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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:48 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
opt2not wrote:
Conversely, I really wished this forum would go back to enjoying the games more, rather than being RGB-videophile centric, where people care more about how the quality of the game looks rather than gameplay discussions. There are some threads here that are still about games, but it seems a lot of the more popular ones are filled with video experts talking about the minutia of Electric Engineering details, colour ranges, etc

You won't find much gameplay discussion in the Hardware sub-forum :) and that's normal, and expected. There are a bunch of very cool threads in Off-topic that discuss gameplay only. And there's no hardware talk to be found in there.


Yeah bro I’ve been here long enough to know that. The shmups forum, for all your RGB nitpicking needs! :roll:
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:33 am 


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opt2not wrote:
Yeah bro I’ve been here long enough to know that. The shmups forum, for all your RGB nitpicking needs! :roll:

I've gotta say that some discussions in this sub-forum just fly over my head. I find them too "nitpicky", as you say. But threads on new products, on modern displays for videogames and on inquiries for technical assistance/help repairing hardware and building database for RGB-modding north american tv sets are examples of very relevant hardware discussions IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:09 pm 



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zoopster wrote:
Apologies if this has already been covered, but I have the rev. 1 SSS3 and can't get it to sync with my BVM D24. This is using the packapunch megadrive 2 cable into a gscart scart switch. Works fine via my LED flatscreen via SCART. Tried with original PC Engine and Core Grafx 2. Any suggestions?

Cheers
John


Kez wrote:
LDigital is having the same problem, I suspect the sync output of the original board is just way off-spec and BVMs don't like it. You're unlikely to get much support unfortunately as the board is gonna be replaced.

I suspect using composite video as sync may help though, so if you have a cable like that for the MD2 you might see some results.


Anybody using the version 2 SSD3 on a multiformat BVM? I have the BVM-D20 so hopefully won't have any sync issues. You have any photos of what it's doing? Is it a skew on the top or anything like that? VCR mode being on for 240p sources seems to work to fix any issues on the BVM-D series (if we're talking about the same thing - which without a pic we very well might not be). Only problem I really have on my D20 is with Dreamcast over 480p which an Extron RGB interface fixes.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:21 pm 


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I just received the version 2 today. My results are basically identical to cr4zymanz0r's, with the LPF off there is a great deal of video noise on the OSSC. The LPF takes care of most of it, but it can be visible on solid colours (particularly green) if you are up close.

Other than that, the picture is pretty great and when playing games from a reasonable distance I have yet to notice the noise despite looking for it.

I can confirm that it works well on the BVM-D20 and I am not able to detect the noise on it.

There is a slight audio buzz present whenever the ODE is reading disc images, it seems more noticeable on some speakers than others. When music is playing I can't hear it, but sometimes in quieter parts of games (e.g. the intro to Rondo of Blood) the buzz is fairly obvious. This could be down to my cable as it's a homemade MD2 one. The video is all shielded (it's a recycled VGA cable) but the audio is not so I will probably make another with audio running completely separate and see if that makes a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:19 pm 


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Kez wrote:
I just received the version 2 today. My results are basically identical to cr4zymanz0r's, with the LPF off there is a great deal of video noise on the OSSC. The LPF takes care of most of it, but it can be visible on solid colours (particularly green) if you are up close.

Other than that, the picture is pretty great and when playing games from a reasonable distance I have yet to notice the noise despite looking for it.

I can confirm that it works well on the BVM-D20 and I am not able to detect the noise on it.

There is a slight audio buzz present whenever the ODE is reading disc images, it seems more noticeable on some speakers than others. When music is playing I can't hear it, but sometimes in quieter parts of games (e.g. the intro to Rondo of Blood) the buzz is fairly obvious. This could be down to my cable as it's a homemade MD2 one. The video is all shielded (it's a recycled VGA cable) but the audio is not so I will probably make another with audio running completely separate and see if that makes a difference.


What version of PCE/TG16 hardware are you using it with? Did it already have a RGB mod for you to compare versus the RGB output of the SSDS3?

