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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:11 pm 



Joined: 26 Dec 2015
Posts: 59
If it was my choice I'd go for a no component cable.
You haven't included a cable so the spec is totally in yr control.
If you go with 'md2' spec not all md2 cables have been made the same and will end up with people moaning, a passive cable negates this.
Yr pce solution looks to be very comprehensive, shame yr tech support is on ng.com that place is bs good luck


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:06 pm 


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Location: Bellevue, Washington, USA
gojira54 wrote:
Yr pce solution looks to be very comprehensive, shame yr tech support is on ng.com that place is bs good luck


THIS. They seem to be actively cultivating an elitist community. I’ve seen racist and homophobic posts in the Super SD System 3 thread there without any hint of moderation. But even hinting at concern over video output is instant permaban.

It’s fine if that community doesn’t care about the video output. But I believe the larger Retro community that’s willing to shell out $300 for an ODE cares deeply about it.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:58 pm 


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The issue i mentioned above should be easily corrected with components in the cable though as i think a PCB redesign would be necessary to add the extra resistors to ground. Im sure there is also a way to reduce the voltage before the THS7374 but that would also most likely require a PCB change.

If they would decided to just leave as is (which i think is a 220uf or 330uf cap and 75 ohm resistors on the board), you could just build a cable with an extra 15 ohm resistor in series and a 470 ohm going to ground on each line. if you dont care about it being slightly brighter and little washed out, you could just use a passive cable.

if they decide to remove the caps and resistors from the PCB, you can get a cable made with a 220uf or 330uf cap with a 91 ohm resistor in series and a 470 ohm going to ground. if again you dont care about the slightly brighter image, just use a pre-made genesis 2/MD2 cable.

It was posted here that the HD retrovision cables have a switch to disable the resistors:
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?273291-PCE-Super-SD-System-3-Terraonion-New-Product-(Dec-2017)&p=4256971&viewfull=1#post4256971

If that is correct, then they should also work in both scenarios above, just might need to turn the brightness down on your tv a little.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:04 am 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 269
Moderation on ng.com seems to be done purely based on who is posting, not what they're posting. The forum has indeed plenty of racist signatures and homophobic slurs. If I had a company I would not want my product associated with this kind of crap.

Looking at the current thread on ng.com, I don't understand why they need to open up and check their cables. Why would they base the decision on how to proceed on the contents of the off-spec cable they happen to have used? Just chose what kind of cable you want to design your device for, why does it matter what's in the cable that you randomly happen to have right now.

Disappointing that this is an issue. I would've hoped for a solution like what the dbGrafx Booster offers (https://db-electronics.ca/wiki/products ... x-booster/). I wonder if they'll MacGyver-fix the current boards and/or make changes to the PCBs of the second batch or if this device will forever require an oddball cable with a 15/91 Ohm resistor for proper levels as mickcris explains.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:51 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 303
Guspaz wrote:
Compared to the Upergrafx 2, this thing:

  • Is $120 cheaper
  • Is apparently shipping (Upergrafx 2 was delayed due to quality issues)
  • Has all the CD system card functionality built-in (Upergrafx requires the original cards)
  • Can act as a flashcart for hucard games too
  • Works on the SuprGrafx

However, this thing doesn't upscale, so you'd need to pair it with an OSSC or Framemeister to get a similar effect in terms of 720p DVI video.

Yeah I will have to admit, I didn't think the UGFX was a bad value considering it upscaled too. But this, +HuCard+Genesis 2 RGB Cable (Can use HDR component cables) means this is so much better.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:08 am 



Joined: 04 May 2014
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Location: germany
BONKERS wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Compared to the Upergrafx 2, this thing:

  • Is $120 cheaper
  • Is apparently shipping (Upergrafx 2 was delayed due to quality issues)
  • Has all the CD system card functionality built-in (Upergrafx requires the original cards)
  • Can act as a flashcart for hucard games too
  • Works on the SuprGrafx

However, this thing doesn't upscale, so you'd need to pair it with an OSSC or Framemeister to get a similar effect in terms of 720p DVI video.

Yeah I will have to admit, I didn't think the UGFX was a bad value considering it upscaled too. But this, +HuCard+Genesis 2 RGB Cable (Can use HDR component cables) means this is so much better.


