Datapath Vision E1 help needed:

[FBX]

So I bought one of those 'E1s' cards being sold on ebay right now, only to discover the card sent to me is just a regular E1. I'm a bit ticked off about the false advertising, and I may decide to send the card back if the seller blows me off over my complaint about it.

At any rate, I first had a heck of a time installing the card's drivers on Win 7 using the latest release from Datapath's web site. At first it wouldn't work at all, and then after a few restarts and re-installs, it suddenly started working. Here's the problem:

The NES and SNES classic seem to glitch the signal detection out on the device, causing it to forcefully down-scale to 720x480. The input resolution box is greyed out and locked. Now when I monitor the input tab and watch as I turn the NES or SNES Classic on, it first correctly assigns the resolution to 1280 x 720 for about a second, then the screen goes black again with the "No Signal" warning. Then that goes away after another second, and finally the live feed pops up with the input down-scaled to 720 x 480. This in a word: SUCKS. And apparently this seems to be a specific issue with the Classic systems on this card. The Framemeister works beautifully with it, and I'm told the OSSC does too, but I haven't gotten around to trying that yet.

Next, what's the deal with the lack of hot keys for pausing and running the live image feed? When I wanted to take a screengrab, I had to manually use the "File" tab to use the pause feature. I'm sorry, but that's crap that you can't simply use a hot key. I couldn't see any way to set up a hot key either. Also the help file is completely missing from the software installation, indicating Datapath assumed you already have the files from the CD pack-in with the card. Only problem is my card didn't come with the CD.

Lastly, this may seem a dumb question, but how do you actually record footage with this software?

Thanks for the help!

-FBX

[Fudoh]

The NES and SNES classic seem to glitch the signal detection out on the device, causing it to forcefully down-scale to 720x480. The input resolution box is greyed out and locked. Now when I monitor the input tab and watch as I turn the NES or SNES Classic on, it first correctly assigns the resolution to 1280 x 720 for about a second, then the screen goes black again with the "No Signal" warning. Then that goes away after another second, and finally the live feed pops up with the input down-scaled to 720 x 480.

I think it's actually the NES/SNES Classic that switches its output to 480p instead. This is some kind of EDID problem which is widely spread when the (S)NES classic is connected to an AVR instead of directly to the TV. Probably the same case here. I think you could work around that using a cheap EDID emulator (over here I see these for about 15 EUR).

[FBX]

yeah after testing the Framemeister and now the OSSC, I determined it HAD to be the (S)NES Classic actually reverting it's own output as a failsafe. Do let me know on the EDID emulator as I'm not sure how to use them.

In the meantime, I started doing my first obsessive settings experiments with the OSSC. I decided to see if the OSSC allowed for square pixel scaling, and BOY does it! What you see below is a completely UNEDITED screencap of my timings tweak of the line 4x mode for my VA3 Genesis:



Keep in mind I did NOTHING to that screencap. That's a completely raw picture! Hory Cit!

[Fudoh]

yeah after testing the Framemeister and now the OSSC, I determined it HAD to be the (S)NES Classic actually reverting it's own output as a failsafe. Do let me know on the EDID emulator as I'm not sure how to use them.

these are small boxes, usually HDMI powered, one HDMI in, one out and they overwrite the transmitted EDID data with something you set on the device, when you put the device between your source and the capture card. Here's one I have (merely 8 EUR plus shipping): http://www.ebay.de/itm/361219744958 (sorry about it being a german listing). I suspect that the capture card doesn't have a clear list of supported resolutions, so the (S)NES classic gets confused.

In the meantime, I started doing my first obsessive settings experiments with the OSSC. I decided to see if the OSSC allowed for square pixel scaling, and BOY does it!

actually MOST of the OSSC's scaling modes do horizontal integer scaling. Only the "generic" modes do a Framemeister-like sampling.

The main thing to keep in mind (when comparing the FM to the OSSC) is this: on the FM you never adjust the way the input is processed during the A/D stage, but instead only the way post processing (like scaling etc) is applied afterwards (which is very flexible compared to the OSSC). On the OSSC you achieve most of the image tweaks by adjusting the way the analogue signals are sampled in the first place (which is extremely flexible compared to the FM), while you're facing fixed scaling factors in the post processing stage (you can basically do nothing except choosing your output res and depending on the output/input res ratio, maybe your horizontal integer scaling factor).


