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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:48 pm 


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I remember when I was experimenting on the video side of the SSDS3, I determined without a doubt they were crossing ground planes in the middle layers of the board (board is likely 4 layers in design). And I also determined there was HORRENDOUS proximity EMI the closer you got to the Mini-DIN port. Ultimately I gave up trying to fix it myself as I realized it was going to take a LOT of work. Sounds like it did take a lot!
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:01 am 


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Im still trying to find the source of the diagonal interference.
I get it regardless of ssds3 or hucard with an internal bypass.
It's barely noticable with my orange core but that white pce I had sucked.

I feel kinda sorry for TO making a device for a console that can have such unpredictable video quality regardless of general maintenance fixes like caps and LDOs.

The more PCE I test the less I blame TO.
Yeah they have a poor design, but theres some gremlin in these pce/cores screwing with video before TO even get a chance to amp it.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:01 am 


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Syntax wrote:
Im still trying to find the source of the diagonal interference.
I get it regardless of ssds3 or hucard with an internal bypass.
It's barely noticable with my orange core but that white pce I had sucked.

I feel kinda sorry for TO making a device for a console that can have such unpredictable video quality regardless of general maintenance fixes like caps and LDOs.

The more PCE I test the less I blame TO.
Yeah they have a poor design, but theres some gremlin in these pce/cores screwing with video before TO even get a chance to amp it.


Well the irony is they could have used the video bus lines to output a flawless picture, which is what they should have done in the first place. Digital video from ANY PCE console is flawless, even if you have the most jail-bar infested and noise riddled analog video output from it.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:18 pm 


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Syntax wrote:
Im still trying to find the source of the diagonal interference.
I get it regardless of ssds3 or hucard with an internal bypass.
It's barely noticable with my orange core but that white pce I had sucked.

I feel kinda sorry for TO making a device for a console that can have such unpredictable video quality regardless of general maintenance fixes like caps and LDOs.

The more PCE I test the less I blame TO.
Yeah they have a poor design, but theres some gremlin in these pce/cores screwing with video before TO even get a chance to amp it.



The white PC Engine is known for having video issues. They are noisy. That is due to poor routing and lack of filtering. It's the reason that I tell people to buy at least a CoreGrafx when planning to purchase a SSDS3. You are looking for a solution to an issue that isn't related to the SSDS3. However the issue is essentially the same.

TerraOnion definitely screwed up the video signal in their device. There is no point in contesting whether that is the case when you have devices like the dbGrafxBooster which don't produce the noise. TerraOnion was out of their element when they decided to implement analog signals. They didn't understand how important isolation and filtering is vs a digital signal.

I'm not dismissing that you are seeing issues without the SSDS3 attached. However any noise that already exists is only being amplified by the SSDS3. It's basically compounding the issue. I'm sorry that you have been encountering so many issues with regards to NEC consoles without the SSDS3. One tip I can give is that power supplies and cabling have a huge effect on the noise level that is produced. It's not the cause of all the issues, but it's definitely a way to compound it.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:22 pm 



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What I don't understand is why they didn't just implement the damn tg16 via fpga as well and make it a completely digital device. After all if the $130 MiSTer can do it an almost $500 tgcd fpga should have the juice to pull it off.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:50 pm 


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Mobiusstriptech wrote:

I'm not dismissing that you are seeing issues without the SSDS3 attached. However any noise that already exists is only being amplified by the SSDS3. It's basically compounding the issue. I'm sorry that you have been encountering so many issues with regards to NEC consoles without the SSDS3. One tip I can give is that power supplies and cabling have a huge effect on the noise level that is produced. It's not the cause of all the issues, but it's definitely a way to compound it.



Oh man dont be sorry, you've spent way more time than I have on this. I was just getting at Ive never used a PCE that didn't have slight diagonal interference. I wish I knew what caused it..

Might have to go the digital route and covert it to 240p/480p? Citrus??? :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:53 pm 



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FBX wrote:
Well the irony is they could have used the video bus lines to output a flawless picture, which is what they should have done in the first place. Digital video from ANY PCE console is flawless, even if you have the most jail-bar infested and noise riddled analog video output from it.


Out of curiosity, are there any mods that use the digital video lines? Seems like there wouldn't be so many complaints about video quality of the PCE line if we just did it that way instead of fussing with the analog RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:27 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
FBX wrote:
Well the irony is they could have used the video bus lines to output a flawless picture, which is what they should have done in the first place. Digital video from ANY PCE console is flawless, even if you have the most jail-bar infested and noise riddled analog video output from it.


Out of curiosity, are there any mods that use the digital video lines? Seems like there wouldn't be so many complaints about video quality of the PCE line if we just did it that way instead of fussing with the analog RGB.

