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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:54 pm 


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Terraonion have published an updated guide with more accessible solder points:

https://forums.terraonion.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=133


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:59 pm 



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I've completed the mod via the TO method on the back of the board and it works perfectly.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:22 pm 


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I wouldn't say more 'accessible' solder points, but rather instead 'safer' ones for novices. I find tack-soldering to the side of a resistor much easier than tack-soldering to a tiny via. But as I said, the bottom method reduces that chance of a novice fucking it up.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:39 pm 


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An old arcade tech once gave me some advice about soldering directly to components, he said ‘try to avoid it as much as possible’.

It doesn’t matter if your skills are high enough to do it successfully, there are cleaner non-destructive connections you can access. Of course if you have no choice then it’s fine, but it should be avoided because it makes future servicing a pain if that component or that circuit needs replacing. Of course, Arcade techs are all about saving as much time and repair hassle as possible.

Personally, I saw the previous tutorial and immediately thought people would mess it up. That’s why I started probing for alternative connections but what TO provide was perfect. The new method is indeed better, but FBX still gets the kudos for his work in sharing his findings.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:07 pm 


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opt2not wrote:
An old arcade tech once gave me some advice about soldering directly to components, he said ‘try to avoid it as much as possible’.

It doesn’t matter if your skills are high enough to do it successfully, there are cleaner non-destructive connections you can access. Of course if you have no choice then it’s fine, but it should be avoided because it makes future servicing a pain if that component or that circuit needs replacing. Of course, Arcade techs are all about saving as much time and repair hassle as possible.

Personally, I saw the previous tutorial and immediately thought people would mess it up. That’s why I started probing for alternative connections but what TO provide was perfect. The new method is indeed better, but FBX still gets the kudos for his work in sharing his findings.


In regards to circuit efficiency, it's not better. Components that feed into op-amps should be as efficient as possible, which means the shortest traces as possible. My method is perfectly fine and technically more efficient when done correctly. I'm willing to concede as I said before that the underside method is safer for the inexperienced, but not necessarily 'better' on its own as that is subjective interpretation.

And for the record, I didn't 'destroy' anything with my method. It's easy enough to reflow the solder on the resistor if you want to remove the cap. I do it all the time in experiments.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:18 pm 


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No need to get defensive. This is subjective, agreed. I’m just relaying advice given to me by an experienced tech. Having to desolder the resistor, or any component for that matter to undo a modification is just one more thing to deal with when things can be made easier. Experienced or not, it’s not about that. It’s about clean future proofing, and less steps to generate an error or fault. Whether it be user errors or component failure, I think we can all agree that less steps to fix something is the more desirable one.

Like I said, kudos to you for the fix discovery. But as a tutorial for the masses, TO’s method is indeed cleaner and thus, better for the future.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:42 pm 


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opt2not wrote:
No need to get defensive. This is subjective, agreed. I’m just relaying advice given to me by an experienced tech. Having to desolder the resistor, or any component for that matter to undo a modification is just one more thing to deal with when things can be made easier. Experienced or not, it’s not about that. It’s about clean future proofing, and less steps to generate an error or fault. Whether it be user errors or component failure, I think we can all agree that less steps to fix something is the more desirable one.

Like I said, kudos to you for the fix discovery. But as a tutorial for the masses, TO’s method is indeed cleaner and thus, better for the future.


To be fair, even the underside method requires soldering to a component, albeit a larger one. But really I do apologize for posting the top method. I wasn't thinking about risk-factor concerns and instead was focused on efficiency. It was a spur-of-the-moment reaction in excitement. Had I known people would end up breaking their SSDS3s attempting to do the mod themselves, I wouldn't have posted it.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:07 pm 


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I think people who aren't confident-enough about their soldering skills can only blame themselves, also for rushing without waiting for TO's reaction.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:11 pm 


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DirkSwizzler wrote:
Does it need to be electrolytic? Or is a 10uf ceramic likely to have the same effect?


