Super SD System 3

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fernan1234
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by fernan1234 »

It would be nice if that's the root of the problem. Having to recap old PCEs as a requirement for using the SSDS3 without issues would be much less costly than having to buy a Supergrafx.
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by FBX »

I'll say this since there are so many widely different reports of noise and audio issues, it's very hard for me to believe the SSDS3 is at fault here. If the sound was so messed up as it is on that PCE track I posted, it stands to reason I would NOT be able to get a near flawless experience using it on the Super Grafx. It's gotta be console side. That's the only thing that makes sense here, especially considering I'm getting the same piss-poor results using my bypass board in the older SSDS3 on that same PCE.
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by Mobiusstriptech »

FBX wrote:I'll say this since there are so many widely different reports of noise and audio issues, it's very hard for me to believe the SSDS3 is at fault here. If the sound was so messed up as it is on that PCE track I posted, it stands to reason I would NOT be able to get a near flawless experience using it on the Super Grafx. It's gotta be console side. That's the only thing that makes sense here, especially considering I'm getting the same piss-poor results using my bypass board in the older SSDS3 on that same PCE.
One thing to keep in mind is the PC Engine does not have stereo audio circuitry. It's direct output from the HuC6280 to the expansion port. Internally it goes into the mono mixing circuit for the RF output. The CoreGrafx however does have an internal stereo amp circuit. So if there was something on the mono mixing circuit that was backfeeding, that could be a source. You could rule it out by lifting the expansion pins and pins 17 and 18 on the 6280. Then directly connecting them. That would rule out if it's in the mono mixing circuit. If you still have noise then it might be from somewhere else on the board.
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darknezz19
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by darknezz19 »

I'll Try it and report back.

EDIT: Lifted pin 18 and 17 on the 6280 and ran a jumper from 17 to the, disconnected from the PCB, L Audio OUT EXT pin. Fired her up but had the same noise still using only the left channel. I don't think leaving the right audio pin floating would be an issue, and since the noise is the exact same level as far as I can tell, a shielded wire probably isn't going to make a difference.

This was on a TG16 with RF out so assumed it has the mono mixing circuit Mobiouss spoke about.

EDIT2: I Notice pin 20 is for audio ground. I'm trying to trace where that goes but it may be floating. It's definitely not the same ground as the ground plane. Going to try to lift that and somehow connect that to the audio L and R shields. See if that helps. Edit2a: Well crap that made it worse. Out of ideas and need sleep. Edit2b: Should have went to sleep. Lifted the pad for audio ground pin 20. Can someone confirm it goes to pin 1 and 2 of ic106.
Last edited by darknezz19 on Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rtw
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by rtw »

Has anyone done any tests / comparisons between different power supplies ?

Or used a solid lab supply with extremely low ripple to perform the tests ?
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PaTaito
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by PaTaito »

rtw wrote:Has anyone done any tests / comparisons between different power supplies ?

Or used a solid lab supply with extremely low ripple to perform the tests ?
I've tried 3 different psu's each with no difference. I've also tried 2 different core2's...my rgb modded unit(which i understand isn't recommended for video) and my vanilla mint barely used unit. Both the same audio result.

Does anyone with a noisy console have access to a dbGrafx Booster to test audio that way??? If it were console side noise issues it would stand to reason that this device would also be a problem right?

I cant get my head around the fact that my previous modded ssd3 was clearly superior if we are to believe its solely down to the individual engines.
fernan1234
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by fernan1234 »

PaTaito wrote: I cant get my head around the fact that my previous modded ssd3 was clearly superior if we are to believe its solely down to the individual engines.
Maybe my console is bad enough that both old modded SSDS3 and new one bring out the noise, whereas yours is not so bad as to not benefit from the bypass board... It seems that the SSDS3 should simply carry a disclaimer that in terms of audio noise your mileage may vary based on the luck of the draw of the internal conditions of your console, which can vary a lot.