Right now only the UperGrafx. I have yet to hear any compelling reason to purchase one though. It's more expensive and the ode functionality is lacking from what I understand.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:05 pm 



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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
thebigcheese wrote:
FBX wrote:
Well the irony is they could have used the video bus lines to output a flawless picture, which is what they should have done in the first place. Digital video from ANY PCE console is flawless, even if you have the most jail-bar infested and noise riddled analog video output from it.


Out of curiosity, are there any mods that use the digital video lines? Seems like there wouldn't be so many complaints about video quality of the PCE line if we just did it that way instead of fussing with the analog RGB.

Right now only the UperGrafx. I have yet to hear any compelling reason to purchase one though. It's more expensive and the ode functionality is lacking from what I understand.


Yeah, I was thinking of an internal mod. If the dB Booster does it, that would also be cool, but less useful for CD or SSDS3 users.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:18 pm 


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It's definitely possible. The PC Engine has 9bit digital RGB. So it's a matter of tapping the necessary signals and designing a means of processing that. You'd probably want to shoot for a 480p line doubled solution like the GCVideo.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:20 pm 



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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
It's definitely possible. The PC Engine has 9bit digital RGB. So it's a matter of tapping the necessary signals and designing a means of processing that. You'd probably want to shoot for a 480p line doubled solution like the GCVideo.


I mean for my purposes I'd rather keep it as 240p. But I don't know enough to develop any such thing, so if someone does decide to do this, an option for both would probably be good :)


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:42 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
Mobiusstriptech wrote:
It's definitely possible. The PC Engine has 9bit digital RGB. So it's a matter of tapping the necessary signals and designing a means of processing that. You'd probably want to shoot for a 480p line doubled solution like the GCVideo.


I mean for my purposes I'd rather keep it as 240p. But I don't know enough to develop any such thing, so if someone does decide to do this, an option for both would probably be good :)


That would just be a matter of offering the ability to disable line doubling. Either way, it's still possible to do. Someone just needs to take the time to do it. Similarly, the ODE solution could also be introduced as an internal mod. TerraOnion specifically wanted a plug and play unit but it is possible to develop such a device and tap the signals internally. This would be the ideal case for the Duos.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:13 pm 


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I went ahead and created a pre-order interest survey. Please if you are interested in a board fill out the survey. It will make it easier to gauge how many boards should be produced. The more boards, the cheaper they will be. I have a rough idea of cost right now but I don't want to underestimate the demand. My current plan is to create a batch of a few hundred boards. This will keep them very affordable.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/WNBD5ZG
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:54 pm 



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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
My current plan is to create a batch of a few hundred boards.

Are there that many ssds3 owners? I thought these things were much more nitch.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:34 pm 


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the Goat wrote:
Mobiusstriptech wrote:
My current plan is to create a batch of a few hundred boards.

Are there that many ssds3 owners? I thought these things were much more nitch.


Supposedly yes there are. According to TerraOnion they were shipping ~50 units a week for the first few months.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:33 am 


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I created an album of direct captures from the Final Revision FU-RGB. These are all taken using the OSSC at 3X with LPF set to Auto. No other changes. Direct capture with Datapath E1S. Using a very noisy white PC Engine with no changes from stock, not even the jailbar fix. SCART cable is a Retro-Access coaxial shielded Genesis 2 with metal housing. Power supply is from RetroGameCave.

https://imgur.com/a/l0WedQ1
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:56 pm 


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Production run has been ordered. Should have units in a few weeks. Time to get the documentation finished up.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:17 pm 


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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
I created an album of direct captures from the Final Revision FU-RGB. These are all taken using the OSSC at 3X with LPF set to Auto. No other changes. Direct capture with Datapath E1S. Using a very noisy white PC Engine with no changes from stock, not even the jailbar fix. SCART cable is a Retro-Access coaxial shielded Genesis 2 with metal housing. Power supply is from RetroGameCave.

https://imgur.com/a/l0WedQ1



That looks fantastic!
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:53 pm 


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FBX wrote:
Mobiusstriptech wrote:
I created an album of direct captures from the Final Revision FU-RGB. These are all taken using the OSSC at 3X with LPF set to Auto. No other changes. Direct capture with Datapath E1S. Using a very noisy white PC Engine with no changes from stock, not even the jailbar fix. SCART cable is a Retro-Access coaxial shielded Genesis 2 with metal housing. Power supply is from RetroGameCave.

https://imgur.com/a/l0WedQ1



That looks fantastic!


Thanks. These are all using the same PC Engine that I have used for the majority of captures. I am going to do captures with some of the other consoles as well. Including some with jailbar fixes applied.