Bump


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:00 pm 


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DirkSwizzler wrote:
DirkSwizzler wrote:
Does it need to be electrolytic? Or is a 10uf ceramic likely to have the same effect?


Bump


I think it needs to be electrolytic or tantalum polarized. I'm speculating on this in that my own Vref circuit for my bypass Genesis amp board required a polarized 10uF electrolytic.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:25 pm 



Joined: 28 Mar 2018
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FBX wrote:
SSDS3 buzzing sound and SD access noise eliminated! Here's my crude diagram:

I ran several CD games and couldn't detect any buzzing or SD card access. However, I'm also thinking of raising the resistor on R29 to something like 6K. The 4.7K they have on there is awfully loud for line level from my own tests.

But at any rate, this fix is simple and easy to implement for those with some experience with a soldering iron.

Cheers!


hats off!!!

great job, I'm going to fix my SSD3, thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:19 am 


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DrZhark wrote:

hats off!!!

great job, I'm going to fix my SSD3, thank you!


Thanks! But be sure to use Terraonion's guide for adding the cap underneath the board!
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:00 am 



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How’s the new amp?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:19 am 


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Quote:
Thanks! But be sure to use Terraonion's guide for adding the cap underneath the board!

personally I find it harder to solder to a via (as in their guide) than soldering to the edges of a smd resistor.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:03 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Thanks! But be sure to use Terraonion's guide for adding the cap underneath the board!

personally I find it harder to solder to a via (as in their guide) than soldering to the edges of a smd resistor.


Me too. I've actually said this a couple times in debates that I think it's slightly harder to solder to a tiny via. However, I can't deny it's a safer location for the less experienced hobbyists to attempt this fix on. That's not to say I'm some sort of expert. I've only been soldering for about a year now, but I take the time to study the pros like Voultar and I watch videos from EEVBlog and Louis Rossmann, and I harass other geniuses like Ste and Ace for free lessons. These are guys that make me realize how little I know, but it's great to learn from them!
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:22 am 



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From their post:

Image

You're really, really, really not supposed to bend capacitor leads like that. Check any usage guide from any major capacitor maker and you'll see that they recommend never bending them more than a 30-degree angle. These capacitors are supposed to be sealed, but there is nothing more than a piece of rubber and that crimp in the outer casing keeping that seal. Open one up if you'd like to see just how vulnerable they are - the metal leads don't have any kind of serration to help them stay in place.

With caps that are just a few millimeters in diameter, you can often get away with lots of bending because the size makes the package really tight. Try pulling the lead out of a cap with a diameter >1cm, however, and you'll see that it puts up about as much resistance as the roots of lawn-grass. With pliers, they pop right out.

In short, you might get away with this, but it is super-bad practice.

I opened up a console that someone RGB modded for me back before I knew how to solder, and this person had bent the leads of a few caps just like this. The electrolytic fluid had leaked out such that it looked like moss was growing on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:34 am 


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SamIAm wrote:
From their post:
You're really, really, really not supposed to bend capacitor leads like that. Check any usage guide from any major capacitor maker and you'll see that they recommend never bending them more than a 30-degree angle. These capacitors are supposed to be sealed, but there is nothing more than a piece of rubber and that crimp in the outer casing keeping that seal. Open one up if you'd like to see just how vulnerable they are - the metal leads don't have any kind of serration to help them stay in place.


I was planning on using a set of needle-nose pliers to fix/lock the leg of the capacitor before making the bend thus avoiding stressing the internals.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:40 am 


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Why anyone would take electronics advice from terraonion...

On another note why is it that we are performing an RGB bypass with basically the same components terra used but its fixing diagonal noise?

Fbx did you leave the ssds3 ths7374 in place?
I see you didn't lift RGB pins so the traces still run to the ssds3. Just trying to make heads or tails of where this interference is starting from.

Today I completely removed the ssds3 composite and csync and ran csync straight to an Extron buffer and still have diagonal noise super bad.
Thing is though the noise completely disappears if I start the system with a hucard. Wtf?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:51 am 



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rtw wrote:
I was planning on using a set of needle-nose pliers to fix/lock the leg of the capacitor before making the bend thus avoiding stressing the internals.