Have we had anyone post in this topic with no noise issue even when using stereo amplifiers, headphones, etc.? Maybe it's like with bad reviews prevalence, you're most likely to hear from people having negative experiences.
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by PaTaito »

fernan1234 wrote:
PaTaito wrote: I cant get my head around the fact that my previous modded ssd3 was clearly superior if we are to believe its solely down to the individual engines.
Maybe my console is bad enough that both old modded SSDS3 and new one bring out the noise, whereas yours is not so bad as to not benefit from the bypass board... It seems that the SSDS3 should simply carry a disclaimer that in terms of audio noise your mileage may vary based on the luck of the draw of the internal conditions of your console, which can vary a lot.

Have we had anyone post in this topic with no noise issue even when using stereo amplifiers, headphones, etc.? Maybe it's like with bad reviews prevalence, you're most likely to hear from people having negative experiences.

Yeah its a good point. I mean lots of people talk of the importance of recapping duo's etc...and mostly the negative effect is audio sided. Curious that it barely gets a mention when it comes to the original units though. Maybe it is indeed a culprit.

I would still like to know out of curiosity if anyone with a dbGrafx Booster/av block has experienced this kind of noise? I mean we are looking for consistency here right?
No Onions
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by No Onions »

I checked my pc engines to see if I got the same result late last night. I have a white pc engine, coregrafx, coregrafx II and a Supergrafx. The Supergrafx has an internal RGB mod so I only ran that with the SSDS3 for a couple minutes. I use a Genesis model 1 power supply for the pc engines and an original NEC power supply for my Supergrafx. I also have a Turbografx but didn't test it last night.

On my setup I do get the same noise that Firebrand posted, but I have to put my ear about 6"-12" from the speakers to hear it at the volume level I actually play at. I normally am sitting ~5' from my speakers. I happened to pick the title screen from Blazing Lazers to use as a comparison, maybe Forgotten Worlds makes more noise.

The white pc engine was the noisiest, while the coregrafx and coregrafx II sounded the same, the Supergrafx was essentially silent. So it does seem to be console dependent. In any case I can't hear it while I am actually playing a game, only when there is a static screen with no other sound playing.

I have some capacitor kits for all 3 of the pc engines that I was planning on installing anyway so I might try and do that this weekend to see if there is any difference with fresh caps. I will be keeping my SSDS3 rev B regardless, since I can't hear any bad noise in games and the ODE functionality is too good to give up.
thebigcheese
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by thebigcheese »

Mobiusstriptech wrote:
FBX wrote:I'll say this since there are so many widely different reports of noise and audio issues, it's very hard for me to believe the SSDS3 is at fault here. If the sound was so messed up as it is on that PCE track I posted, it stands to reason I would NOT be able to get a near flawless experience using it on the Super Grafx. It's gotta be console side. That's the only thing that makes sense here, especially considering I'm getting the same piss-poor results using my bypass board in the older SSDS3 on that same PCE.
One thing to keep in mind is the PC Engine does not have stereo audio circuitry. It's direct output from the HuC6280 to the expansion port. Internally it goes into the mono mixing circuit for the RF output. The CoreGrafx however does have an internal stereo amp circuit. So if there was something on the mono mixing circuit that was backfeeding, that could be a source. You could rule it out by lifting the expansion pins and pins 17 and 18 on the 6280. Then directly connecting them. That would rule out if it's in the mono mixing circuit. If you still have noise then it might be from somewhere else on the board.
If you look at the expansion port pinout, there is a mono audio return. At least on my CoreGrafx, this seems to be used to take audio from the IFU (in mono) and route it back out the regular AV jack on the CoreGrafx. I'm not sure if this would have any bearing on anything, but it does now occur to me that the white PCE and the TG16 both lack any sort of proper internal audio amplification (outside the RF modulator), so maybe there is something to that as well. Though it seems that the CoreGrafx does still experience some noise, so there must be more to it than that.
darknezz19
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by darknezz19 »

Another thing I notice is if you look at the tg16 service manual it lists some grounds on the extension port as analog ground and some as digital ground. Maybe if the shields on the audio lines were only connected to the analog grounds it might make a difference.

