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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:07 pm 



Joined: 18 Jan 2018
Posts: 12
Milspex wrote:
Neodev wrote:

About the video and audio quality, I can tell it looked quite good for me, except for the jailbars but there is noise. Maybe an internal mod is better because it takes the rgb right at the video chip, and avoids long path from the chip to the external connector, and then from the connector to the amp. The same for audio, the internal output is closer and probably cleaner. PCEs seem quite noisy inside and so, the longer the track, the more noise it picks.


So you are saying use an internal mod instead of the Super SD System 3 for rgb?


Unfortunately that is not an option since the internal mod will not output audio when using the Super SD System 3. :\


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:13 pm 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 269
broken wrote:
I too am seeing some wavy noise in the video signal. Tested on both a PVM and OSSC setup with the same results.

I was waiting on a new scart cable to arrive before bringing it up.


Yeah, looks a bit like what I had on a SNES with a noisy PSU. I also have this from my internal RGB mod, but it's literally 10x more severe on the SSDS3 output. I see flickering and rolling waves in solid white. Filtering is cranked up all the way on the OSSC. Looked way worse directly into the TV. Since my internal mod taps RGB from the exact same spot and uses a basic home made, not individually shielded cable that even carries composite video (known for causing this kind of interference), I didn't expected the quality to be worse than that.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:14 pm 



Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 93
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
ugh this is not sounding good at all


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:26 pm 



Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 69
With my OSSC and the settings I mentioned earlier my picture looks excellent. I don't notice any crushing of dark or light areas. The contrast, brightness, and color saturation appear to be correct. There isn't any hint of noise or flicker, only the faint Jailbars which I've always noticed.

When I connect to my XRGB Mini I do notice some weird interference like effect when the background is scrolling but I haven't tried adjusting any settings. I'll take another look tonight and report back.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:28 pm 


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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 434
Location: Texas, USA
Eatitup_86 wrote:
Milspex wrote:
Neodev wrote:

About the video and audio quality, I can tell it looked quite good for me, except for the jailbars but there is noise. Maybe an internal mod is better because it takes the rgb right at the video chip, and avoids long path from the chip to the external connector, and then from the connector to the amp. The same for audio, the internal output is closer and probably cleaner. PCEs seem quite noisy inside and so, the longer the track, the more noise it picks.


So you are saying use an internal mod instead of the Super SD System 3 for rgb?


Unfortunately that is not an option since the internal mod will not output audio when using the Super SD System 3. :\


You could get/make a scart cable with rca jacks and plug a genesis cv cable into the mini jack of the SSD3. then just use the audio from that and video from an internal mod.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:34 pm 



Joined: 18 Jan 2018
Posts: 12
I am not sure that is a viable option either.

When I had the Super SD System 3 hooked to my Supergrafx it was making my Voultar RGB bypass amp de-sync repeatedly on my framemeister.

Maybe it is drawing too much signal along the line and making it function strangely?

The Voultar bypass was installed directly to the IC so the traces were only going maybe... 3 inches to the jack as well. I removed it thinking it may help the Super SD System 3 function properly before waiting for them to discover the problem is on their end. :\


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:34 pm 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 269
Neodev wrote:
Well, seeing that increasing the vsync threshold fixes the issue, it seems clear that the cause is that hsync pulses are too wide, over the default ossc value, and thus, it can't tell apart hsync pulses from vsync. Increasing the value above the hsync value (in my scope they seem between 10 and 11us, hard to tell as my scope resolution is low) makes it properly detect vsync.

About the video and audio quality, I can tell it looked quite good for me, except for the jailbars but there is noise. Maybe an internal mod is better because it takes the rgb right at the video chip, and avoids long path from the chip to the external connector, and then from the connector to the amp. The same for audio, the internal output is closer and probably cleaner. PCEs seem quite noisy inside and so, the longer the track, the more noise it picks.


Geometry of sync pulses is above my knowledge level, but I don't think we can correct the width of a sync pulse with a cable?

My console has viletim's jailbar fix applied (power rail capacitors replaced) and it quite successfully (~90%) removes jailbars. Highly recommended, a simple, cheap & effective mod. The internal RGB mod taps RGB from the bottom of the board from the expansion connector pins, no difference there. Audio & sync/composite is stock PCE signal.

Since I only have a single cable, and no actual MD2 console to test it with, I can't exclude the possibility of my cable causing the issues I'm seeing. The cable seems correctly build, but that's no guarantee for flawless signal transmission, I guess. The image I'm getting from the SSDS3 is truly bad and the audio is far worse than in the recording of the stock console I linked in my original post.