I will also never understand why several groups start adding upscalers into their retro products nowadays
there is either the group that already owns a OSSC/Framemeister for years or the group of strict CRT users. both groups do not have the need for it and especially dont want to pay extra for something that is kind of needless for them. I assume such an upscaler and its installation is quite pricey. Especially for such a "niche product" like the PC Engine where (I assume again) 90% of its gamers already have an upscaler or CRT.
Or are there any massive advantages of such an build-in upscaler compared to the OSSC? I guess it might better match with the consoles videosignal. but again I think this is something that you can also set up on the ossc. personally I do not have any experience with ossc or framemeister.
Just my 2 cents on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:59 am 


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Quote:
Or are there any massive advantages of such an build-in upscaler compared to the OSSC?

not what I would consider critial, but you can save yourself the whole A/D stage when using digital signals in the first place.

It's basically the same reason why some people go the HDMI route for their NES or N64.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm 


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I don't want to stir up drama, just want to make sure everyone understands how ng.com works.

Everything revolves around this:

Quote:
The fact is... there is a way to participate on NG.com... and rightly or wrongly... a n00b posting the way he did is in my view disrepectfully to the project and the community he just joined....

... It's for me to draw the line upon occassion...

Basically... if you're gonna post like an aggressive twat... make sure you have the rep behind you... and if you're new around these parts... the lesson is there for one and all...


Being part of the ng.com community is seen as a privilege and not a right. If you're new, you have to stay low, contribute to the community and try no to speak up, to build up your rep. This is due to unfortunate past events which have mined the community, which is why they act so protectively.

Once you understand that, you'll see why they're so keen on pulling the trigger on new members who speak up without even introducing themselves, even if they're saying something which is correct.

It's up to you deciding whether that's right or wrong, I just wanted to shed some light for those who have found themselves banned after few posts.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:38 pm 



Joined: 26 Dec 2015
Posts: 59
Yawn


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:05 pm 


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Hopefully Neodev keeps checking in here so the neo geo forums can be completely avoided. Or it would be nice if they opened their own forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:08 pm 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
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http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?273291-PCE-Super-SD-System-3-Terraonion-New-Product-(Dec-2017)&p=4257150&viewfull=1#post4257150

Quote:
Notice that we have soldered wires but the pcbs will not be shipped with wires, but with 0 OHM resistors soldered. We were able to do those changes cause the pcbs are manufactured but the components are still not soldered .


Cool to see them investigate and get to the bottom of it very quickly. I suppose this change implies that for an optimal SSDS3 experience, you may still want a custom PCE-specific cable to handle the higher voltage on the color lines.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:45 pm 


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strygo wrote:
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?273291-PCE-Super-SD-System-3-Terraonion-New-Product-(Dec-2017)&p=4257150&viewfull=1#post4257150

Quote:
Notice that we have soldered wires but the pcbs will not be shipped with wires, but with 0 OHM resistors soldered. We were able to do those changes cause the pcbs are manufactured but the components are still not soldered .


Cool to see them investigate and get to the bottom of it very quickly. I suppose this change implies that for an optimal SSDS3 experience, you may still want a custom PCE-specific cable to handle the higher voltage on the color lines.


Yeah, or if your system is already modded with an amp that's been attenuated, you can continue to use that and get a genesis 2/MD 2 AV cable and use it for audio. This is most likely what i will do as I already have a cable.

This is how I would build a cable for this:
Image

edit:
the resistors are supposed to go on the console side. It is unlikely 6 resistors would fit in the din plug so just putting the 91 ohm resistors in there I would think would be good enough. the 470 ohm to ground should be ok in the scart head.


Last edited by mickcris on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:02 pm 



Joined: 26 Dec 2015
Posts: 59
Cheers mickcris for that diagram =]
What about a 470 ohm on the sync line too, is that required u think?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:06 pm 


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gojira54 wrote:
Cheers mickcris for that diagram =]
What about a 470 ohm on the sync line too, is that required u think?


that one is wired for composite video so nothing else is needed. im not 100% sure at the moment what would be needed if using composite sync. Someone else probably knows. I think i recall it being a 220uf cap and 470ohm resistor in series, but dont quote me on that.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:58 am 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 269
Two Qs for the experts:

- Are we sure they haven't done anything to adjust the high RGB signal output from the console itself? We can see the output side of their board in the picture posted here, but maybe there's some attenuation done earlier?