Also this turbo booster schematic does a lot of stuff to the audio lines before it gets to the rca red and white outputs. There is amplification ICs in the schematic on both L and R lines as well. Had a Turbo Booser but sold it long ago, if someone else has one test the audio output on SSDS3 and Turbo Booster for comparison.

https://console5.com/wiki/File:TurboBoo ... vision.png

I still need to get my audio grd pin 20 fixed so if anyone has a tg16 or pc engine open sometime can they verify pin 20 of the 6280 goes to pin 2 of IC106. The service manual and data sheet for ic106 looks like that's where it goes, but the service manual also says it goes to pin 1 too and that's definitely not true on mine. Edit: Found it, goes to pin 6 of ic106.

EDIT: FBX I notice on your audio bypass circuit for the TDA1308 the ground is connected to the positive collector and the audio in is connected to negative according to the datasheet.

https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/TDA1308.pdf

Is polarity not important here? On the audio amp of the tg16 for the RF out it fallows the negative and positive notation.

https://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/ ... C358C.html

Pin 6 is a straight connection to pin 20 of 6280, I'm thinking if I route pin 20 of 6280 to the the input reference grounds it would make a difference here. But the polarity you used has me wondering about the operation of the ic.

EDIT2: I ran L and R to the EXT out audio pins and had them disconnected from the TG16 PCB. A20 is jumped back onto pin 6 of IC106. For a moment I had a lower signal to noise ratio. Then I turned it off and on again and it was worse. Using an alligator clip for my shielded ground connection so that probably needs a better connection. Need to test some more but have to run an errand.

Edit3: I think that one moment it had lower signal to noise ratio the ssds3 froze and sd access was locked up. I still have some more ideas. I notice the power switch affects the noise if you push on it or play with it. Will try to hard wire it on and see if that helps. Also there are 2 resistors and a cap that tie in with he audio ground and affect the noise level. Will try a breadboard setup and play with the values if the power switch thing doesn't work.

Edit 3/28/2019 I've messed with a lot of variables but haven't come up with much. It's definitely coming from the console. If I disconnect the L and R audio Pins of the 6280 the sounds in the SSDS3 menu play and there is way less noise. CDDA music plays fine and there is super low noise with those two lines disconnected. FBX are you done, finito with this? Have any thoughts on it or ideas maybe? Maybe you could open up your Super Grafx and see how A20 is routed compared to the TG16 service manual? I'll keep messing around with my limited knowledge on the subject.
rayik
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by rayik »

I have a US TG16 that has been rgb modded and recapped. Using original PSU. SSD3S purchased just before B version. FBX audio bypass board installed with audio out to rca jacks. Sound output from SSD3S. Video output from TG16 mod (and not SSD3S). Audio and video fed into xrgb mini. No noise problems. Sounds fine.
fernan1234
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by fernan1234 »

rayik wrote:I have a US TG16 that has been rgb modded and recapped. Using original PSU. SSD3S purchased just before B version. FBX audio bypass board installed with audio out to rca jacks. Sound output from SSD3S. Video output from TG16 mod (and not SSD3S). Audio and video fed into xrgb mini. No noise problems. Sounds fine.
Could be the TG16 is better in this regard, that the recap helps, and/or that video output is from the console helps.

Maybe someone can send rayik a rev. B SSDS3 to see if he gets the same results with his console? That would confirm that the integrated audio board works as well as the previous solution on a well-maintained console.

edit: I can do it actually. rayik, would you be okay with me sending you my rev. B unit to compare to yours? I'll just wait until next week when I get another console to test though.
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citrus3000psi
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by citrus3000psi »

I've been out of the loop of the SSD3. Do the newest available units for purchase have the RGB video fixed? I know the audio is fixed, but not sure if the bypass is still necessary.
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by mario64 »

citrus3000psi wrote:I've been out of the loop of the SSD3. Do the newest available units for purchase have the RGB video fixed? I know the audio is fixed, but not sure if the bypass is still necessary.
From what I understand video is now good on the rev B boards. Audio, however, still seems to be an issue unless using a SuperGrafx. There is debate as to whether this is a fault of the revised SSDS3 or the consoles themselves
darknezz19
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by darknezz19 »

rayik wrote:I have a US TG16 that has been rgb modded and recapped. Using original PSU. SSD3S purchased just before B version. FBX audio bypass board installed with audio out to rca jacks. Sound output from SSD3S. Video output from TG16 mod (and not SSD3S). Audio and video fed into xrgb mini. No noise problems. Sounds fine.