Did you post your general impressions on the OSSC yet ? Definitely interested to hear your thoughts, especially with the time and effort you spent on optimizing the FM's output.

[FBX]

Did you post your general impressions on the OSSC yet ? Definitely interested to hear your thoughts, especially with the time and effort you spent on optimizing the FM's output.

Still too early to give a complete opinion on it, but right now I am loving the following:

1. Clean, noise-free solid colors.

2. OCD-level attention to features.

3. Built in indicator instead of relying on on-screen display. This let me tweak porch and sample rates without having to wait for an update on the screen.

Only a few minor gripes/wish-list items thus far:

1. I don't see any clear-cut way to integer-scale the live graphics on the horizontal axis. The 'optimized 320x240' mode didn't seem to work the way I had hoped, so I had to make my own settings to get that Sonic pic to come out as a 4x scale on both axis.

2. Once you reach a perfect horizontal intenger, there needs to be a 'nearest neighbor' setting that effectively downsamples each 4x4 plot to a single color (or 5x5 if you go line 5x).

3. Not the fault of the OSSC, but you have to do a lot of hunting to get displays and capture cards that work with it. I got sort of lucky in that this E1 was only $120 (although it was advertised as E1s which pisses me off), but I don't know what it's going to cost me to get a decent 55-inch display that accepts 4x and 5x modes, and has low lag.

[RGBSource]

1. I don't see any clear-cut way to integer-scale the live graphics on the horizontal axis. The 'optimized 320x240' mode didn't seem to work the way I had hoped, so I had to make my own settings to get that Sonic pic to come out as a 4x scale on both axis.

At a minimum, the H.Samplerate has to be tweaked. I've found that bumping the default 320 value from 426 to 427 works nicely. The problem with the Genesis is that a number of games are either 256px or 320px wide, so to avoid switching back and forth (some games like Bloodlines switch in game), you just use Generic 4:3 instead.

Also, if you haven't seen this already, check it out - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?titl ... al_timings

Yes, there's some sort of EDID issue with the SNES/NES Classics that force 480p output with the E1.

Good luck sorting 336px output from the TG16!

[FBX]

At a minimum, the H.Samplerate has to be tweaked. I've found that bumping the default 320 value from 426 to 427 works nicely. The problem with the Genesis is that a number of games are either 256px or 320px wide, so to avoid switching back and forth (some games like Bloodlines switch in game), you just use Generic 4:3 instead.

Last year, I want all out obsessive with the Genesis library and manually sorted every game that uses 320 for main gameplay into a separate folder on my X7 Mega Everdrive. This was because I prefer 320 games in square pixels, while 256 games I prefer aspect correction. So I'm just going to make a separate profile for 256 mode games like I did for the Framemeister (and probably a 3rd generic profile as well).

BTW, the seller apologized for sending me the wrong card and has already shipped the correct one. Ignore my previous rant about the false advertising, as it seems to be a case where they didn't realize there was an identical-looking card with a different spec and sent me the lower-rated one by mistake.

[Fudoh]

where they didn't realize there was an identical-looking card with a different spec and sent me the lower-rated one by mistake.

in terms of specs - what's the difference between the two versions?

[Blair]

in terms of specs - what's the difference between the two versions?

The E1 says "DGC-139A" on the circuit board, (according to the pdf datasheet). The E1S says "DGC-139C". Data throughput for the E1 is listed as 430 MB/sec, the E1S is 650 MB/sec. (also, release dates indicate that the E1 is at least two years older than the E1S)

I'm guessing that recording quality is the main difference?

[FBX]

Data throughput for the E1 is listed as 430 MB/sec, the E1S is 650 MB/sec. (also, release dates indicate that the E1 is at least two years older than the E1S)

I'm guessing that recording quality is the main difference?

Yep, on hi-def signals this becomes much more important if you want reference-quality captures. It's probably not a major difference, but I prefer to actually get what I paid for at any rate.