Yep, that will work.

If I were ever going to do modding as a service, I'd probably pick up one of these lead-forming pliers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfhhjzjgQpM

Since the through-hole spacing in old consoles is almost always wider than the pitch of the leads in modern capacitors, I'm afraid that a lot of people are going to have to get their re-capped consoles...er...re-capped due to the seals being compromised.

This is what just such a problem can look like, for anyone concerned. See that gunk on the bent leads on the right?

Image

On that note, I also suspect that a lot of people who have modded in small surface-mount ceramic capacitors for things like the PCE RGB jailbar fix didn't read up on how vulnerable those are to thermal-shock cracks. Without proper pre-heating before soldering, you can cause these cracks which eventually lead to open failure if you're lucky, and short failure if you're not. You're not even supposed to touch the tip of your iron to the capacitor itself at any point.

We should probably put together a cap-soldering PSA or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:50 pm 


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SamIAm wrote:
... You're not even supposed to touch the tip of your iron to the capacitor itself at any point.


:shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:17 pm 


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what's the deal with voultar's RGB-Bypass mod for the SSS3?
I see he won't provide any install info whatsoever (wtf) and there is some harsh words from badassconsoles , so what all these mean for the end users that want the best possible performance from their devices even if it means doing extra work? :?:


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:03 pm 


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keropi wrote:
what's the deal with voultar's RGB-Bypass mod for the SSS3?
I see he won't provide any install info whatsoever (wtf) and there is some harsh words from badassconsoles , so what all these mean for the end users that want the best possible performance from their devices even if it means doing extra work? :?:


It means this is a fucking expensive huge pain in the ass DIY project that's priced like a real working product. (And, that's before you start figuring out what your time is worth.)

Oops. Their banhammer doesn't reach all the way over here and they can't moderate all discussion of the DIY3? ;) Sorry bout their luck.

Doesn't look like retrorgb is ready to clam up and politely get in line, either.

I refuse to buy this thing.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:10 pm 



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keropi wrote:
what's the deal with voultar's RGB-Bypass mod for the SSS3?
I see he won't provide any install info whatsoever (wtf) and there is some harsh words from badassconsoles , so what all these mean for the end users that want the best possible performance from their devices even if it means doing extra work? :?:


Whoa whoa whoa.

Voultar created a test board in his spare time and put it out for anybody to try. He’s not selling a product, it’s just a little board you can buy for almost nothing- the cost of having it made essentially. He’s not guaranteeing any results. The reason he’s not proving instructions is because he doesn’t want this blowing up in his face if people have issues with it. Don’t get salty at him for trying to help.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:28 pm 


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Also, Voultar designed a fix and the vendor still won't fix their product.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:49 pm 


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To wrangle it back a bit. If you want the "best". I believe it's still unquestionable that you need to RGB mod your PCE directly for the best. So you're shortening the path between the encoder and the 7374.

And somehow combine audio from the SSDS3 with the RGB from the PCE. Personally I'm installing a headphone jack on the side of the SSDS3 and hoping to mod one of the retrogamingcables.co.uk genesis/neogeo cables with the headphone stereo plug to fit the standard PCE RGB mod pinout/components (that is unless I can convince Robert to produce them directly).

I still can't figure why the SSDS3 has the output on the very back. This thing attached to the back of a PCE (or god forbid a supergrafx) is already super deep and there's a ton of wasted space on the side. You know, where all the cd-rom addons place their output.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:27 pm 


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Okay so I did some more extensive testing by stripping out the ENTIRE op-amp circuit and substituted in my Genesis amp board (which has properly designed circuits) With this, I was able to reduce the background noise to 0.0017dB. The problem is, that's still enough noise that when you play the game at a loud volume level, you can still just barely hear it in silent moments. Here's a link to my recording tests:

https://filetrip.net/dl?EYWTtxPFPA

And here's a link to my bypass work:

Image

Several things I tested:

1. Outputs from my board going straight to my ADC recording deck. Result: no difference in noise level.

2. Lines tied back into the SSDS3 (as depicted in the photo). Result: no difference in noise level. This effectively ruled out tracing issues with the analog output.