Can you load Final Blaster (J) and turn your volume all the way up and listen for noise when the Namcot logo scrolls and at the title screen. Mine gets it at these screen the most it would seem. Are you using CRT speakers? Thank you.
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the Goat
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by the Goat »

Does anybody who is experiencing audio noise with the rev B SSDS3 have a real super CD-ROM^2 drive they can test with? I think we need to know if the audio output from a real super CD-ROM^2 unit has the same noise or not.
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by Mobiusstriptech »

Listening to a CD-ROM2 drive last night. Those drives make more noise than the audio buzzing.
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fernan1234
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by fernan1234 »

Yep, the laser assembly make quite a bit of mechanical noise. People brought that up at first when noticing the SD card access buzzing. The deeper problem IMO is the constant buzz/whine on crappy consoles like mine :( The Super drives are a bit more quiet. I no longer have one though.

On the other hand, the drive noises just come from the machine, but the buzz is amplified depending on your volume level and speakers/headphones. Also, it's easier to romanticize the laser assembly noises :lol:
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by evil_ash_xero »

I think I'll wait until they fix the buzz before buying.
PaTaito
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by PaTaito »

Did anyone complain of noise from the av block/dbgrafxbooster audio output?
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by FBX »

PaTaito wrote:Did anyone complain of noise from the av block/dbgrafxbooster audio output?
The noise comes from the power rails when accessing SD cards, so I seriously doubt that's going to be a fair comparison.
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by tusecsy »

Quick question. I have the previous ssds3 revision with the fbx and mobius boards installed. When hooked up tot he ossc and using 256x240 optim mode theres a ton of super noisy vertical lines on the screen and I can't really get rid of them with any of the settings. When I switch it to 4:3 mode everything looks perfect without any jailbars even (system doesnt have the jailbar fix). Any idea what the culprit is?
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by PaTaito »

FBX wrote:
PaTaito wrote:Did anyone complain of noise from the av block/dbgrafxbooster audio output?
The noise comes from the power rails when accessing SD cards, so I seriously doubt that's going to be a fair comparison.
I'm not talking about the SD card access noise, which comes and goes when things load or redbook is accessed, i'm talking about the ever present whine/buzz...Unless you are saying ALL the noise is down to the same issue? If that is indeed the case, then i'm trying to make sense of the idea that noise is suddenly thought to be console dependent? My thinking being that if the console is somehow the culprit(which i'm not arguing) then surely things like the dbgrafxbooster, and other such devices which utilize the expantion port, would be consistent with this noise issue? Out of curiosity do you know in what way the supergrafx is different/better internally other than the obvious extra space and extra GPU chip?

Obviously i'm no engineer and have limited knowledge of these systems internally...but i'm just trying to wrap my head around this.
Last edited by PaTaito on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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the Goat
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by the Goat »

PaTaito wrote:
FBX wrote:
PaTaito wrote:Did anyone complain of noise from the av block/dbgrafxbooster audio output?
The noise comes from the power rails when accessing SD cards, so I seriously doubt that's going to be a fair comparison.
I'm not talking about the SD card access noise, which comes and goes when things load or redbook is accessed, i'm talking about the ever present whine/buzz...Unless you are saying ALL the noise is down to the same issue? If that is indeed the case, then i'm trying to make sense of the idea that noise is suddenly thought to be console dependent? My thinking being that if the console is somehow the culprit(which i'm not arguing) then surely things like the dbgrafxbooster, and other such devices which utilize the expantion port, would be consistent with this noise issue? Out of curiosity do you know in what way is the supergrafx is different/better internally other than the obvious extra space and extra GPU chip?

