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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:21 pm 


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I didn't mean anything against you or your always amazing efforts, Mobiusstriptech, and hopefully it wasn't taken that way. My comment about factoring in the cost of an FU-RGB and it may or may not fix the issues was truly a statement of my frustation with the version of the SSDS3 that I'm stuck with. I will say that that the FU-RGB I've got installed currently (disclaimer: hand built by me, and certainly a "pre-final" version) made significant improvements to the video output from my SSDS3, and I'll leave it at that. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:48 pm 



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NoAffinity wrote:
I didn't mean anything against you or your always amazing efforts, Mobiusstriptech, and hopefully it wasn't taken that way. My comment about factoring in the cost of an FU-RGB and it may or may not fix the issues was truly a statement of my frustation with the version of the SSDS3 that I'm stuck with. I will say that that the FU-RGB I've got installed currently (disclaimer: hand built by me, and certainly a "pre-final" version) made significant improvements to the video output from my SSDS3, and I'll leave it at that. :)


It's all good. I didn't take offense. I just didn't want anyone to think that I wasn't working on this anymore. It's very much actively being worked on. I am very much in agreement about the cost of the device and the issues. Spending $300USD and then dropping another ~$100 or whatever it works out to is BS.

Most people have had good results with all of the releases of the bypass board so far. My personal experience with the last 3 revisions have been better than what I see on my personal Duo R with Voultars board.

It really is coming though. I just got new boards last week. I will probably have more boards coming soon. As soon as the final revision is decided, I am going to order a huge batch and make the assumption that everyone will want one. If not, I guess I will have some cool wallpaper.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:24 pm 


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On your final revision, I'd be interested in trying it out on my Super Grafx to see if it helps. The prototype I used some months back only marginally improved the video, but it was still rife with noise. I got to thinking it's because the lines touch the SSDS3 board and go through that horrible mini-DIN setup, where most of the noise seems to be coming from.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:16 am 



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It's great to hear that you guys are working on solving the video and audio problems of the SSDS3. Once a single board that produces good RGB out of the SSDS3 and perfect sound without needing to mess with the volume balance menu option I will buy another SSDS3 (I sold the first one I got after realizing it's such an immature product at this stage).


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:49 am 



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
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fernan1234 wrote:
It's great to hear that you guys are working on solving the video and audio problems of the SSDS3. Once a single board that produces good RGB out of the SSDS3 and perfect sound without needing to mess with the volume balance menu option I will buy another SSDS3 (I sold the first one I got after realizing it's such an immature product at this stage).


It's probably best the mods remain separate. Something like the Gensis triple bypass would still be pretty interesting. It would be nice to think that Terraonion does a SSDS3 V4 and copies the designs.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:14 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Once a single board that produces good RGB out of the SSDS3 and perfect sound without needing to mess with the volume balance menu option I will buy another SSDS3 (I sold the first one I got after realizing it's such an immature product at this stage).


The mods go on different sides of the SSDS3 board, and since some people prefer console-side RGB bypassing, it's better to offer them as separate options. That said, I'm a huge fan of Voultar's V.69 RGB bypass board for PCE consoles. Superb RGB quality.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:47 pm 


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mario64 wrote:
Does Terraonion not intend to fix these defects with their product? Our only choice is to pay $300 then have it modded to work correctly?

I'm hoping a fixed version comes out soon, I was looking to buy one recently but I'd rather wait until these issues are resolved so I don't have to spend extra on a bypass amp. Kinda curious as to why these issues weren't ironed out in the first place...


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:54 pm 



Joined: 13 Dec 2015
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ApolloBoy wrote:
mario64 wrote:
Does Terraonion not intend to fix these defects with their product? Our only choice is to pay $300 then have it modded to work correctly?

I'm hoping a fixed version comes out soon, I was looking to buy one recently but I'd rather wait until these issues are resolved so I don't have to spend extra on a bypass amp. Kinda curious as to why these issues weren't ironed out in the first place...
Let’s just hope they actually do fix them. Pretty sure a dev posted on their forum that they weren’t doing any further revisions despite the outstanding issues


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:41 pm 



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Posts: 56
mario64 wrote:
ApolloBoy wrote:
mario64 wrote:
Does Terraonion not intend to fix these defects with their product? Our only choice is to pay $300 then have it modded to work correctly?