[Blair]

Yep, on hi-def signals this becomes much more important if you want reference-quality captures. It's probably not a major difference, but I prefer to actually get what I paid for at any rate.

definitely a good idea to contact the seller about getting the right version, question though, how are you handling audio recording (as the E series doesn't support audio, as far as I know) and what program are you using for these nice screen caps, and video recording?

I'm doing some computer upgrading later tonight and I'm thinking about adding a datapath card to my setup. (is there good driver support for Windows 10 and 7?)

[FBX]

Apparently you have to use a 3rd party application that makes use of 'DirectShow' in order to capture video footage. I was actually hoping someone here could recommend good software for me that is known to work with this card. The screenshots are a part of the basic window application for the card. You can just dump the screenshot after pausing the feed or while it is active, but both features require using the 'File' tab, and appear to not have hot keys assigned (which is pretty weak of the software not having hot key options if you ask me).

[DarkAries]

Uh no it def has directshow support. I've used the cards in amarec and obs studio. You need to install the drivers in kernel mode, where it says crossbars may be required.

[FBX]

Uh no it def has directshow support. I've used the cards in amarec and obs studio. You need to install the drivers in kernel mode, where it says crossbars may be required.

No what I meant is: The software itself appears to not have video capture options (other than single frame screenshots). The documentation that you can download for the card claims you have to use another application software for video capture.

[DarkAries]

Uh no it def has directshow support. I've used the cards in amarec and obs studio. You need to install the drivers in kernel mode, where it says crossbars may be required.

No what I meant is: The software itself appears to not have video capture options (other than single frame screenshots). The documentation that you can download for the card claims you have to use another application software for video capture.

Yeah the card;s software is strictly for viewing. It's just supposed to work with whatever software you are using. It's a card for medical and broadcasting purposes, can't cater to all markets , might as well just make it work with everything.

[FBX]

I worked out new and improved Genesis 4x profile settings on my OSSC. Edit: 4x profile for 320 mode finalized:

[GigaBoots]

I've been hacking away at the genesis OSSC settings for a while and I can't quite it to where you're at. I still have an incredibly mild halo affect (only drops brightness by 3 (out of 255)) but I feel like if I had a better understanding of analog video I could nail these settings. Do you mind sharing your sampling/adv. timing settings?


Here's my progress so far:


I only got it this far by turning off the LPF which caused a lot of errant noise as you can see. There's also incredibly minor halo-ing. It bugs me, but I could live with it. I wonder if this might be due to me using a stock Model 2 Genesis with no mods.

[korpse413]

I was looking into grabbing this card also, but looking at the manufacturers website I got turned off. When you navigate to Datapath Current Downloads > (OS) Windows > the next options are Video Wall, Frame Capture, Graphics Card, Streaming, SQX...? With Legacy Downloads offering similar confusion, VisionSwitch, RGB-PRO, Vantage, Horizon, iH, SDKs... it reminds me of Yuan / Micomsoft / Startech triad all over again.

If anyone can confirm this works in their Win10 x64 rig then I will prob pick one up

[DarkAries]

I was looking into grabbing this card also, but looking at the manufacturers website I got turned off. When you navigate to Datapath Current Downloads > (OS) Windows > the next options are Video Wall, Frame Capture, Graphics Card, Streaming, SQX...? With Legacy Downloads offering similar confusion, VisionSwitch, RGB-PRO, Vantage, Horizon, iH, SDKs... it reminds me of Yuan / Micomsoft / Startech triad all over again.

If anyone can confirm this works in their Win10 x64 rig then I will prob pick one up

It's a frame capture device. So you will find the drivers under frame capture. Also multiple people can confirm it working on win10 x64. Myself included.

[FBX]

I've been hacking away at the genesis OSSC settings for a while and I can't quite it to where you're at. I still have an incredibly mild halo affect (only drops brightness by 3 (out of 255)) but I feel like if I had a better understanding of analog video I could nail these settings. Do you mind sharing your sampling/adv. timing settings?

My Model 1 VA3 Genesis seems to have very wonky csync, so I struggled with 320 mode. The picture you see of my latest work isn't actually 'perfect'. There are sampling alignment errors, which results in faint vertical line artifacts in solid colors (these even show up in 4:3 generic modes). That was the very best I could get it though, and that was after obsessive amounts of test-juggling various LPF and sampling phase settings. I realized how with even the SNES 1CHIP and SNES mini requiring different settings, making universal profiles at this sharpness level isn't possible. Literally each system revision is going to make a unique footprint for optimal timing settings on the OSSC.