Obviously i'm no engineer and have limited knowledge of these systems internally...but i'm just trying to wrap my head around this.
That is why I was hoping somebody would test a "bad" console with a real Super CD-ROM^2 drive. If the real drive, from thirty years ago, is able to output audio without corruption then I think it is reasonable to expect the same from a modern expansion device.
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PaTaito
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by PaTaito »

the Goat wrote:That is why I was hoping somebody would test a "bad" console with a real Super CD-ROM^2 drive. If the real drive, from thirty years ago, is able to output audio without corruption then I think it is reasonable to expect the same from a modern expansion device.
I own a proper Super CD-ROM2 system dude...it doesn't buzz with this same console. I'm not at home with my gaming stuff for at least a couple of weeks now, but as soon as i am i will be testing again to be 100% sure on that. But i certainly don't remember any audio foibles from memory.
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by FBX »

PaTaito wrote:
FBX wrote:
PaTaito wrote:Did anyone complain of noise from the av block/dbgrafxbooster audio output?
The noise comes from the power rails when accessing SD cards, so I seriously doubt that's going to be a fair comparison.
I'm not talking about the SD card access noise, which comes and goes when things load or redbook is accessed, i'm talking about the ever present whine/buzz...Unless you are saying ALL the noise is down to the same issue?
All I can say is there was NO effect in the PCE I tested when I swapped in an older revision SSDS3 with my bypass mod. Stands to reason that if my bypass mod didn't work to get rid of the noise, I'd have gotten a ton of complaints from people who ordered it. So either the consoles in question are worn out/defective, or they use an entirely different approach to expansion audio support than the Super Grafx does. However, I've already heard from people that have a Core Grafx 1/II and have told me they don't have any problems with the new rev. So where does that leave us? If my audio circuit was crap, it A: wouldn't sound superb on the Super Grafx, and B: wouldn't have worked for any other revision. I know I didn't fill bypass boards to over 100 Super Grafx users, so that can't be the scenario there.
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by PaTaito »

FBX wrote:All I can say is there was NO effect in the PCE I tested when I swapped in an older revision SSDS3 with my bypass mod. Stands to reason that if my bypass mod didn't work to get rid of the noise, I'd have gotten a ton of complaints from people who ordered it. So either the consoles in question are worn out/defective, or they use an entirely different approach to expansion audio support than the Super Grafx does. However, I've already heard from people that have a Core Grafx 1/II and have told me they don't have any problems with the new rev. So where does that leave us? If my audio circuit was crap, it A: wouldn't sound superb on the Super Grafx, and B: wouldn't have worked for any other revision. I know I didn't fill bypass boards to over 100 Super Grafx users, so that can't be the scenario there.
But on the other hand putting it all down to peoples consoles means there surely HAS to be issues consistent with this across devices...which i'm struggling to find mention of.

Why would my coregrafx2 not buzz at all with a SuperCDROM2 if the core itself is thought to be a problem? Then there is the fact that the previous audio modded SSD3 was so obviously superior on the same console i'm using now. The variance being the new SSD3 not my consoles...i even tried my RGB modded 2nd console with all 3 variations and it also only had issues with this new revision of SSD3. This is why i'm asking about the dbgrafxbooster and such devices, as without consistency surely we cannot just blame the core units and leave it at that!? But i don't know the internals as well as you guys which is why i ask.

Didn't terraonion have a component installed in the wrong place or something on the 1st version? Maybe something like this could be happening again in some units? Then again that wouldn't explain your own supergrafx being fine when others tested were not.

What a pain in the ass....god i hope that analogue/kevtris does a PC Engine project soon.
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by SavagePencil »

is TerraOnion doing anything to debug this or are they leaving this to the community
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Re: Super SD System 3

Post by the Goat »

SavagePencil wrote:is TerraOnion doing anything to debug this or are they leaving this to the community
You must be new here.
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