I'm hoping a fixed version comes out soon, I was looking to buy one recently but I'd rather wait until these issues are resolved so I don't have to spend extra on a bypass amp. Kinda curious as to why these issues weren't ironed out in the first place...
Let’s just hope they actually do fix them. Pretty sure a dev posted on their forum that they weren’t doing any further revisions despite the outstanding issues


They aren't going to be fixed by TO. Both their President and head Dev said no. Problem is if they fix the issues then they will have to deal with all of the rev1/2/3/4 owners asking for discounts or replacements.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:08 am 



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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
They aren't going to be fixed by TO. Both their President and head Dev said no. Problem is if they fix the issues then they will have to deal with all of the rev1/2/3/4 owners asking for discounts or replacements.
Thank you for the confirmation. That in itself is enough for me never to give this company a dime of my hard earned money.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:27 am 


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I gave the internal rgb mod another try. Lifted R,G,B and S from the SSDS3 pcb. The SSDS3 going through the internal mod looks like garbage. Tons of noise. I tested with a Hu Card and the SSDS3 not connected, and it looks great going through the internal mod. Ever so frustrating.

So, I'm looking forward to that final revision of the FU-RGB, mobius. Is there a timeline on when it might be available? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:40 am 



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I'm waiting on new gerbers from Voultar. Once I get those, I will verify them, order new prototypes, and test. If all goes well, then the production batch will be made.

Last set of prototypes I received didn't show any improvement from the previous batch. That's not a bad thing just means that the prototypes are staying consistent in output. I am really looking forward to testing the next set of prototypes. They have a very good chance of cleaning up the outlying cases. Namely the boards that still have residual noise after the bypass has been installed.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:18 pm 


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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
I'm waiting on new gerbers from Voultar. Once I get those, I will verify them, order new prototypes, and test. If all goes well, then the production batch will be made.

Last set of prototypes I received didn't show any improvement from the previous batch. That's not a bad thing just means that the prototypes are staying consistent in output. I am really looking forward to testing the next set of prototypes. They have a very good chance of cleaning up the outlying cases. Namely the boards that still have residual noise after the bypass has been installed.

Good news! If I can be of any assistance in the testing phase, I'm here to help (and of course, with the ulterior motive of getting this thing to an acceptable state and be done with fiddling with it). :)


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:04 pm 



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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
Problem is if they fix the issues then they will have to deal with all of the rev1/2/3/4 owners asking for discounts or replacements.

I respectfully disagree. They can implement the new features, send it for testing to verify, then call it the "SSDS4" or "SSDS3 2019 edition", "SSDS3 Elite Edition", etc. Not fixing mistakes in fear of people wanting refunds is exactly like not improving a 2019 car since people might want to return the 2018 model they just bought. I hope they're still reading this thread and understand they CAN fix the issues for future buyers.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:19 pm 



Joined: 30 Aug 2016
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retrorgb wrote:
Mobiusstriptech wrote:
Problem is if they fix the issues then they will have to deal with all of the rev1/2/3/4 owners asking for discounts or replacements.

I respectfully disagree. They can implement the new features, send it for testing to verify, then call it the "SSDS4" or "SSDS3 2019 edition", "SSDS3 Elite Edition", etc. Not fixing mistakes in fear of people wanting refunds is exactly like not improving a 2019 car since people might want to return the 2018 model they just bought. I hope they're still reading this thread and understand they CAN fix the issues for future buyers.

Whether or not they change the name, releasing a fixed version will be viewed as an admission that the older versions are broken. I wish they would fix the issues. I have not purchased a SSDS3 yet -- because of the documented issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:21 pm 



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I don't disagree with you at all Bob. I am in complete agreement. I'm just making that statement based on what Alex and team have said regarding making any changes to the device going forward.

