Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

[FBX]

And here's a definitive lossless comparison (since Higan is matching 2CHIP real hardware, I've made the comparison simpler):





So whether in 709 full or limited, it's not matching real hardware/Higan. Gamma boost only makes it worse. RGB 601 space made no difference either.

[paulb_nl]

Thanks for the comparison FBX. I am surprised that so much of the gradient is visible in Super Metroid in Full Range RGB. MLIG and DF Retro (and all others I think) both chose the Limited Range setting then. Maybe because colors look washed out in Full Range? Red is so muted in the Super Mario World letters. Or maybe the Super NT is not correctly setting the Full/Limited range flag in the HDMI infoframe? Either way the colors are messed up.

I believe Rec.601 and Rec.709 only make difference with YUV decoding. Not sure why Datapath put different RGB 601 and 709 in their software.

[FBX]

The Datapath card went with RGB 709 on auto-detect, but I believe limited is the actual intent of the Super Nt. The SNES Classic also uses limited color space, but it matches Higan (albeit with a lot of film grain noise).

[bobrocks95]

The Datapath card went with RGB 709 on auto-detect, but I believe limited is the actual intent of the Super Nt. The SNES Classic also uses limited color space, but it matches Higan (albeit with a lot of film grain noise).

Black crush is obvious on the limited range picture, it's definitely full range.

[creib]

interchangeable terms:

full / extended range / data levels (0-255 or 0-1023)
limited / Legal range / Video levels (16-235 or 64-940)

What is important to understand up-front is that all displays show black as 'black' and white as 'white. This means that regardless of the input signal, if it is correctly matched to the display's expected input, black and white will look the same. So, if a display has the option of setting the expected input to 'data' levels, or 'TV legal' levels, when correctly matched to the input signal, black and white will look identical with a TV Legal input signal, or a Data Level input signal.

the datapath card is asking what type you are feeding it

when you tell it FULL..


when you tell it LIMITED

...Maybe because colors look washed out in Full Range? Red is so muted in the Super Mario World letters.

this is the giveaway to me, red is low on a scope (16% or value of 191) so when incorrectly expecting a full signal the shadows (including reds) are lifted

[FBX]

The Datapath card went with RGB 709 on auto-detect, but I believe limited is the actual intent of the Super Nt. The SNES Classic also uses limited color space, but it matches Higan (albeit with a lot of film grain noise).

Black crush is obvious on the limited range picture, it's definitely full range.

Nope. I just tested the Super Nt on my Sony 55-inch LED display. RGB full was washed out. Limited was vibrant, and I couldn't see any crushing on the Super Metroid title screen. It's just like the SNES Classic in that regard.

Edit: Just set my Sony to 'auto-detect' color range for the Super Nt and it still chose limited mode. I did notice that due to the differences from my other full range devices, I had to turn the brightness setting up a chunk for the Super Nt in this mode. I used the 240p Test Suite's color bars to calibrate the screen with.

[bobrocks95]

The Datapath card went with RGB 709 on auto-detect, but I believe limited is the actual intent of the Super Nt. The SNES Classic also uses limited color space, but it matches Higan (albeit with a lot of film grain noise).

Black crush is obvious on the limited range picture, it's definitely full range.

Nope. I just tested the Super Nt on my Sony 55-inch LED display. RGB full was washed out. Limited was vibrant, and I couldn't see any crushing on the Super Metroid title screen. It's just like the SNES Classic in that regard.

Edit: Just set my Sony to 'auto-detect' color range for the Super Nt and it still chose limited mode. I did notice that due to the differences from my other full range devices, I had to turn the brightness setting up a chunk for the Super Nt in this mode. I used the 240p Test Suite's color bars to calibrate the screen with.

Then what's up with your capture? 2 steps of Super Metroid's gradient are being cut off on the limited range pic. A limited to full range mismatch can also make things appear artificially vibrant as you clip blacks and whites.

[FBX]

Then what's up with your capture? 2 steps of Super Metroid's gradient are being cut off on the limited range pic. A limited to full range mismatch can also make things appear artificially vibrant as you clip blacks and whites.