3. External 5V power supply added, but it wouldn't work unless the negative lead was tied to the ground pin of the console. Result: no difference in noise level.

4. Probed the un-amped mixing points for left and right audio, and couldn't detect any noise at all. However, I'm going to do this test again and record the results so I can analyze for any hint of noise.

Furthermore, Mobiusstriptech and Voultar both tested the video end extensively with external and isolated power, and the noise in the video feed was still present as well. This leads me to suspect there's something wrong with the grounding in the SSDS3 V2. That's my best guess at the moment.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:41 pm 



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FBX wrote:
This leads me to suspect there's something wrong with the grounding in the SSDS3 V2.


What would ever give you...oh.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:45 pm 


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SavagePencil wrote:
FBX wrote:
This leads me to suspect there's something wrong with the grounding in the SSDS3 V2.


What would ever give you...oh.


Yeah I know that was a major problem in V1, but I honestly can't figure it out. I was sure it was Vcc, but everything seems to be leading back to ground issues.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:56 pm 


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tzakiel wrote:
keropi wrote:
what's the deal with voultar's RGB-Bypass mod for the SSS3?
I see he won't provide any install info whatsoever (wtf) and there is some harsh words from badassconsoles , so what all these mean for the end users that want the best possible performance from their devices even if it means doing extra work? :?:


Whoa whoa whoa.

Voultar created a test board in his spare time and put it out for anybody to try. He’s not selling a product, it’s just a little board you can buy for almost nothing- the cost of having it made essentially. He’s not guaranteeing any results. The reason he’s not proving instructions is because he doesn’t want this blowing up in his face if people have issues with it. Don’t get salty at him for trying to help.


Stop with the overreaction. Noone is being "salty" (or any similar teenage meme-word similar to it for that matter) - I posted a genuine question.
The fact that he does not even say "remove R1, R23, blah blah and U233" to make this work is hindering people that want to try this board.
Do you have this info? If you do please post it.
Soldering extra boards has a risk to your device this goes without saying. And it's pretty clear what he writes about this being a TEST board I don't think anyone that isn't 12 years old is expecting this to be the pinnacle of RGB output coming from such a test board... :roll:


DirkSwizzler wrote:
To wrangle it back a bit. If you want the "best". I believe it's still unquestionable that you need to RGB mod your PCE directly for the best. So you're shortening the path between the encoder and the 7374.

And somehow combine audio from the SSDS3 with the RGB from the PCE. Personally I'm installing a headphone jack on the side of the SSDS3 and hoping to mod one of the retrogamingcables.co.uk genesis/neogeo cables with the headphone stereo plug to fit the standard PCE RGB mod pinout/components (that is unless I can convince Robert to produce them directly).

I still can't figure why the SSDS3 has the output on the very back. This thing attached to the back of a PCE (or god forbid a supergrafx) is already super deep and there's a ton of wasted space on the side. You know, where all the cd-rom addons place their output.


I see... I do have voultar's rgb amp installed on my supergrafx and I've thought about only using audio from the SSS3 port (kinda like the genesis1 cables use stereo sound from the headphones port) but it will look more of a mess than what the sgx+sss3 already is :lol: I wish there was a way to make the audio connection internal or something...

@FBX
great tests there, keep us updated!
also belated thanks for your buzzing fix, did it exactly like you showed on the resistor and it made a difference :)


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:07 pm 


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FBX wrote:
Yeah I know that was a major problem in V1, but I honestly can't figure it out. I was sure it was Vcc, but everything seems to be leading back to ground issues.

At this point I don't even see what could theorized to be the issue other than a ground issue or component improperly implemented that's adding noise to ground.


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