I think it would be great if they went ahead and released a new version with all of the corrections.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:59 pm 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 279
the Goat wrote:
retrorgb wrote:
Mobiusstriptech wrote:
Problem is if they fix the issues then they will have to deal with all of the rev1/2/3/4 owners asking for discounts or replacements.

I respectfully disagree. They can implement the new features, send it for testing to verify, then call it the "SSDS4" or "SSDS3 2019 edition", "SSDS3 Elite Edition", etc. Not fixing mistakes in fear of people wanting refunds is exactly like not improving a 2019 car since people might want to return the 2018 model they just bought. I hope they're still reading this thread and understand they CAN fix the issues for future buyers.

Whether or not they change the name, releasing a fixed version will be viewed as an admission that the older versions are broken. I wish they would fix the issues. I have not purchased a SSDS3 yet -- because of the documented issues.


Same. I won't be buying a ssd3 until it is fixed. And honestly given their attitude even then I still would almost rather wait for someone else to make a fpga tgcd just to avoid dealing with their cesspool of a company.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:45 pm 


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I partially agree with Bob, but I just want to give my 2 cents on this thing.

It has been made clear since the start, over and over again, that this was a ODE + flashcart solution. The RGB thing was a thing slapped on as a bonus. It would have been 100 times better if they didn't include it, because now they would have 100% happy customers.

Unfortunately, due to how they marketed the product, they didn't stress enough that the RGB thing wasn't a thoroughly tested function. They shouldn't have talked about it and when people asked "what's this DIN connector for?", they could have replied "oh, it's a RGB output, nothing we tested properly, though".

Miscommunication. And clear misunderstanding mixed with stubborness from the customers, despite the dev team saying several times that the core of the product was the flashcart + ODE and not the RGB and audio output.
This thing blew out to such an extent that they did something which amazed me to no end: they called back the boards and shipped back new ones, no cost added, aside from shipping.
People don't realize the costs involved in such an operation for a small group and they completely won me as a customer: when they'll release anything which is even remotely of my interest, they'll have my money, day one.
Contrarily to what people think, they made 100% clear that they care about their customers and will go to such an extent to have huge losses just to make them happy. On the other hand, lots of customers have been incredibly unfriendly and didn't realize what a bold move they did when they replaced the boards and this has clearly stuck with the TO team, to the point that they'd rather just get over with this and never touch again to avoid additional backlashes.

I understand them and their move, if it was for me I wouldn't have offered a replacement program, I would have just made a 2019 version as suggested and whoever wanted to get that, they could sell on eBay their current one and get the new version.
Bob explained this process very well in his post and it's nothing absurd or out of this world.

I'm really looking forward their next product and hope everyone will take some time to sit down and analyze what happened in a proper way and understand how badly the community reacted to this.
And, on TO part, hopefully they'll learn their lesson and will market their products properly.

EDIT: and I'd like to add that, over the course of my life, I've bought several products which turned out to have subpar specs and when the new revision came out, not even big companies has ever allowed me to replace my previous revision for a new one, just for shipping costs.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:23 pm 


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I get what you're saying donluca and don't entirely disagree, but as you suggest the RGB was marketed as a core feature from very early on and that continues to this day.

I do own an SSDS3 and would not part with it, I am happy with it for the most part. The ODE + flashcart aspects of the design are fantastic. But I think it is fairly clear at this point that not enough thought or expertise was put into the design of the analogue circuitry, including the audio portion (which is basically required for a fully functioning ODE). I fully appreciate the cost incurred from the recall and the stones it takes to make such a decision, but it is worth noting concerns regarding RGB were voiced long before the product shipped and they even made changes to the product based on this. At that point it may have been advisable to seek consultancy before producing new boards.