- How big of a deal is this elevated output level, really? I mean, if I calibrate the OSSC settings for my Mega Drive and SNES with the 240p test suite, my SNES needs a bit of gain and the Mega Drive needs some negative bias + gain for the grayscale ramp to actually do 0-255. I don't know if these particular console revisions have design faults or high tolerance components or if they simply went off-spec from decades of wear, but it doesn't seem so unusual for 80s & 90s consoles to spit out not quite what they're supposed to. With the PC Engine, the 714 vs 800 mV difference sounds significant (intensity here is not linear anyway, yes?), but is it worth using a special cable? Do you think RCA/RGC will bother making one?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:35 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
Two Qs for the experts:

- Are we sure they haven't done anything to adjust the high RGB signal output from the console itself? We can see the output side of their board in the picture posted here, but maybe there's some attenuation done earlier?

- How big of a deal is this elevated output level, really? I mean, if I calibrate the OSSC settings for my Mega Drive and SNES with the 240p test suite, my SNES needs a bit of gain and the Mega Drive needs some negative bias + gain for the grayscale ramp to actually do 0-255. I don't know if these particular console revisions have design faults or high tolerance components or if they simply went off-spec from decades of wear, but it doesn't seem so unusual for 80s & 90s consoles to spit out not quite what they're supposed to. With the PC Engine, the 714 vs 800 mV difference sounds significant (intensity here is not linear anyway, yes?), but is it worth using a special cable? Do you think RCA/RGC will bother making one?


I'm by no means an expert, but:

- I would say it is extremely unlikely they did that. I think they would have mentioned it by now. Also if they were trying to get proper levels, they probably would have realized earlier that their cable had extra resistors in it.

- IMHO, it looks too bright and washed out with 75 ohm resistors. You can wait till you get yours and see how you feel about it. I know at least RCA makes custom cables. Ive never bought from RGC though so im not sure about them. They might just not have any 91 ohm resistors sitting around to do it as its not really a common value, but i'm sure they could buy some if someone wanted a cable with them in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:55 pm 


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mickcris wrote:
gojira54 wrote:
Cheers mickcris for that diagram =]
What about a 470 ohm on the sync line too, is that required u think?


that one is wired for composite video so nothing else is needed.


Also worth noting. It’s probably worth checking if the SSDS3 outputs composite video at all. I’m willing to bet that they only wired up the pins for the cable they were testing with.
_________________
Spoiler: show
  • YPbPr->Garo
    • PSP
    • PS2
    • XBox
    • Wii
  • RGB->OSSC & PVM-2530
    • Garo
    • AV Famicom
    • SNES
    • N64
    • GameCube
      • GBI
    • Genesis 2
      • CD
      • 32X
    • Saturn
    • Dreamcast
    • PS1
    • Neo Geo AES
    • SuperGrafx
      • SSDS3
    • CD-I
    • 3DO
    • Jaguar
    • HAS
      • CPS2
      • STV
      • F3
  • HDMI
    • OSSC
    • WiiU
    • Switch
    • XBox 360
    • PS3
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:59 pm 


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DirkSwizzler wrote:
mickcris wrote:
gojira54 wrote:
Cheers mickcris for that diagram =]
What about a 470 ohm on the sync line too, is that required u think?


that one is wired for composite video so nothing else is needed.


Also worth noting. It’s probably worth checking if the SSDS3 outputs composite video at all. I’m willing to bet that they only wired up the pins for the cable they were testing with.


They said it outputs composite video and RGB via the mini din jack. I have no reason to believe that its not connected.

From the 1st post on the neo geo forum:
"Its and ODE and a flashcart plus a AV Booster with RGB output using Mega Drive 2 video cables (both RGB and composite video cables are supported)"


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:15 pm 


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Ah. I should have re-read information before speculating. My bad.
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    • XBox
    • Wii
  • RGB->OSSC & PVM-2530
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    • AV Famicom
    • SNES
    • N64
    • GameCube
      • GBI
    • Genesis 2
      • CD
      • 32X
    • Saturn
    • Dreamcast
    • PS1
    • Neo Geo AES
    • SuperGrafx
      • SSDS3
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    • 3DO
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:34 am 


