch filter from capture card RIGHT





Notch filter on right side clearly is better. Seems like there's more definition from the Kramer but it's just corrupt frequency along with ugly halos hugging left side of screen (they kind of appear on other edges). Kramer FC-10D is a really good C.F. but like almost every comb filter, only works with "standard" 480i cvbs frequency (xbox 360, wii etc). I'll probably post cvbs from Panasonic DMR-ES10 which doesn't have this problem. What's odd is you can apply a spatial blur filter to the kramer side and it starts to look close to the notch output, but then some definition is lost. Also notice the broken dot crawl above manchester codes on Kramer.

Most professionals may say the Philips SAA713x with 3D comb filter (one of the first PCI capture cards with 3D C.F.) avoids this problem while having a very soft output but don't know. Actually I've tried a similar card I have (Kworld PlusTV ATSC 115) with SAA7135H with Sega Saturn and svideo, and it also has soft output without halos, but haven't tried cvbs or with laserdisc. It works with FlyTV2000 but not sure if the chroma AGC is disabled with standard AGC (I always get blooming and crushed out images with AGC when speedrunning games so keep it off, but chroma agc might be another problem).

I'm wondering if the easycap USB legacy Linux driver allows fully disabling AGC and Chroma AGC on the EASYCAP USB device which should have the SAA7115. This would solve my speed running problems without being a huge pain in the butt.

Generally the best comb filters are probably 2D Faroudja, Extron, Crystallio, etc. But with laserdisc it's going to require a different C.F. besides the standard type.

Thought I saw some D.I.Y. schematics for cvbs notch filters.



@FinalBaton: What Fudoh says is what Fudoh says but generally he's (she?) got some high end equipment from the sounds of it.


EDIT:
For reference the Panasonic Dmres10 I mentioned does impose the same problem on laserdisc, I meant to say comb filtering the cvbs from the DMRes10 itself doesn't.