I think it has to do with the underlying gamma setting Kevtris is using. He did say he was going change this feature to a value instead of on or off, and maybe that will help. I just did some more testing on my TV by setting both Brightness and Color to a middle value of 50. When I checked the Super Metroid title screen on limited, the very top green band was getting crushed. The same deal in the 240 test suite color bars pattern was happening too, where the very first value was getting crushed to black. However, when switching to Full mode, everything was washed out and looked terrible. Sure you could see all the color bands, but it looked like ass. Just outside Link's house is another great example. Full mode looked washed out, Limited mode looked awesome.

Edit: Another thing I don't understand: In limited mode, my Datapath card clearly shows the upper whites getting crushed together on the Super Nt, yet my TV in the same mode still shows them as distinctive. Weird...

[Blair]

Edit: Another thing I don't understand: In limited mode, my Datapath card clearly shows the upper whites getting crushed together on the Super Nt, yet my TV in the same mode still shows them as distinctive. Weird...

FBX, what type of GPU is your computer using? (the one you have the datapath card installed with) with my AVerMedia LGX I can't get an accurate RGB picture (full or limited) without ticking these options in the GPU driver settings for my Nvidia card. I'm wondering if other people might have that issue. (also I have to use Recentral 3 to access full range, as OBS will only allow me to use limited with my setup for some reason, even though my capture device supports full range just fine)

Spoiler

Spoiler

[FBX]

My Computer is hooked up in DVI, so I don't get that first set of options you showed. In the 2nd set, It's default to let the video player decide. I can change it if you think that might help.

At any rate on my TV end, I found you can counteract the washed out look of full RGB mode by manually boosting color saturation.

My new TV settings for Super Nt:

RGB = Full

Picture = 90

Brightness = 50

Color = 57 (any higher and the TV starts to crush colors itself)

This actually looks really good now under these settings. It's not 100% perfect, but it kicks ass nonetheless.

[Wolf_]

My Computer is hooked up in DVI, so I don't get that first set of options you showed. In the 2nd set, It's default to let the video player decide. I can change it if you think that might help.

At any rate on my TV end, I found you can counteract the washed out look of full RGB mode by manually boosting color saturation.

My new TV settings for Super Nt:

RGB = Full

Picture = 90

Brightness = 50

Color = 57 (any higher and the TV starts to crush colors itself)

This actually looks really good now under these settings. It's not 100% perfect, but it kicks ass nonetheless.

I was working on color calibrating my tv and came across this video that suggests that if your tv has the option you should select rgb limited. Is that a modern console thing and retro consoles use full rgb? Also does that mean people that play both modern and retro games need to switch that setting?
https://youtu.be/myo6OScq6ak?t=9m45s

[FBX]

I was working on color calibrating my tv and came across this video that suggests that if your tv has the option you should select rgb limited. Is that a modern console thing and retro consoles use full rgb? Also does that mean people that play both modern and retro games need to switch that setting?
https://youtu.be/myo6OScq6ak?t=9m45s

It's never set in stone. I know the UltraHDMI mod for the N64 runs in full RGB mode, and setting your TV to limited will indeed crush colors on it. It in fact was the use of the UltraHDMI mod that I figured out the perfect brightness balance on my TV just so happened to be 50/100. Any lower crushes black, any higher crushes whites.

[thirdkind]

I'm a little confused by some of what I'm reading here.

Why is the Super Nt being measured against PC emulators in terms of color accuracy and shadow/highlight detail? I don't know how Higan handles RGB internally on PC monitors, but unless you're running your PC on limited RGB, emulators might not be the best reference. The limited RGB space and its associated gamma (2.2 to 2.5, depending on various factors) has its roots in the CRT world and was carried over to modern displays. Full RGB is usually the domain of PCs. An actual SNES sending RGB to a calibrated display (CRT or otherwise) would make a better reference for video accuracy.

The fact that the full RGB signal on the Super Nt looks washed out is an indicator that limited RGB is the correct setting; the black floor is meant to be at 16 with any detail below that being hidden by your display. Changing brightness, contrast, and color saturation might cause some remapping in your display that could cause banding or other artifacts.

It's quite possible Higan is revealing shadow and highlight detail that was never intended to be seen, but that would be odd on a gaming console where every pixel is deliberately placed.

