Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

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Windfish
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Windfish »

And this is where the headache of retro-gaming rears its ugly head, haha - latency. My Life in Gaming and some other reputable YouTubers say that there is no discernible latency with the retro receivers. All things being equal, I trust gamers on forums more than I do YouTube personalities, though. Shame.
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Guspaz
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Guspaz »

There were benchmarks published on RetroRGB for the m30, since it was a good opportunity to compare two outwardly identical controllers, one with 2.4 and one with BT:

https://www.retrorgb.com/krikzz-joyzz-v ... sting.html

The results were, and average of 3.6ms for the 2.4, and 21ms for the BT, but there was a big difference in the consistency. The 2.4 controller had a range of 1.95ms to 6ms, while the BT controller ranged from 2.9ms to 38ms.

I'm making a big assumption that the 2.4GHz SN30 controller has the same latency characteristics as the 2.4 GHz M30 controller, but I think it's a reasonable assumption... though the SN30/wiimote's more complex console connection (I2C bus) may add additional latency versus the M30/Genesis weird state machine used by the 6-button controller.

To use the SN30, I use a RaphNet classic-to-snes adapter, which is reported by RaphNet to add a maximum of 4ms of latency. So, around 8ms total, still better than the BT one, particularly for latency stability.

I did find a bug (well, oversight?) with this setup, however. If you push down+select on an SN30, it sends a wiimote home button press, since that's the button to open a menu on a SNES Classic. However, the raphnet adapter, which specifically lists support for both the SN30 and the Super Nt, doesn't map the wiimote home button back to down+select, so down+select is basically blocked from reaching the real SNES. Not a problem on a SNES, where that combo isn't really used, but kind of a problem on the Super Nt, which uses down+select for its menu. So long story short, I had to change the Super Nt menu shortcut to something else (which I've forgotten, but it was like left+select or something).
Windfish
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Windfish »

^Thanks for the reference. I went ahead and ordered the Retro Receivers, just to get a personal sense of how acceptable the lg is. We'll see...
Windfish
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Windfish »

Incidentally, before I scour this thread, does anyone have their settings published for the Super NT?
H6rdc0re
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by H6rdc0re »

Windfish wrote:Incidentally, before I scour this thread, does anyone have their settings published for the Super NT?
Look for Firebrandx settings on youtube or google. He has the best settings. Otherwise use 6x integer scaling on the horizontal axis 1536 (6x256) and 5x on the vertical axis 1200 (5x240). Turn off all interpolation. Nothing is produces a sharper image but you’ll lose a couple of pixels on the top and bottom of the screen but nothing to get upset about.
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Larrs888
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Larrs888 »

Does anyone know when a new jb firmware will be released to address the regression bug that prevents video settings being correctly loaded on boot if not running a cart right away?

Thanks
Windfish
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Windfish »

H6rdc0re wrote:
Windfish wrote:Incidentally, before I scour this thread, does anyone have their settings published for the Super NT?
Look for Firebrandx settings on youtube or google. He has the best settings. Otherwise use 6x integer scaling on the horizontal axis 1536 (6x256) and 5x on the vertical axis 1200 (5x240). Turn off all interpolation. Nothing is produces a sharper image but you’ll lose a couple of pixels on the top and bottom of the screen but nothing to get upset about.
I looked him up. He prefers his picture without scanlines, and I'm the opposite, haha.

I finally set it all up today - 8 systems connected to my LG C9 OLED! Cable management and unit placement was really quite an effort, but the real work begins: fiddling with picture settings!

Scanlines look super weird in 1080p. I am wondering - anyone know of any good settings for scanlines? And I guess I have to choose between perfect integer scaling and aspect correction? Why would I choose one over the other?
fernan1234
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by fernan1234 »

Windfish wrote:
I looked him up. He prefers his picture without scanlines, and I'm the opposite, haha.

I finally set it all up today - 8 systems connected to my LG C9 OLED! Cable management and unit placement was really quite an effort, but the real work begins: fiddling with picture settings!

Scanlines look super weird in 1080p. I am wondering - anyone know of any good settings for scanlines? And I guess I have to choose between perfect integer scaling and aspect correction? Why would I choose one over the other?
If scanlines are a priority for you I'd suggest trying out 720p, it'll be a softer picture but I found scanlines to look by far best on it when I was using a C8+OSSC.

Also, the processing that the LG OLEDs do on non-game modes actually works surprisingly well in creating CRT-like scanlines (uneven thickness based on brightness), at the cost of a bit more lag.
Windfish
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Windfish »

Contrary to popular opinion, I think scanlines look just fine on 1080p, provided you make some adjustments. FirebrandX's settingsfor 1080p are an excellent base on which to build, so start there. For scanlines, I have been using this forum post as a guideline. The scanlines are thick, uniform - in both appearance and spacing. The only problem seems to be screen brightness, or lack thereof. The screen becomes noticeably darker after you make these scanline adjustments, which is just as much a problem for 720p scanlines.