I'll probably be checking more into the audio buzz this weekend. I didn't really mess with sound too much during my initial testing. Between work and being on a project frenzy lately, my time has been a bit limited.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:43 pm 


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It might not be just a PCE thing - have you guys tested other consoles with the LPF off? If I remember correctly I got noise from even relatively recent consoles (ie Gamecube) through the OSSC with LPF off. It's there (and defaults to on) for a reason I guess?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:07 pm 


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Yeah, you'll see some noise on probably any console with the OSSC's LPF turned off. It's just that there's a LOT when using the SSDS3 (that isn't anywhere near as bad on my Duo-R). It's not practical for gameplay to have it off that I know of, but it's kind of a way to 'visualize' how noisy the incoming RGB signal is. I was already seeing the noise using the SSDS3 with the LPF on, then turning it off let me see just how noisy it was.

Basically when I've checked other consoles with the LPF off, you get kinda typical mild looking analog video noise.
With the SSDS3, it's like static 'snow' you'd see from a dodgy RF signal, except (hard to describe) more uniform and in somewhat of a pattern.

The more I think about this, the more I'm skeptical of this being an issue with random PCE/TG16 consoles supposedly being noisy. Maybe they potentially contribute to the issue, but unlikely to be the primary culprit in my opinion. Here's the thing when I tested:

Core Grafx + SSDS3's RGB output
With original hucard game: much less video noise (but still not as good as my RGB modded Duo-R). The "static snow' look is not present
Same exact game, but loaded from the SSDS3 via microSD card: Way more video noise, with the 'static snow' present.


Last edited by cr4zymanz0r on Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:07 pm 


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Oh yeah, I would definitely expect to see some noise with the LPF off, but it is also a good indication of how much noise there is overall (in this case more than I have seen on any other console). The noise isn't invisible even with the LPF enabled, the game I have noticed it most on is the FMV sections of Valis II. There is a big green box around the video and the noise is very visible there. I have tried it with a recapped and jailbar fixed CoreGrafx, as well as a completely stock (as far as I know) original PC Engine, the results are very similar with both.

I do have an RGB mod, and the results are definitely better, but the mod is inside an IFU-30 (the briefcase) so not usable with the SSDS3. I will probably try to transplant it into the CoreGrafx soon and build a custom cable for sound.

I must stress that this isn't a terrible picture by any means. It is still hugely better than composite and perfectly playable. I doubt anyone using a CRT would be able to spot it it at all (even on a 900TVL BVM I can't spot it) and even with the OSSC you normally have to be stupidly close to the screen to be able to tell it's there.

The ODE part works great, though. Apart from saving time and money on CD-Rs and not having to worry about a failing laser, the improvement in loading times is also extremely cool especially for the odd games that will randomly stop to load in music. Everything is so fast now. Also tested the arcade card games with no issues.

EDIT:

cr4zymanz0r wrote:
With the SSDS3, it's like static 'snow' you'd see from a dodgy RF signal, except (hard to describe) more uniform and in somewhat of a pattern.


This also perfectly fits the description of what I see.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:14 pm 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
Posts: 291
Location: Woodinville, WA
Are you using a sync on composite or a csync cable?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:20 pm 


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csync. All my consoles have to use csync since I'm using a Extron Crosspoint switch (though I have connected the SSDS3's RGB directly to the OSSC during testing and nothing changed)


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:21 pm 



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Posts: 86
I've found using a csync cable to give a slightly better picture than using composite video as sync on the SSDS3.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:27 pm 


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Yeah I'm using csync, with a 470ohm resistor and 220uf cap in series on the sync. Also 75 ohm series resistors and 220uf caps on the RGB lines.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:19 pm 



Joined: 24 Dec 2017
Posts: 18
So using a Csync RGB cable through the OSSC I don't see any noticeable noise on my LG OLED.

However, if I switch over to the HD Retrovision cables I get the same diagonal video noise that was the original reason why people were complaining with Rev 1. When i use the same HD retrovision cables on my CRT, I can't notice the video noise at all though.