[paulb_nl]

The Datapath card went with RGB 709 on auto-detect, but I believe limited is the actual intent of the Super Nt. The SNES Classic also uses limited color space, but it matches Higan (albeit with a lot of film grain noise).

The output of the Super NT is Full Range. As stated Limited Range is 16-235 So black is 16 and full white is 235. So it cannot be Limited Range because the Full Range captures have black as 0 and various colors are 255. Although white is 246. The gradient in Full Range capture of Super Metroid starts with 0->6->14.

...Maybe because colors look washed out in Full Range? Red is so muted in the Super Mario World letters.

this is the giveaway to me, red is low on a scope (16% or value of 191) so when incorrectly expecting a full signal the shadows (including reds) are lifted

People are forgetting that this is not just a Full/Limited range mismatch. First the Super NT is processing the colors incorrectly and that is why the colors are off in both ranges. Red is just processed worse then other colors.

Edit: Just set my Sony to 'auto-detect' color range for the Super Nt and it still chose limited mode. I did notice that due to the differences from my other full range devices, I had to turn the brightness setting up a chunk for the Super Nt in this mode. I used the 240p Test Suite's color bars to calibrate the screen with.

Aha! Wrong infoframe flag confirmed. The Super NT is sending out that its outputting Limited Range while in fact its outputting Full Range. In Limited Range mode your Sony TV is just preserving < 16 levels instead of just dropping them and by increasing the brightness you get them back.

Here is the comparison with color values added. In Full Range the red color in the red letter is too weak and the green and blue are too strong. However red in the sky is too strong. Blue in the blue letter is 254 and black is 0,0,0.

[Wolf_]

I was working on color calibrating my tv and came across this video that suggests that if your tv has the option you should select rgb limited. Is that a modern console thing and retro consoles use full rgb? Also does that mean people that play both modern and retro games need to switch that setting?
https://youtu.be/myo6OScq6ak?t=9m45s

It's never set in stone. I know the UltraHDMI mod for the N64 runs in full RGB mode, and setting your TV to limited will indeed crush colors on it. It in fact was the use of the UltraHDMI mod that I figured out the perfect brightness balance on my TV just so happened to be 50/100. Any lower crushes black, any higher crushes whites.

Huh, sounds like one of those "rabbit hole" scenarios to me where the more you look into it the more convoluted things will get because there isn't going to be any correct answer lol. I just checked my tcl p607 display and it doesn't have any rgb mode at all. (Unless you install the roku app but you can only install it if you have a roku channel set up on your tv so I'm thinking any changes made in the app would only change settings on the roku channel).

Also most color calibration tutorials say to set the picture to movie mode and the color scheme to warm but when I tested that out my god did it look bad. Evidently movie means "DC movie" because everything looked dreary and depressing and when I applied the warm color scheme on top of that it just smeared a layer of what I'm going to call "old urine yellow" over everything. It looked incredibly better when set to "Normal" for both the picture and color. The colors look great without being over-saturated like in "vibrant mode". I'm told color scheme is really just an opinion thing so maybe I simply have terrible/uncommon taste but with the color and picture on Normal everything just "pops" without being artificially bright or super depressing.

Also I found this great test image for dialing in the proper brightness & contrast levels:
https://www.photofriday.com/info/calibrate

(and holy hell my sharpness was set to 50 or 60 out of the box, no wonder why it looked like none of my games had anti-aliasing)

[FBX]

@ Paul, I already pretty much figured out the Super Nt must be running at Full RGB mode. I mentioned this in later posts, so you didn't need to pick apart my earlier tests. But yeah, increasing the display's color saturation makes it look a lot better.

[paulb_nl]

so you didn't need to pick apart my earlier tests.

Not sure what you mean by this. I am just trying to document and pinpoint whats exactly going wrong using your captures.

Saw your color bars captures at atariage. Those show pretty well whats going wrong.

[Fudoh]

For us Europeans who might prefer to use an alternative power supply: what's the output spec of the included power adapter ? 1A or 2A ?