I'm seemingly the only person in the world that does not stream their gameplay over the internet, so I unfortunately don't have a capture card. But here are some cellphone shots:

Image

Just imagine this flickering and please vocalise a beeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for the full audiovisual experience :D

Here's my SCART cable:

Image

Maybe I missed something, but all 5 resistors are there, seem to have the correct value, all 4 caps are there with the correct value & polarity as well and everything is heatshrinked. It's not a full shielded cable and doesn't have the thickest conductors, but it certainly doesn't look worse than the DIN8 cable I use for my RGB mode (which even carries composite video...) and that looks perfectly OK.


Last edited by ASDR on Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:35 pm 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 269
chadti99 wrote:
The contrast, brightness, and color saturation appear to be correct.


That I can confirm. My picture is terribly noisy, but the appears to be no black/white level issues or any loss of range.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:36 pm 



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 86
chadti99 wrote:
With my OSSC and the settings I mentioned earlier my picture looks excellent. I don't notice any crushing of dark or light areas. The contrast, brightness, and color saturation appear to be correct. There isn't any hint of noise or flicker, only the faint Jailbars which I've always noticed.

When I connect to my XRGB Mini I do notice some weird interference like effect when the background is scrolling but I haven't tried adjusting any settings. I'll take another look tonight and report back.



Interesting.


I even tried a much more powerful Genesis 1 psu in case it was a psu amperage issue. Same results.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:57 pm 


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Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 531
Location: USA
broken wrote:
Neodev wrote:

About the video and audio quality, I can tell it looked quite good for me, except for the jailbars but there is noise. Maybe an internal mod is better because it takes the rgb right at the video chip, and avoids long path from the chip to the external connector, and then from the connector to the amp. The same for audio, the internal output is closer and probably cleaner. PCEs seem quite noisy inside and so, the longer the track, the more noise it picks.



I have done internal mods on various white PCEs and on a couple occasions attached the RGB lines to the solder side of the expansion port connector rather than directly to the Hu chip.

And there was little to no noise in the video output.

And I have seen people put PCE RGB amps externally in small boxes that then plug into the expansion connector. Then a scart cable plugs into the box. Also, there was little to no noise there.



I think you guys might want to investigate this closer rather than dismiss this as being a signal length issue.



Can anyone confirm which pin the analog video circuit is referencing for ground?

Image

A21/C2 is what the video circuit should be referencing. Not the digital ground at C20. Green arrow is good, red arrow is bad.

Referencing C20/C8 could certainly cause visual distortions in the picture output as far as wavy lines and errors like that are concerned.

As long as your Super CD PCB thingy has good isolation and a reasonable layout, these noise problems aren't a result of pulling video from the expansion connector.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:16 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 1201
Broken is right. I also attach the rgb kit to the expansion connector, on turbografx consoles. no noise, video is clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:33 pm 



Joined: 26 Dec 2015
Posts: 60
Video output from the SSDS3 vs internal 7314 amp comparison
https://youtu.be/ULCcsmkMAII
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:43 pm 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 269
gojira54 wrote:
Video output from the SSDS3 vs internal 7314 amp comparison
https://youtu.be/ULCcsmkMAII
Image


You're using sync-on-composite, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:47 pm 



Joined: 26 Dec 2015
Posts: 60
Unshielded MD2 cable is sync on composite, nothing on sync line, RGB has 75R & 220uf
Internal mod is from ext bus csync, no components in the shielded cable
I'm using a decent PSU
Can't see much/any difference myself


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:34 pm 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 269
Thanks for another data point :D

Anyways, to me the increase in audio noise is actually a lot worse than the visual one. Here's a recording of the noise with the console sitting at the SSDS3 menu. Normalised for volume, but ratio not altered. It's basically a few seconds from the stock stereo out and then a few second of silence while the OSSC/TV do the handshake dance and then the audio from the SSDS3. I could post the recording, but the picture kinda communicates it already fairly well:

Image

Goes from mildly annoying low-key buzz to loud high-pitched audio agony :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:45 pm 



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 86
I’m going to have to check this later on as I don’t recall hearing more noise in the audio.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:48 pm 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 1054
Location: Australia
I was always a little concerened about the power draw of the SSDS3 and what it would do to the tiny 7085 inside.
I think its sub 1amp.

Ive upgraded mine to a 2amp version which fixes all types of issues for my other consoles.

Someone with an SSDS3 should give it a try.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:00 pm 



Joined: 10 Dec 2017
Posts: 59
ASDR wrote:
Thanks for another data point :D

Anyways, to me the increase in audio noise is actually a lot worse than the visual one. Here's a recording of the noise with the console sitting at the SSDS3 menu. Normalised for volume, but ratio not altered. It's basically a few seconds from the stock stereo out and then a few second of silence while the OSSC/TV do the handshake dance and then the audio from the SSDS3. I could post the recording, but the picture kinda communicates it already fairly well:

Image

Goes from mildly annoying low-key buzz to loud high-pitched audio agony :cry:



I am going to say this just to break the ice a bit, this is not criticize at all.