If I turn off LPF I get the same snow as described above.

I'm perfectly fine using the RGB cable I have, just not certain why there is different between the two.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:48 pm 


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HD Retrovision uses composite video as sync I believe so that may have something to do with it.

Are you saying you don't get snow with your csync RGB cable and no LPF?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:09 pm 



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Kez wrote:
HD Retrovision uses composite video as sync I believe so that may have something to do with it.

Are you saying you don't get snow with your csync RGB cable and no LPF?


No with the LPF turned off it is snowy with both cables. With it set to auto my video is clean with the csync rgb cable and ossc and has diagonal noise with the HDR cables both with and without the OSSC. Sorry for the confusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:17 pm 


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Ahh okay, yeah the noise really isn't too bad most of the time imo. For me the most noticeable it has been is on Valis II during the FMVs, so if you're curious check that out. I would be interested to know if that noise is not visible for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:34 pm 



Joined: 24 Dec 2017
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Kez wrote:
Ahh okay, yeah the noise really isn't too bad most of the time imo. For me the most noticeable it has been is on Valis II during the FMVs, so if you're curious check that out. I would be interested to know if that noise is not visible for you.


So I tried both my internal RGB mod on my SuperGrafx (mikris board) and the RGB from the SSDS3 with Valis 2 and they looked identical through the OSSC. No noise with either.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:59 pm 


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Kez wrote:
There is a slight audio buzz present whenever the ODE is reading disc images, it seems more noticeable on some speakers than others. When music is playing I can't hear it, but sometimes in quieter parts of games (e.g. the intro to Rondo of Blood) the buzz is fairly obvious. This could be down to my cable as it's a homemade MD2 one. The video is all shielded (it's a recycled VGA cable) but the audio is not so I will probably make another with audio running completely separate and see if that makes a difference.

I have this too on my unmodded white pce with csync md2 cable. I think it is a little bit more that a slight audio buzz. It's pretty apparent. But it still is not really bothering me that much. And it only applies to cd games that load more than once. For Hucard games no problem at all.
Perhaps some people will be bothered by it. I cannot understand why they did not fix this. That said, this is about the most amazing third party peripheral ever! Sometimes a game will not work, but then you just disable the button-reset option and it works fine. I give this device a score of 10/10.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:42 am 



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I'm using version 2 on my BVM D20. Retrogamingcable.uk MD2 cable.

I didnt notice the noise when I was enjoying it for the past 1 week, then when I read this thread I decided to do a test on my own. Same white PCE with SSDS3 and compare it with my clone dbgrafx RGB extension. And that is how I notice the diagonal noise.

Spoiler: show
Image


Image


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:34 am 


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Quote:
I didnt notice the noise when I was enjoying it for the past 1 week, then when I read this thread I decided to do a test on my own. Same white PCE with SSDS3 and compare it with my clone dbgrafx RGB extension. And that is how I notice the diagonal noise.


Are you guys using the original PSUs from back in the day with your PC Engines or replacement ones?
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:21 pm 



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BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
I didnt notice the noise when I was enjoying it for the past 1 week, then when I read this thread I decided to do a test on my own. Same white PCE with SSDS3 and compare it with my clone dbgrafx RGB extension. And that is how I notice the diagonal noise.


Are you guys using the original PSUs from back in the day with your PC Engines or replacement ones?


I'm using the replacement PSU.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:24 pm 


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I've been told the original PC-E PSU was linear while all replacement PSUs these days are switched. Using a linear PSU on a couple of PC Engines here has helped eliminate some picture noise.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:59 am 



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BuckoA51 wrote:
I've been told the original PC-E PSU was linear while all replacement PSUs these days are switched. Using a linear PSU on a couple of PC Engines here has helped eliminate some picture noise.