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If anyone can post on neo-geo still. Haighct says he always gets a duplicate order error. I got this a few times and fixed it by logging out of neosdstore.com and then logging back in.
_________________
Spoiler: show
  • YPbPr->Garo
    • PSP
    • PS2
    • XBox
    • Wii
  • RGB->OSSC & PVM-2530
    • Garo
    • AV Famicom
    • SNES
    • N64
    • GameCube
      • GBI
    • Genesis 2
      • CD
      • 32X
    • Saturn
    • Dreamcast
    • PS1
    • Neo Geo AES
    • SuperGrafx
      • SSDS3
    • CD-I
    • 3DO
    • Jaguar
    • HAS
      • CPS2
      • STV
      • F3
  • HDMI
    • OSSC
    • WiiU
    • Switch
    • XBox 360
    • PS3
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:32 am 


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I got an order in after the reset Friday and am really looking forward to this. Cast another vote for HD Retrovision compatibility.

I bought an extra Genesis 2 cable in their very first batch last year hoping to use it with some Frankenstein's Monster of a setup that would allow me to combine an Everdrive with Deunan's ODE. I've been told a briefcase will likely be the only option to go that route.

Now I can just get a cute little PCE and not worry about making a mess. Thanks, NeoSD :)
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:56 pm 


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DirkSwizzler wrote:
If anyone can post on neo-geo still. Haighct says he always gets a duplicate order error. I got this a few times and fixed it by logging out of neosdstore.com and then logging back in.

Thanks, I'll report it to the user.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:10 pm 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 269
mickcris wrote:
I'm by no means an expert, but:

- I would say it is extremely unlikely they did that. I think they would have mentioned it by now. Also if they were trying to get proper levels, they probably would have realized earlier that their cable had extra resistors in it.

- IMHO, it looks too bright and washed out with 75 ohm resistors. You can wait till you get yours and see how you feel about it. I know at least RCA makes custom cables. Ive never bought from RGC though so im not sure about them. They might just not have any 91 ohm resistors sitting around to do it as its not really a common value, but i'm sure they could buy some if someone wanted a cable with them in it.


Thanks! I'm trying to understand your suggested cable construction. My knowledge here is incredibly basic, so not critiquing anything, simply trying to understand it for myself.

You suggest turning the in series 75 ohm resistor into a voltage divider, 86 ohm in series, 586 ohm to ground, like this

0.8*586/(86+586) ~ 0.69Vpp

Very close to ideal. But we want to use standard values resistors, so it'll be

0.8*470/(91+470) ~ 0.67Vpp

Still close, probably better to undershoot in any case.

What confuses me, why do we use a simple in series 470 ohm resistor to attenuate TTL csync into video level sync, but need a voltage divider to attenuate our video levels? Is that because the sync pulses are of a known/fixed voltage & current draw?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:50 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
mickcris wrote:
I'm by no means an expert, but:

- I would say it is extremely unlikely they did that. I think they would have mentioned it by now. Also if they were trying to get proper levels, they probably would have realized earlier that their cable had extra resistors in it.

- IMHO, it looks too bright and washed out with 75 ohm resistors. You can wait till you get yours and see how you feel about it. I know at least RCA makes custom cables. Ive never bought from RGC though so im not sure about them. They might just not have any 91 ohm resistors sitting around to do it as its not really a common value, but i'm sure they could buy some if someone wanted a cable with them in it.


Thanks! I'm trying to understand your suggested cable construction. My knowledge here is incredibly basic, so not critiquing anything, simply trying to understand it for myself.

You suggest turning the in series 75 ohm resistor into a voltage divider, 86 ohm in series, 586 ohm to ground, like this

0.8*586/(86+586) ~ 0.69Vpp

Very close to ideal. But we want to use standard values resistors, so it'll be

0.8*470/(91+470) ~ 0.67Vpp

Still close, probably better to undershoot in any case.