[Wolf_]

Completed my Super Nt checklist:
1) Cleaned controllers and Multitap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxgDwkuPhhg

Spoiler

Got these for cheap off ebay from a guy evidently named "Stu". He should be tried for war crimes because holy crap it looks like someone spilled pop on these 2 decades ago and just put em in storage and over the years it became this sticky brown stain.
To clean them I used 99% Isopropyl Alcohol, a crap ton of napkins for the outside/buttons, some q-tips for the hard to reach places like screw holes and small indents, and a microfiber cloth for the pcb to avoid leaving anything behind that could cause connection issues or a short later. Also I have an Ifixit kit but all you need is a small phillips head screwdriver.
Some suggestions I have are: Be careful around stickers with isopropyl, it can dissolve glue. Also be careful around certain paints/plastics as it can eat them away but is fine on 99% of them. I find rubbing a bit with a napkin coated in it and then checking to see if the napkin has anything you don't want to clean off on it is a sufficient enough test. Also if you've never screwed anything together before do not fully tighten your screws at first, just do them about 75% of the way, switch to a screw on the opposite end, repeat. Then when all of them are in you can tighten them up but be careful not to overtighten to avoid stripping them or drilling them in too deep.





Project took about 2 hours to clean the Multitap and 4 controllers and take the controllers apart and clean every button and the pcb. When finished everything looked and functioned like it was brand new:

2) Cleaned all games (All my carts were clean so no shocking before/after pictures)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdYLw_sMpY8
Protip: If you have crud over your contact pins and they really need to be scrubbed off use a pencil eraser, it works wonders. Just make sure to get all the eraser bits out. (obviously it is much easier to do this if you open the cart up)

3) Made sure my Retro Receiver was on the latest firmware (1.30 as of 02/13/18)
http://support.8bitdo.com/ (Click firmware at the top of the page)

4) Made sure I had the latest Super Nt firmware ready to go on my sd card
https://support.analogue.co/hc/en-us/ar ... pdate-v4-0

5) Calibrated my display for the ideal brightness and contrast levels and set it to my preferred viewing mode (I feel Normal picture and normal color looks the best but all the pros suggest movie picture and warm colors so I'm probably doing something wrong but I like it my way)
https://www.photofriday.com/info/calibrate

[Fudoh]

Ok, finally spent some time with the Super Nt. While all the reviews focus on the positive aspects of the systems (and I agree with these 100% - it's a fantastic device), I wanted to call out a few point which I dislike so far (mostly about the video scaling and scanlines):


On the hardware side I miss that the controllers "snap in" like they do on the original SNES/SFC. I'm using original SFC controllers and they sit a bit loose in their connectors. Not to a degree that they fall out, but if you pulled the cable, the controllers disconnect before the system itself moves.

The interpolation engine is a bit on the soft side. On 480p (here especially) and 720p you get visibly softer results than by using a Framemeister or an OSSC. At 1080p it's alright, but I think it could still have been better. I think Pixellate on retroarch does a better job, especially on 720p. Simple bilinear filtering with an integer prescale of 3x or 4x looks better as well (e.g. on Mednafen). From memory I think the SNES classic might do a slightly better job at 720p as well (but I would to reconfirm that).

480p uses VESA output timings, which can be a bit harder to manage on modern TVs than SMTPE 480p timings. The 4:3 option in the menu is made for 16:9 output (which doesn't make much sense for 480p output, since you get significantly lower resolution on your active 4:3 area), so to get fullscreen 4:3 you actually have to use advanced options and max out the hoizontal resolution slider.

Scanlines on 1080p are not usable in any form.

I think scanlines are applied as an overlay after the interpolation, which isn't the best approach, since they always feel synthetic compared to the background. The TV's scaling (from 720p to 1080p or 4K) will help with this, but there are better ways to implement them.

Scanlines come with an extra (and non defeatable) gamma boost, which doesn't look great (too much brightness in low light areas, which makes the picture look washed out a bit). It's about the same as the regular gamma boost (you can tell by setting the scanlines to 0 depth, but still enabling them in the menu).

The vertical interpolation causes the pixels to bleed into the adjacent ones behind the scanlines. This looks bad, so you have to disable to vertical interpolation when you want proper scanlines in 720p (wouldn't be an issue if the scanlines would be applied before the interpolation).