Do you guys play games at all?
To me, it seems you guys have oscilloscopes instead of controllers :)

Sorry, i could not resist that ... i wonder what you guys were doing when the only way to play those games in USA was RF and latter composite video.


BTW, we are working on the issue, this is not us ignoring it, but i am totally amazed to see the level this thread has reached

Alex,

EDIT : i know its an audio capture ...


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:06 pm 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 1054
Location: Australia
Neodev wrote:

Do you guys play games at all?
To me, it seems you guys have oscilloscopes instead of controllers :)


Do you guys properly test products before sending them out?

Your lucky we have scopes because there's this company which spat out an untested product and there dev team are still learning to use one.

Maybe you should of sent a few more units around instead of just giving Gadjet one.

Or someone here that has a decent set of eyes and ears.

I seriously don't find that joke of yours funny, maybe its lost in translation..

In my opinion you are missing an employee, you need someone who's skilled in analogue signals, and from the questions that have been asked of you lot you guys umm and arrr about analogue questions but if asked about 5v, 3v conversions we get a full 3 paragraph response.

I did not expect the issues to go as far as poor audio or visual interference.

Is everyone experiencing this??

I'm still keen to buy one but at this point it seems ill need to use my own RGB amp and reroute audio across the SSDS3, change the sync setup..... bahh.


Last edited by Syntax on Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:14 pm 



Joined: 10 Dec 2017
Posts: 59
Syntax wrote:
Neodev wrote:

Do you guys play games at all?
To me, it seems you guys have oscilloscopes instead of controllers :)


Do you guys properly test products before sending them out?

Your lucky we have scopes because there's this company which spat out an untested product and there dev team are still learning to use one.

Maybe you should of sent a few more units around instead of just giving Gadjet one.

Or someone here that has a decent set of eyes and ears.

I seriously don't find that joke of yours funny in the slightest.



Well, after all the insults i received here yesterday i think i deserve to own a little sense of humor.

I don´t have a clue about how to fix the issue, but i can recognize a guy not having a clue about what he is talking about aswel, and i saw more than one arround here (not talking about you BTW)

As stated, we tried our device with our equipments, with whats usual here.

Here in Europe every CRT since 80s came with scart, so its not usual to have profesional displays such as the SONY PVMS, cause anyone can have a 32" sony TV with scart for 60 euros.

We tried our device with whats comon here, CRTS and LCDS with SCART and found no issues.
I explained this here yesterday but it seems you wont understand that. It was our mistake to not have thought about that, we just don´t have this range of profesional displays you use there.


Never tried to offend anyone with my previous coment, just to break the ice a bit


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:22 pm 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 1054
Location: Australia
I kind of woke up and saw that there's now audio and video issues being brought up and got a little pissed. I'm sure your days much worse.
I shouldn'd of responded so seriously. Apologies.

I just want one of these units, and want it to work as well or better than an internal RGB mod and all the headaches involved with installing one.

Fence sitting about buying one and modding/fixing it then posting up the mod...


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:23 pm 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 180
Location: germany
You should hire me as project manager and especially press officer for your next product. I`ll be worth it :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:26 pm 



Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 93
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
As a customer I most definitely do not appreciate the joke.

You want feedback and suggestions, yet you do not take them seriously. You might as well be saying " sheesh man lighten up guys, so our product doesn't work as advertised even though you paid for it. It is not the end of the world" , because that is what I'm reading in between the lines.

Just my view on this situation


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:30 pm 



Joined: 14 Mar 2014
Posts: 78
Are you certain your scart cable was wired for Csync? Often times, the cheaper cable manufacturers don't state what the wiring is or even sometimes say it is Csync when it is really wired as composite on sync, for instance. That's my curiosity on how the Csync testing went.

And I think the joke may have come off wrong because we've seen the kind of discussion at Neo Geo in regards to the cables and RGB aspect of the device and how negative it turns. In fact, I tried bringing up the Csync issue in the support forum (albeit wrong thread which was my fault and trying to be cheeky and mocking "FUCKIN cable" of course), received a ban, and you gave me some odd rant and analogy about car tires and how a 15 inch wheel is not the same as a 19 inch wheel.