In that case, using the same PSU, the noise should also appear when I used the dbgrafx clone RGB extension yet there wasn't any noise at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:42 am 


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I did some more testing today. As someone else mentioned, the giant green border around the Valis 2 intro is a good test candidate. I tried it out and it was BAD. It should be a solid darker green color, but I could clearly see the interference sitting from my couch with the OSSC's LPF on. That was on my stock Core Grafx. I tried on my two TG16's and the interference was even worse. It seems like darker greens what makes it show up the most.

Someone else mentioned they were hearing buzzing in the audio with the SSDS3. I tried this out and there is indeed more buzzing from the SSDS3's AV port. However, it seems to be some sort of ground loop issue. I used the AV cable to connect the Core Grafx AV port's sound to my receiver (but still only using the input the SSDS3's audio was going to) and that cut the buzzing back down to normal analog levels. I could touch the metal grounding of the audio port on the receiver to the metal grounding to the stock AV cable and hear the buzzing greatly reduce while they're touching.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:37 pm 


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Quote:
In that case, using the same PSU, the noise should also appear when I used the dbgrafx clone RGB extension yet there wasn't any noise at all.


You'd think wouldn't you? but powerline noise is very hard to track down. Even so, disappointing to read all these reports, it should be possible to produce the unit so that using a switched power supply is not a problem (if that is even what's causing the noise).

Don't get me wrong this is still an awesome device but I wonder why they seem to have rushed this out again, without doing more extensive testing. I offered them a OSSC for free ffs :cry:
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:49 pm 


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I have been using a switched PSU but I have an original one. I'll test it out when I get a chance.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:13 pm 



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I've been using a stock SuperGrafx PSU with my system and still get the noise with HD Retrovision cables only. Haven't noticed an audio buzz at all though.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:52 pm 


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I have the audio buzzing issue as well, but RGB looks really good on my D24 with pack-a-punch cables. I did not follow the earlier ground loop isolation post...you have to use the SSDS3's multi-out in order to get CD audio, so maybe I'm missing something there. This is the disappointing part for me as we're forced to use it that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:48 pm 


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Wouldn't want to be the guy that "Tested" these units before full production......

Cant see them making a 3rd run so when do we start the SSDS3 mod/fix thread???


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:48 pm 


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Syntax wrote:
Wouldn't want to be the guy that "Tested" these units before full production......

Cant see them making a 3rd run so when do we start the SSDS3 mod/fix thread???


I'm getting the impression their idea of testing for the RGB portion was just "does it work on a small range of equipment we tried". They were initially defensive about the 1st batch until others got their hands on it and pointed out the issues. Then they fixed the issue with mixing the analog and digital grounds in the 2nd revision and redid csync to just be standard instead of trying to get it from HVsync like they were in 1st batch. I'd almost bet money after that they just made sure they didn't see interference any longer on the games people pointed out (Bonk 3 1st level background seemed to be the standard) on their (assumingly) limited selection of equipment, which I get the impression involved no upscalers at all.

I'd also assume sound was probably a similar scenario. Probably tested it on TV speakers, didn't notice anything wrong, then called it a day. I'm not discounting the probably extreme amount of time they put into creating and testing the ODE portion, but it was like AV quality was a complete afterthought, especially when quoting neosd: "We are not going to do any more changes to the video. We can´t notice any issue with it anymore. Also, after this experience we are not going to do any device more with RGB output. I hope you understand that, Super SD System 3 video otput was NOT designed to be a high end output. It was an extra on the ODE."
If I had other options for PCE-CD ODE, I'd probably be asking for a refund. Since this is my only option, I'm going to see if some fixes can be found. I don't know the skills check the SSDS3 itself to see if it's properly set up for filtering out noise.

My current plan is to RGB mod my Core Grafx once the amp arrives and make sure that's fine by itself. After that, I'll plug the SSDS3 onto it and hope it doesn't feed much noise back to the internal RGB mod.
If it's still good at that point, I'll just get the sound output from SSDS3. I'll probably have to do some ground funky-ness like I mentioned above to get rid of (minimize?) the audio buzzing.

I'm pretty displeased that I have to fool with all this on an expensive item, but what other options do I have.


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