The forum post above provides options that help make up for the darkness, and while they do help, the difference might not be enough depending on your personal taste and the ambient lighting of your room. As for me, I am trying to find ways to boost the brightness/vividness. I have an OLED panel, and there's an option for OLED Light that does the trick beautifully, but I need to do some research and see what adverse effects could happen if I boost this setting too much.

To that end, anyone have an OLED panel? What's your OLED Light setting at?
shroom2k
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by shroom2k »

Windfish wrote:Contrary to popular opinion, I think scanlines look just fine on 1080p, provided you make some adjustments. FirebrandX's settingsfor 1080p are an excellent base on which to build, so start there. For scanlines, I have been using this forum post as a guideline. The scanlines are thick, uniform - in both appearance and spacing. The only problem seems to be screen brightness, or lack thereof. The screen becomes noticeably darker after you make these scanline adjustments, which is just as much a problem for 720p scanlines.

The forum post above provides options that help make up for the darkness, and while they do help, the difference might not be enough depending on your personal taste and the ambient lighting of your room. As for me, I am trying to find ways to boost the brightness/vividness. I have an OLED panel, and there's an option for OLED Light that does the trick beautifully, but I need to do some research and see what adverse effects could happen if I boost this setting too much.
That's an interesting link, Windfish.

Personally, I disagree that reducing Sub-brightness below 140 is pointless, as the linked post says. In fact, I go as low as 20. In this way, scanlines are very faint, but still noticeable and give the image more sharpness and better motion compared to non-scanline look.

In fact, I think that thick and dark scanlines are not CRT-like at all. On CRT, the natural bloom softens them up a lot, in some areas even making them unnoticeable. So lighter hybrid scanlines look way more natural to me on modern flat screens.
BONKERS
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by BONKERS »

So I was watching Otaku No Video recently and near the end spotted this.

Clearly this is a SuperNT right?
http://u.cubeupload.com/MrBonk/IMG20190823225600.jpg :wink:
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evil_ash_xero
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Just curious (I haven't read everything, so I might have missed it).... Does the SuperNT have any lag? Like, even sub 1 frame? Especially when using the analogue adapter.
I have a Super NES Junior hooked up, but a few games have weird visual issues (Magical Pop'N). So, I use my SuperNT for that. Just wondering if there is any difference in
response time. I'm using a wired SNES controller.
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Josh128
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Josh128 »

Is this still being produced? Whats the current going price?
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Guspaz
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Guspaz »

Yes, and they just had a batch of the Super Nt go up for sale in early April. They still cost $190 USD.

Analogue explained it in a blog post. If a product on their store says "out of stock", it means that they plan to make more. If it says "sold out", it's gone forever. You can read more here: https://support.analogue.co/hc/en-us/ar ... rt-2-22-21
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by TooBeaucoup »

evil_ash_xero wrote:Just curious (I haven't read everything, so I might have missed it).... Does the SuperNT have any lag? Like, even sub 1 frame? Especially when using the analogue adapter.
I have a Super NES Junior hooked up, but a few games have weird visual issues (Magical Pop'N). So, I use my SuperNT for that. Just wondering if there is any difference in
response time. I'm using a wired SNES controller.
This portion from My Life in Gaming explains it all.

https://youtu.be/d_OW_t9RXEM?t=1016
shroom2k
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by shroom2k »

evil_ash_xero wrote:Does the SuperNT have any lag? Like, even sub 1 frame? Especially when using the analogue adapter.
evil_ash_xero wrote:I'm using a wired SNES controller.
If you play on CRT via the Analogue DAC, and with a wired controller, there is no lag at all. It should be exactly the same as the original system.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

shroom2k wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:Does the SuperNT have any lag? Like, even sub 1 frame? Especially when using the analogue adapter.
evil_ash_xero wrote:I'm using a wired SNES controller.
If you play on CRT via the Analogue DAC, and with a wired controller, there is no lag at all. It should be exactly the same as the original system.
Awesome. Thanks.

One interesting thing from the video.. The NT runs at 60.00 hz, while the original hardware runs at 60.08 hz. There's a way to get it running at the same speed, but it costs you a frame of input delay.
Does the DAC do anything to this? Am I running it at 60.00 hz by default, or is it running at 60.08 hz?
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by EnragedWhale »

When using the DAC it will run at the original 60.08hz with no lag.