That said, here are my Genesis model 1 VA3 (trace-cut modded) settings for 320x224 res at line4x mode:

Video in Proc >>

LPF = Off

Sampling Opt >>

Sampling Phase = 90 degrees

< Advanced Timing: 320x240 >

H. Samplerate = 428
H. Synclength = 32
H. backporch = 53
H. active = 320

V. synclength = 3
V. backporch = 24
V. active = 224

Sync Options >>

Analog Sync LPF = Off

Output Options >>

Line4x mode = 320x240 optimal

For my generic 4:3 profiles, I had to do the opposite for LPF and turn on 9Mhz for video and Max for sync LPF. Even with that, I couldn't get rid of the faint vertical lines entirely. I'm thinking of experimenting with different resistance on the sync line to see if that has a positive effect.

[FBX]

My original problem with the (S)NES Classic failsafing to 480p has been solved:

Turns out my digital audio breakout box for HDMI sources also acts as an EDID emulator. I was able to hot-swap the box's output from my TV to my E1s. 720p retained! Edit: Also tested it from full shutdown, and it doesn't even require hot-swapping. It will emulate EDID by itself.

Here's a link to the specific box I use (mostly for ripping N64 music tracks using UltraHDMI):

https://www.amazon.com/ViewHD-Extractor ... B00KBHX072

FYI The NES Classic uses full RGB color space, while the SNES Classic uses limited color space.

-FBX

[Fudoh]

FYI The NES Classic uses full RGB color space, while the SNES Classic uses limited color space.

really ? I'm quite sure that the NES classis outputs in limited range as well on my setup. Maybe it supports both ranges and selects full range on your particular setup.

[FBX]

FYI The NES Classic uses full RGB color space, while the SNES Classic uses limited color space.

really ? I'm quite sure that the NES classis outputs in limited range as well on my setup. Maybe it supports both ranges and selects full range on your particular setup.

I was particularly curious about this, so I took screencaps of the SMB 3 box art in both limited and full range RGB. In limited range, the colors got crushed. Additionally in limited range, the colors in the NES emulator itself get crushed as well. I could tell this was the case when I started sampling the darkest colors, but it also happens in the brightest colors too.

The SNES Classic on the other hand was a no-brainer. The blacks are washed out as grey when you put it in full RGB mode.

[paulb_nl]

For those who are searching the Help file. They are missing from the latest release 7.17.3 but if you download 7.16.3 you can extract the files and the help files are in there. There is also a pdf file.

https://www.datapath.co.uk/datapath-arc ... /archive-5

[FBX]

For those who are searching the Help file. They are missing from the latest release 7.17.3 but if you download 7.16.3 you can extract the files and the help files are in there. There is also a pdf file.

https://www.datapath.co.uk/datapath-arc ... /archive-5

Thanks!

[paulb_nl]

Have you had any luck with video capture? I am using VirtualDub and even in the preview the brightness is way off compared to what is displayed in the Vision application window.

[FBX]

Have you had any luck with video capture? I am using VirtualDub and even in the preview the brightness is way off compared to what is displayed in the Vision application window.

OBS Studio has worked fine from my tests. Colors look identical from live feed.

[paulb_nl]

The colors in OBS on default settings looked better but not perfect. I was comparing the OSSC test pattern and the grey border color 80,80,80 became 79,79,77. White was 253, 254, 249. There was also banding visible.

After more troubleshooting I found that you have to set the Video Format to XRGB to get the right colors. All other formats result in the wrong colors.

In VirtualDub I have to select the Microsoft WDM image capture device instead of Datapath Vision and set RGB 24 pixel depth.

[DarkAries]

yeah in order to get anything accurate you have to either capture the vision window while 8-8-8 and slow is chosen, or xrgb and flipped in obs studio. by default OBS used to default to some odd colour space where everything was all blue and purplish but it seems they fixed it and now it's just yuy2 or something so you won't actually notice colours are off on first glance.

[Triple Lei]

Is this still the capture card to get? Looks like that guy on eBay is having a sale.