Mostly I take issue with their attitude and public persona, rather than the actions they took. I was personally invested in this whole affair as it unraveled, and what I found when I tried to stay informed was company representatives incessantly complaining about people who were worried about the RGB output or dismissing their claims entirely. And to say that their "official" forum at the time was unsuitable for professional discourse would be a gross understatement. Recall or no, if they had come out early on and made a public announcement explaining why they could not afford to make anymore changes to the product and not engaged in any other kind of informal communication, my perception of them would be a lot different. Sure you can say that emotions got the better of them, there was a language barrier, they are just being honest and that should be commended, whatever. I don't agree. It became clear very early on that some of their comments were not going down well at all and at that point they should have stepped away from communication entirely.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:21 pm 



Joined: 26 Dec 2015
Posts: 60
>It has been made clear since the start, over and over again, that this was a ODE + flashcart solution. The RGB thing was a thing slapped on as a bonus. It would have been 100 times better if they didn't include it, because now they would have 100% happy customers.

Super SD System 3 - the '3' part of thename is how many functions it has, from their website;
Super SD System 3 is the final device for pcengine. Flashcart, RGB output, System Card and CD-ROM emulation.

Flashcart,
RGB output,
System Card and CD-ROM emulation.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:23 pm 


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donluca wrote:
I partially agree with Bob, but I just want to give my 2 cents on this thing.

It has been made clear since the start, over and over again, that this was a ODE + flashcart solution. The RGB thing was a thing slapped on as a bonus. It would have been 100 times better if they didn't include it, because now they would have 100% happy customers.

Unfortunately, due to how they marketed the product, they didn't stress enough that the RGB thing wasn't a thoroughly tested function. They shouldn't have talked about it and when people asked "what's this DIN connector for?", they could have replied "oh, it's a RGB output, nothing we tested properly, though".

Miscommunication. And clear misunderstanding mixed with stubborness from the customers, despite the dev team saying several times that the core of the product was the flashcart + ODE and not the RGB and audio output.
This thing blew out to such an extent that they did something which amazed me to no end: they called back the boards and shipped back new ones, no cost added, aside from shipping.
People don't realize the costs involved in such an operation for a small group and they completely won me as a customer: when they'll release anything which is even remotely of my interest, they'll have my money, day one.
Contrarily to what people think, they made 100% clear that they care about their customers and will go to such an extent to have huge losses just to make them happy. On the other hand, lots of customers have been incredibly unfriendly and didn't realize what a bold move they did when they replaced the boards and this has clearly stuck with the TO team, to the point that they'd rather just get over with this and never touch again to avoid additional backlashes.

I understand them and their move, if it was for me I wouldn't have offered a replacement program, I would have just made a 2019 version as suggested and whoever wanted to get that, they could sell on eBay their current one and get the new version.
Bob explained this process very well in his post and it's nothing absurd or out of this world.

I'm really looking forward their next product and hope everyone will take some time to sit down and analyze what happened in a proper way and understand how badly the community reacted to this.
And, on TO part, hopefully they'll learn their lesson and will market their products properly.

EDIT: and I'd like to add that, over the course of my life, I've bought several products which turned out to have subpar specs and when the new revision came out, not even big companies has ever allowed me to replace my previous revision for a new one, just for shipping costs.

the notion of including a "bonus" feature that doesn't work is rather comical - better to simply not include it than to add on broken garbage

furthermore, connecting the SSDEEZNUTS to a console with an internal RGB mod actually sours the RGB coming out of the console unless you manually disconnect the RGB pins from the flash cart

this takes us completely out of "undocumented/unsupported feature" and squarely into "defect"


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:38 pm 



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The other big issue was that the audio--which had to be supported, independent of video--was implemented incorrectly. It required multiple hardware and software revisions, and even now they don't have a proper solution for it. It's required installing an aftermarket amp.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:08 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
the notion of including a "bonus" feature that doesn't work is rather comical - better to simply not include it than to add on broken garbage


Doesn't work != has issues.

There were people using CRTs who didn't have any issue even with the first revision, but lots of people using scalers did.

Doesn't work means you don't get any output, which is wildly different from "Some people are getting subpar results with their setups".

About the rest, I don't think I have to reiterate anything I've said. To each their own.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:36 pm 



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donluca wrote:
Doesn't work != has issues.


I cannot disagree with that statement more. If it has known issues then clearly it "doesn't work."


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:42 pm 


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No one would ever release something which does not work. That's against any logic.
The truth is their testing was limited to CRTs they had (maybe some LCD TVs they had on hand? Can't remember), so, of course, they didn't catch all the possible cases (with those being several LCDs and, most importantly, scalers).