Over HDMI you have 3 options, zero delay, single buffered and fully buffered.

Only zero delay is exactly 60hz, the others retain the original 60.08hz. Single buffered will tear but introduce no lag. Fully buffered is between 0-16ms of lag and and skips a frame every few seconds. Of course zero delay introduces no lag.
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Fudoh
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Fudoh »

Your statement is misleading.

On HDMI the Super NT (and Mega SG) can't be persuaded to run at anything but 60Hz output. It's just the internal speed that's changing. On zero delay the speed is adjusted to match the output, but the others run internally at a different speed than the output refresh rate - hence the frame skip every once in a while or the tearing.

And that's a real shame, because there's really no reason not to offer the original 60.08Hz on the HDMI output.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by shroom2k »

Fudoh wrote:And that's a real shame, because there's really no reason not to offer the original 60.08Hz on the HDMI output.
I think Analogue strictly don't want to accept the risk of some less knowledgeable users complaining about their premium console having one incompatible mode. It might lead to extra support tickets, or worse reviews, who knows.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by EnragedWhale »

Fudoh wrote:Your statement is misleading.

On HDMI the Super NT (and Mega SG) can't be persuaded to run at anything but 60Hz output. It's just the internal speed that's changing. On zero delay the speed is adjusted to match the output, but the others run internally at a different speed than the output refresh rate - hence the frame skip every once in a while or the tearing.

And that's a real shame, because there's really no reason not to offer the original 60.08Hz on the HDMI output.
You are of course correct. Thanks for the clarification :D
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evil_ash_xero
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Fudoh wrote:Your statement is misleading.

On HDMI the Super NT (and Mega SG) can't be persuaded to run at anything but 60Hz output. It's just the internal speed that's changing. On zero delay the speed is adjusted to match the output, but the others run internally at a different speed than the output refresh rate - hence the frame skip every once in a while or the tearing.

And that's a real shame, because there's really no reason not to offer the original 60.08Hz on the HDMI output.
But with the DAC, and on a CRT, it will be running at 60.08hz? That's how I currently have it hooked up.
strayan
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by strayan »

Windfish wrote:Contrary to popular opinion
I don’t think this is contrary to popular opinion. 3x on a 720p TV or 5x on a 1080p/1200p display is going to give you even scan-lines.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Guspaz »

I think the 50% poly scanlines on the 5X have proven that you can do great scanlines on non-integer scaling factors, though. They're the best looking scanlines I've ever seen out of a scaler, integer or otherwise. The 90% poly and 100% integer, though, don't appeal to me at all.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by EnragedWhale »

evil_ash_xero wrote:
Fudoh wrote:Your statement is misleading.

On HDMI the Super NT (and Mega SG) can't be persuaded to run at anything but 60Hz output. It's just the internal speed that's changing. On zero delay the speed is adjusted to match the output, but the others run internally at a different speed than the output refresh rate - hence the frame skip every once in a while or the tearing.

And that's a real shame, because there's really no reason not to offer the original 60.08Hz on the HDMI output.
But with the DAC, and on a CRT, it will be running at 60.08hz? That's how I currently have it hooked up.
Correct
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

EnragedWhale wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:
Fudoh wrote:Your statement is misleading.

On HDMI the Super NT (and Mega SG) can't be persuaded to run at anything but 60Hz output. It's just the internal speed that's changing. On zero delay the speed is adjusted to match the output, but the others run internally at a different speed than the output refresh rate - hence the frame skip every once in a while or the tearing.

And that's a real shame, because there's really no reason not to offer the original 60.08Hz on the HDMI output.
But with the DAC, and on a CRT, it will be running at 60.08hz? That's how I currently have it hooked up.
Correct
Thank for the info.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by bobrocks95 »

Some seemingly minor fixes released for the Super NT today. Analogue is claiming "all known bugs fixed" - https://twitter.com/analogue/status/1654144815226064896

https://www.analogue.co/support/super-nt/firmware/5.1
  • Fixed screen tearing when using fully buffer mode.
  • Fixed spaces in menus so they are highlighted now for consistency.
  • Fixed Game Genie: turn on "launch system timing" in hardware menu.
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  • Fixed Wing Commander drum sound.
  • Fixed Romancing SaGa 3 battle sound.
  • Fixed Final Fantasy 2/4 final boss sound.
  • Fixed Chrono Trigger final boss sound.
  • Fixed Harukanaru Augusta 3 graphics issue.
  • Fixed Power Soukoban graphics issue.
  • Fixed Mega Lo Mania shield graphic.
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  • Fixed 72hr Kaizo audio bug - enable SPC RAM startup state in the hardware menu.
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
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