The scanline depth slider works somehwere between and about 80, but doesn't do anything between 80 and 255. Also the maximum scanline depth is still quite bright. You can't achieve the same scanline depth as you can on the FM or OSSC.


Should all be fixable of course In it's current form the Super Nt is clearly geared towards 1080p users who like their pixels. I very much prefer 720p with scanlines (on both the FM and the OSSC) and the Super Nt is not QUITE there yet, when it comes to replacing a SNES 1CHIP + OSSC combo. It's very close though!

[dylanlip]

I was working on color calibrating my tv and came across this video that suggests that if your tv has the option you should select rgb limited. Is that a modern console thing and retro consoles use full rgb? Also does that mean people that play both modern and retro games need to switch that setting?

For the most part, you'll want RGB "Full" for just about any game, with one or two 5th/6th gen consoles maybe being an exception. Calibrators will typically talk about using the Limited/"Low Black" setting when discussing & setting YCC (For film,tv,video content)

Also most color calibration tutorials say to set the picture to movie mode and the color scheme to warm but when I tested that out my god did it look bad. Evidently movie means "DC movie" because everything looked dreary and depressing and when I applied the warm color scheme on top of that it just smeared a layer of what I'm going to call "old urine yellow" over everything. It looked incredibly better when set to "Normal" for both the picture and color. The colors look great without being over-saturated like in "vibrant mode". I'm told color scheme is really just an opinion thing so maybe I simply have terrible/uncommon taste but with the color and picture on Normal everything just "pops" without being artificially bright or super depressing.

Nope, not at all. The reason "movie" & "warm2/warm" is recommended is because it (typically) provides the best color-balance for the grayscale before you begin the actual calibration. The "piss" look is typical for the adjusting eye as it's used to heavily blued whites/grays. Remember that your eyes can always decieve. That's why colorimeters & spectrophotometers exist.

If you guys are willing to truly go down the rabbit hole of calibration as I did years ago, ColorHCFR is free software and the i1D3 colorimeter is pretty reasonable. (There are also other resonably priced colorimeters but the i1D3 seems like a good mesh of price/perf, but again, to each their own)

It's not simply just an issue of to much blue or not enough red. The colors are off depending on the RGB color combination. For example the red letters in the Super mario World title screen have not enough red and not enough blue but the blue sky has too much red and too much blue.

[[[Going to rewrite my explanation, as I think I found a better answer.]]]

[dylanlip]

I do not have the Super NT in my hands yet, but I intend on checking the accuracy of the hardware grayscale with my i1D3. If you can, use the 240p Test Suite to check for yourself, as there's a color checker test, where you can check anything from 0,0,0 on up. Obviously it should match up when recorded, and if not, we know where something is amiss.

Separately, to those saying Full Mode looks "washed out", I might suggest one major detail to check/correct/calibrate first. Gamma. "Washed out" colors disappear when you head up from 2.2(Typical) Gamma into 2.3(EBU) and 2.4(CRT/Current production standard) gamma. Of course, setting Gamma goes hand in hand with calibrating grayscale, so again, rabbit hole and all that (If you're willing). This is why a gamma slider might be the one needed thing (If at all), since many of you are running different gammas, the desired levels to compensate for your current gamma will be different. I'll also be checking this out, to see if the SNT was actually intended for 2.35/2.4 gamma.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, the recorded difference between it and Higan may have to do with that. (Higan possibly outputting levels prepared for 2.2 gamma, and SNT possibly for 2.4, but I will be checking to make sure.)

[thirdkind]

@ Paul, I already pretty much figured out the Super Nt must be running at Full RGB mode. I mentioned this in later posts, so you didn't need to pick apart my earlier tests. But yeah, increasing the display's color saturation makes it look a lot better.

If your TV is set to full RGB and the Super Nt looks washed out, that's usually a sign that the device is outputting limited RGB. If it looks good in limited RGB (which you said it did), then that's probably where it should be.

I'll have my Super Nt today and will share my findings.