What confuses me, why do we use a simple in series 470 ohm resistor to attenuate TTL csync into video level sync, but need a voltage divider to attenuate our video levels? Is that because the sync pulses are of a known/fixed voltage & current draw?


the reason for parallel resistors is to also make it 75 ohms as well as reduce the voltage. TTL sync is 5v so the 470 ohm resistor just reduces the voltage. I'm assuming that impedance matching isn't as critical on sync, but i dont really know if that is correct. It could be that the TTL sync lines are terminated already with a 75 ohm resistor inside of the console also.

you can use also use 86ohm (18+68) and 586ohm (562+24) but that might be a tight fit in the cable, unless someone makes a pcb for smd components. probably some other values that would add up to those also. here are the calculations to both with 91/470 and 86/586:
Image

Edit:
I just remembered that Genesis cables are supposed to have the resistors in the din connector, so making one with 86 and 586 values probably is not going to be possible as there may not be room for the resistors.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:42 am 



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mickcris wrote:

the reason for parallel resistors is to also make it 75 ohms as well as reduce the voltage. TTL sync is 5v so the 470 ohm resistor just reduces the voltage. I'm assuming that impedance matching isn't as critical on sync, but i dont really know if that is correct. It could be that the TTL sync lines are terminated already with a 75 ohm resistor inside of the console also.

you can use also use 86ohm (18+68) and 586ohm (562+24) but that might be a tight fit in the cable, unless someone makes a pcb for smd components. probably some other values that would add up to those also. here are the calculations to both with 91/470 and 86/586:
Image

Edit:
I just remembered that Genesis cables are supposed to have the resistors in the din connector, so making one with 86 and 586 values probably is not going to be possible as there may not be room for the resistors.


Ok, makes sense! I’ve never actually seen a cable with the resistors in the DIN plug. RGC UK uses a PCB with surface mount components in the SCART head, should be quite doable to swap the in series resistors on the board and add three flying ones to the ground pins.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:41 am 



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ASDR wrote:
What confuses me, why do we use a simple in series 470 ohm resistor to attenuate TTL csync into video level sync, but need a voltage divider to attenuate our video levels? Is that because the sync pulses are of a known/fixed voltage & current draw?


The 470 Ohm resistor forms a voltage divider with the 75 Ohm resistor to ground in the display/scaler. Also The Megadrive doesn't output 0.7 V but it outputs 1.4 V and is attenuated by the 75 Ohm in the cable and 75 Ohm in the display.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:08 pm 


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Well I just spent the morning reading thru the neo forums page, what a bloody mess that is.

How someone/developer can create a system then have so much damn confusion/no idea about correct video attenuation is beyond me.
The developer using non passive cables in system designed for passive ones for months with confirmed "positive" gets me really worried.

Someone should lend those kids a scope, id suggest it but "ROT the Impailer" would surely strike.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:52 pm 



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Syntax wrote:
Well I just spent the morning reading thru the neo forums page, what a bloody mess that is.

How someone/developer can create a system then have so much damn confusion/no idea about correct video attenuation is beyond me.
The developer using non passive cables in system designed for passive ones for months with confirmed "positive" gets me really worried.

Someone should lend those kids a scope, id suggest it but "ROT the Impailer" would surely strike.


Well, I already told you that it was an overlook from my side, the rgb circuit was designed with the proper values and AC coupling next to the video chip as it's the proper way to do it. Following the pinout I didn't check my cables to ensure they were connected straight to rgb pins as that would be the expected way (placing the coupling at thenend of the cable is worse). The only issue noticed after changing it is that the brightness was lower.
Most of the developing time was spent on the actual hardware emulation (cd, arcade card, system cards...). You can also check dbBooster author blog where he also suffered some issues with passive/non passive cables, so that's not a trivial iswue.
The usage of the genesis2 cable was just for ease of use for the user, as we developed hardware and not cables.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:17 pm 


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Apologies for speaking as though you were not in the room dude, after spending the morning in that toxic neo thread I'd all but forgotten your presence here.

Cheers for the speedy response.

I think what has left a sour taste in my mouth is how long that cable thing went on for when in reality after you realised your error it should of been a cut and shut case.

Your probably just too nice hey :p


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:28 pm 



Joined: 10 Dec 2017
Posts: 59
Syntax wrote:
Apologies for speaking as though you were not in the room dude, after spending the morning in that toxic neo thread I'd all but forgotten your presence here.

Cheers for the speedy response.

I think what has left a sour taste in my mouth is how long that cable thing went on for when in reality after you realised your error it should of been a cut and shut case.

Your probably just too nice hey :p


I'm glad the cable issue appeared while we still could solve it.

Also it happened that last week, when the announcement was made, I was away so we were not able to check the cable issue and solution till I returned on Monday.


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