Again: there were people who were fine even with the first revision.

If you want to just blindingly lie to yourself and refuse to read what's not convenient to your point of view that's fine, you can just pretend that there weren't people fine with the SSD3 and even pretend that there are no people satisfied with it ever.

Not of my interest really, but you just end up looking like a fool. Nothing bad of course, we're on the internet.

I've seen way worse.

EDIT: and that's it from me, really, I gave this way too much of my time than I should have in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:49 pm 



Joined: 30 Aug 2016
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donluca wrote:
If you want to just blindingly lie to yourself and refuse to read what's not convenient to your point of view that's fine, you can just pretend that there weren't people fine with the SSD3 and even pretend that there are no people satisfied with it ever.

Not of my interest really, but you just end up looking like a fool. Nothing bad of course, we're on the internet.


Chill out man. You are over reacting and the personal attacks are unwarranted.

I understand some people don't care about the RGB and sound issues on the SSDS3. I'm happy for them. But for me, and many other people on this forum it appears, those are important features. We have legitimate documented evidence to support our opinion too.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:53 pm 



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Posts: 56
Without going back and forth, the visual noise was present on many CRT monitors. It was heightened on scalers. It was less evident on consumer grade screens however. It's also important to note that the composite video was never driven correctly and in some cases would not work. This was the cause of many of the HDRetrovision cable issues that were reported.

I think everyone can agree that the video was not where a product of this price range should have been. To me personally the video was/has been a major issue. Namely because I want to enjoy this the same way I enjoy my Duo. The audio issues, which are still present, is a more serious concern. There was no way for the device to not provide audio.

No matter where you fall on the effect of the issues and your enjoyment level, it is unfortunate to see things unfold the way they have.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:44 pm 



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Posts: 69
donluca wrote:
No one would ever release something which does not work. That's against any logic.
The truth is their testing was limited to CRTs they had (maybe some LCD TVs they had on hand? Can't remember), so, of course, they didn't catch all the possible cases (with those being several LCDs and, most importantly, scalers).

Again: there were people who were fine even with the first revision.


You're really trying to champion Terraonion but I have to disagree. Laying any of the blame on the customers who wanted the advertised features seems wrong to me. All that "we only wanted to make an ODE" nonsense only came after they screwed up the design and refused to listen to anyone.

They tested on a few consumer CRTs when their audience always included people with professional grade CRTs and upscalers. To release a product to that audience and not test the most popular solutions is indeed against any logic. Yet they did it. Their go to cable was a $10 piece of crap on Amazon. They had people lining up to offer beta testing and advice but they ignored it and ridiculed them. Where was the logic in that? You're arguing that in their heads they only wanted some of the advertised features to be considered extras to the ODE. That's not how things work. They sold us on those features. They gambled their business on a partially tested product and had to pay for it numerous times. Trying to say all that is okay because you've had other companies treat you worse is mind boggling.

All that aside it's a company that ran their help and support off the Neo Geo forums. I don't think their judgement and integrity can ever be put in a positive light after that mess.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:56 am 


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SavagePencil wrote:
The other big issue was that the audio--which had to be supported, independent of video--was implemented incorrectly. It required multiple hardware and software revisions, and even now they don't have a proper solution for it. It's required installing an aftermarket amp.


This here is the main point. Say what you will about whether RGB is a bonus feature or something explicitly meant to be part of the selling point, but the sound circuitry MUST be a part of the package. We're now learning that both CD audio and console-side audio is overloading the op-amp they used, not to mention the original missing cap on the Vref circuit.

That being said, Terra Onion can salvage the situation by coming out with a new SSDS3 that makes use of the digital video bus lines like the Uper Grafx does. You get flawless digital RGB even on systems that are riddled with noise and jail bars. They could make a new digital video version that fixes the audio circuitry as well, and finally have a product that requires no external modding.

Speaking of which, my audio bypass board should be coming back soon from OSH Park. They are currently in fabrication:

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:43 pm 


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I’d like to order a built amp as soon as they are available


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