I don't doubt at the moment you're taking it seriously, and we do all appreciate the awesome kits you're creating. That one guy who was being combative on here was completely out of line.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:36 pm 



Joined: 10 Dec 2017
Posts: 59
Syntax wrote:
I kind of woke up and saw that there's now audio and video issues being brought up and got a little pissed. I'm sure your days much worse.
I shouldn'd of responded so seriously. Apologies.

I just want one of these units, and want it to work as well or better than an internal RGB mod and all the headaches involved with installing one.

Fence sitting about buying one and modding/fixing it then posting up the mod...



I am possitive cause i know we are on the right path to get it fixed, we are well known to deliver what we promise and to fix anything thats needed.

Milspex wrote:
As a customer I most definitely do not appreciate the joke.

You want feedback and suggestions, yet you do not take them seriously. You might as well be saying " sheesh man lighten up guys, so our product doesn't work as advertised even though you paid for it. It is not the end of the world" , because that is what I'm reading in between the lines.

Just my view on this situation



Yes, you are reading that cause you don´t know whats happening behind the scenes, and honestly i don´t think we have to start telling :

15:00 we bought 3 resistors at digikey
15:30 those resistors are shipped.

We are working on the issue, we will deliver a solution but we have to be sure about how we are going to deliver it.


svensonson wrote:
You should hire me as project manager and especially press officer for your next product. I`ll be worth it :wink:


I would recomend you to apply at google instead, we are just an small company, i am sure you will do better there.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:42 pm 



Joined: 10 Dec 2017
Posts: 59
FriendofSonic wrote:

And I think the joke may have come off wrong because we've seen the kind of discussion at Neo Geo in regards to the cables and RGB aspect of the device and how negative it turns. In fact, I tried bringing up the Csync issue in the support forum (albeit wrong thread which was my fault and trying to be cheeky and mocking "FUCKIN cable" of course), received a ban, and you gave me some odd rant and analogy about car tires and how a 15 inch wheel is not the same as a 19 inch wheel.

I don't doubt at the moment you're taking it seriously, and we do all appreciate the awesome kits you're creating. That one guy who was being combative on here was completely out of line.



FriendofSonic,

I am here cause i care about the issue and i care about our customers,

What i was trying to say is : hey guys, calm down, we are working on a solution


Summarizing :

We spent half of today working on the issue, we have already done things to get it fixed.
Now we have to try things and think what type of solution we are going to deliver, but before that we have to try things.

Just calm down a bit and play some games, give more feedback and so. This is all good, we just need some time.

Once we have taken a decision, before go fruther with it, we will tell you all about that, so you guys can review it.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:48 pm 



Joined: 14 Mar 2014
Posts: 78
Oh yeah. I don't think most of us are impatient with it, just giving the feedback and findings. And I think most of us could be characterized as calm-- no one's trying to attack you, outside of a select few.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:48 pm 



Joined: 25 Jun 2013
Posts: 23
Location: UK
Dear Neodev

Would you like one of our fully shielded MD2 CSYNC PACKAPUNCH cables for testing? I will send you this for free.

This is wired for CSYNC with a 220uF cap and 470 ohm resistor in series, and 220uF caps and 75 ohm resistors in series with the RGB lines.

Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:53 pm 



Joined: 10 Dec 2017
Posts: 59
retro_gaming_cables wrote:
Would you like one of our fully shielded MD2 CSYNC PACKAPUNCH cables for testing? I will send you this for free.

This is wired for CSYNC with a 220uF cap and 470 ohm resistor in series, and 220uF caps and 75 ohm resistors in series with the RGB lines.

Image
Image


retro_gaming_cables

Yes, we want to talk with you

Could you please send me a pm with your contact info ?

Thanks

Alex,

BTW, we were planing to contact you early today, but then we decided that it would be better to contact Voultar before, to have an exact picture of the issue.

So once we have isolated the issue we would think what kind of solution we are going to deliver.

So contacting you was on hold cause that.

And yes, we had a meeting with Voultar some hours ago


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:01 pm 



Joined: 25 Jun 2013
Posts: 23
Location: UK
Neodev wrote:
retro_gaming_cables wrote:
Would you like one of our fully shielded MD2 CSYNC PACKAPUNCH cables for testing? I will send you this for free.

This is wired for CSYNC with a 220uF cap and 470 ohm resistor in series, and 220uF caps and 75 ohm resistors in series with the RGB lines.

Image
Image


retro_gaming_cables

Yes, we want to talk with you

Could you please send me a pm with your contact info ?

Thanks

Alex,

BTW, we were planing to contact you early today, but then we decided that it would be better to contact Voultar before, to have an exact picture of the issue.

So once we have isolated the issue we would think what kind of solution we are going to deliver.

So contacting you was on hold cause that.

And yes, we had a meeting with Voultar some hours ago


Meeting! sounds very official!


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