[paulb_nl]

I do not have the Super NT in my hands yet, but I intend on checking the accuracy of the hardware grayscale with my i1D3. If you can, use the 240p Test Suite to check for yourself, as there's a color checker test, where you can check anything from 0,0,0 on up. Obviously it should match up when recorded, and if not, we know where something is amiss.

Separately, to those saying Full Mode looks "washed out", I might suggest one major detail to check/correct/calibrate first. Gamma. "Washed out" colors disappear when you head up from 2.2(Typical) Gamma into 2.3(EBU) and 2.4(CRT/Current production standard) gamma. Of course, setting Gamma goes hand in hand with calibrating grayscale, so again, rabbit hole and all that (If you're willing). This is why a gamma slider might be the one needed thing (If at all), since many of you are running different gammas, the desired levels to compensate for your current gamma will be different. I'll also be checking this out, to see if the SNT was actually intended for 2.35/2.4 gamma.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, the recorded difference between it and Higan may have to do with that. (Higan possibly outputting levels prepared for 2.2 gamma, and SNT possibly for 2.4, but I will be checking to make sure.)

FBX already posted a capture of the 240p suite color bar test over at Atariage. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242970 ... try3961256

Changing the Gamma won't cause a color shift like this. In that capture, the red bars are weakest and contain green, the green bars are stronger and contain red and blue is even stronger and clipped. However the grayramp is perfect balanced, just a bit weak. This strongly hints at wrong YUV encoding/decoding going on inside the Super NT.

Btw FBX has posted a extensive capture comparison between Higan, SNES Classic, SNES Junior, SNES 1CHIP and APU SNES in this thread. They all look extremely similar so Higan is very accurate to the original SNES RGB output.

[djjimmyjames]

I was seriously considering one of these but I just might be going the scart to hdmi route.

[evil_ash_xero]

Could someone inform Kevin that bilinear filtering is an option in almost every emulator?
I don't know why we get these hideous HQ type filters, over that.

Also, any idea when the gray color ones may be back in stock? Black looks cool, but not with my SNES controllers.

[Fudoh]

Could someone inform Kevin that bilinear filtering is an option in almost every emulator?

interpolation is enabled by default and it's just that. If you lower the output resolution you get what you want. It's what I mentioned above: compared to other setups like the Framemeister or the OSSC, the Nt's output is softer due to the interpolation. 480p from the Nt along with enabled interpolation is likely the look you want.

[FBX]

I made a breakthrough ( I believe) in what might be the problem with the Super Nt's colors. I think it's something to do with the conversion formula stretching the colors into an 8-bit format.

Take a look at the grayscale distribution in Higan versus the Super Nt:



Higan applies a uniform repeating pattern of 8, 8, 8, 9 to evenly distribute the colors in the full 0 - 255 range. Meanwhile the Super Nt has a weird stretch in the blacks and a pinch in the whites. Furthermore, the Super Nt's range is condensed to 0 - 245, which explains the washed out appearance.

I've sent a link to the image to Kevtris in the hopes this might trigger an idea on how to better convert the colors to 8-bit format like Higan does.

[Fudoh]

Meanwhile the Super Nt has a weird stretch in the blacks and a pinch in the whites

that's likely the result of some type of gamma adjustment (after all, that's its purpose). I wouldn't be surprised of gamme didn't behave neutral even with the gamma boost turned off.

Furthermore, the Super Nt's range is condensed to 0 - 245, which explains the washed out appearance

maybe we have a different understanding of "washed out". You usually get a washed out image when the black levels are raised. By ending the range at 245/255 you get slightly muted whites, but that's about it. The washed out image effect is more likely caused by the increased gamma in the lower brightness areas (which you've shown above).

[FBX]

maybe we have a different understanding of "washed out". You usually get a washed out image when the black levels are raised. By ending the range at 245/255 you get slightly muted whites, but that's about it. The washed out image effect is more likely caused by the increased gamma in the lower brightness areas (which you've shown above).

Actually the washed out look I'm seeing is in the upper range, and this is revealed in the step pattern. Notice in the upper end, you get a lot of 7's and 6's, meaning the contrast is less on the Super Nt for the upper range than it is on Higan. In fact, the lower range has stronger contrast on the Super Nt over Higan, while the upper end has weaker.