For anyone that didn't see the tweet. Final pricing on the boards has been determined as well. Now that I have submitted for fabrication, I can calculate the additional costs. Additional costs are going to be shipping and credit card/paypal fees. Since I am assuming everyone will want to pay that way and I am not marking up the cost of the boards. Otherwise I wouldn't add in the fee cost.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:38 pm 


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I let everyone salivate long enough. I am announcing the pricing.

The boards will be $10 shipped in the continental US. If you opt to have me install it, then it will be $20 plus shipping both ways. All boards will be tested on a live machine by me before I ship them. Purchasing multiple boards will offer discounts since I will not be charging the shipping fee over and over.

International customer will just need to pay the difference. For example, Canada, will be $15USD shipped.

Thank you to everyone who let me know they were interested. I ordered substantially more boards than what was requested. This keeps the price nice and low like I wanted. Now to sell all of these so I can get back my investment.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:32 pm 


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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
I let everyone salivate long enough. I am announcing the pricing.

The boards will be $10 shipped in the continental US. If you opt to have me install it, then it will be $20 plus shipping both ways. All boards will be tested on a live machine by me before I ship them. Purchasing multiple boards will offer discounts since I will not be charging the shipping fee over and over.

International customer will just need to pay the difference. For example, Canada, will be $15USD shipped.

Thank you to everyone who let me know they were interested. I ordered substantially more boards than what was requested. This keeps the price nice and low like I wanted. Now to sell all of these so I can get back my investment.

Good god, that's crazy cheap labor. How long does an install take you on average? 5 minutes?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:43 pm 


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Including the testing around 30 minutes. I have done enough of these now that it's pretty simple. I won't need to do as much testing because I am going to be bench testing every board before selling it. So basically once the board is on, I just need to make sure the video output works.

I won't be providing scope plots for every install. I will probably only take a quick picture to show it's working for installs. Other installers can charge more and I don't see anything wrong with it. Just as others can build the boards and sell them for more. Doing all of this at such a cheap price is a personal decision I have made.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:55 pm 


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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
Including the testing around 30 minutes. I have done enough of these now that it's pretty simple. I won't need to do as much testing because I am going to be bench testing every board before selling it. So basically once the board is on, I just need to make sure the video output works.

I won't be providing scope plots for every install. I will probably only take a quick picture to show it's working for installs. Other installers can charge more and I don't see anything wrong with it. Just as others can build the boards and sell them for more. Doing all of this at such a cheap price is a personal decision I have made.

man you are gonna hate yourself making 10bux an hour between a 30minute install/QC and 30 minutes of packaging/shipping logistics if you end up doing a lot of these :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:07 pm 


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It could be worse. I mean realistically I could have charged more. Both for shipping and for the board. I could have gone with the usual markup on each. This was just something I personally didn't want to do. I have spent the last 5 months working on this. I will never get back the time invested. What I will be able to get is the satisfaction of knowing that I helped a lot of people who were just as upset as I was over this debacle.

When this batch is all sold, the price may have to change. The only reason it was so cheap was because of the size of the batch and me not tacking on extra cost for my time or R&D. Which in normal circumstances, I could and would.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:50 pm 


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Amazing price Mobius, really impressed by all the effort you guys have and are continuing to put into this. I understand you don't want to charge anything for your time, but perhaps you would consider putting an optional "tip" into the purchase process?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:59 pm 


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If that's something people would be interested in. I don't want anyone to think it's a requirement or even a request. With the holiday in the US this week, I should have time to grab more captures from the other consoles sitting here. I definitely want to get some SuperGrafx and TG16 captures. Along with some fresh scope plots. I have those currently but I like to keep them up to date.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:43 pm 


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The files are now publicly available on oshpark. So if you don't want to go through me, you can make your own.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:24 pm 


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I don't have an SSDS3 but the work that has been done to improve the video quality has been outstanding, I believe Voultar has sacrificed his SSDS3 as a result? hats off to him and Mobiusstriptech (and whoever else helped), selling these at cost too, amazing.


Last edited by Gunstar on Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:33 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
Mobiusstriptech wrote:
Including the testing around 30 minutes. I have done enough of these now that it's pretty simple. I won't need to do as much testing because I am going to be bench testing every board before selling it. So basically once the board is on, I just need to make sure the video output works.

I won't be providing scope plots for every install. I will probably only take a quick picture to show it's working for installs. Other installers can charge more and I don't see anything wrong with it. Just as others can build the boards and sell them for more. Doing all of this at such a cheap price is a personal decision I have made.

man you are gonna hate yourself making 10bux an hour between a 30minute install/QC and 30 minutes of packaging/shipping logistics if you end up doing a lot of these :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:45 am 


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I have updated the imgur album with SuperGrafx captures. Yes, I included Ghouls and Ghosts. That black background is extremely important.

https://imgur.com/a/RTNTQkj
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