Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

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FBX
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by FBX »

I've known byuu (author of the most accurate SNES emulation ever coded) for several years now, and was there cheering him on when he released his very first betas of bsnes that didn't even have sound. He's got a pretty good final comment on the subject of software emulation versus FPGA:

Both higan and the Super Nt are projects that are written out in source code, stored in text files, that are processed by another tool to be converted into their final, runnable forms. Both higan and the Super Nt attempt to recreate the original behavior of the Super Nintendo. Both higan and the Super Nt are based off reverse engineering work to try to reproduce what the original Super Nintendo did, but neither are exact implementations, and there is no reason to claim that one can be more accurate than the other ever possibly could be -- eg one could always be as accurate as the other. Both software emulators and FPGA implementations can have similar latencies, but FPGA typically wins out by a wide margin because modern PC operating systems and hardware add huge amounts of additional latency.
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Tatsuya79
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Tatsuya79 »

As always, don't drink up the usual marketing fables and wait for some honest feedback from people who know what to test.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Wolf_ »

Tatsuya79 wrote:As always, don't drink up the usual marketing fables and wait for some honest feedback from people who know what to test.
Fables? Nothing Analogue has said has been untrue or even an exaggeration. It isn't like they are claiming it can cure cancer or anything. Saying that it is a 1080p hdmi cycle accurate fpga snes with digital quality audio isn't even the most impressive aspects of the console. I mean yea those features are swell but they haven't even confirmed if it will get a jailbreak, support fx chips internally, or what additional cores the new hardware might be possible to run if it does get jailbroken. I actually find it pretty annoying how badly they are underselling what it can do.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Woozle »

Both software and hardware approaches are just approximations of the original snes. Hardware/fpga solutions have the benefit that their error is below human perception, doesn't make it not emulation.

Even if your logic/hdl is an exact description of the snes chip transistor schematic, it's still going to be sliced, diced, and mapped onto the fpga lookup table fabric. One technology mimicking another. (Unlike what some were implying in the byuu forum thread...)

Call it what it is and be proud of how close we can get to a real snes.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by FinalBaton »

lettuce wrote:Im just glad i did 80% of my SNES collecting back in 2004 time, my best haul was a 40 game lot on eBay from the USA, included such titles as Sunset Riders, Hagane, Demons crest, Wild Guns, Knights Of The Round, Captain Commando, Batman The Animated Series etc all CIB for like £170 shipped to the UK.....good times :D
Man... I'm pretty jealous, not gonna lie. I wish I had started collecting back then too. Unfortunately I started collecting recently, like 2-3 years ago.
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Einzelherz »

Just a semi related tidbit about the clear advantage of an eject mechanism - your labels survive. Especially with a cart as wide as the SNES' which is hard to grasp from the sides one handed.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by DejahThoris »

Einzelherz wrote:Just a semi related tidbit about the clear advantage of an eject mechanism - your labels survive. Especially with a cart as wide as the SNES' which is hard to grasp from the sides one handed.
It's a good thing most people have two hands.
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Einzelherz
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Einzelherz »

Ableist.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Bratwurst »

Einzelherz wrote:Ableist.
If you're only got one hand, then you're likely playing with your feet. And if you're dexterous with them toes, you can yank that cartridge out with both tootsies thank you.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Guspaz »

No black-box reverse engineering result can ever be 100% accurate, because you can't test every possible combination of values in every possible state to ensure that you will get identical performance every time. An FPGA implementation can offer 100% accuracy if you've got detailed scans of the original chip and can reproduce the exact same logic that exists physically on the die on the gate-by-gate level. That information is not available for the SNES, so all you can get is something that uses different internal logic that behaves very similarly.

If it's done really well, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but it won't be exactly the same. This is not a problem: perfect is the enemy of good, and it is enough to be sufficiently accurate that there are no known differences in behaviour.
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Lawfer
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Lawfer »

If you want a cheap, easy and all-in-one system that would let you play SNES games with HDMI+1080p, this is definitly the way to go. Much easier to use than having to setup scalers and connecting cables to achieve upscaling from 240p to 1080p.

But if you have a CRT this is pretty worthless, just get a real SNES with a scart cable.
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Lawfer
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Lawfer »

Unreleased Super NES game to come packed with every Analogue Super Nt

Image

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/ ... -hardware/
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Fudoh »

Unreleased Super NES game to come PREINSTALLED with every Analogue Super Nt
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Wolf_ »

Fudoh wrote:Unreleased Super NES game to come PREINSTALLED with every Analogue Super Nt
Which, in case you didn't notice the caps, is super important because it confirms rom playback. I asked Kevtris and he said the game does not require a fx chip to run so no confirmation of super fx chip support yet but as we have rom support I imagine the odds are incredibly in favor of seeing at least some of them supported.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Guspaz »

It does not confirm ROM playback. The two games will likely be built into the firmware, and so it neither confirms jailbreak firmware nor loading ROMs from an SD card.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Wolf_ »

Guspaz wrote:It does not confirm ROM playback. The two games will likely be built into the firmware, and so it neither confirms jailbreak firmware nor loading ROMs from an SD card.
It does confirm rom playback because it IS a rom...
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Fudoh »

but of course it fuels expectations.....
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Wolf_ »

Fudoh wrote:but of course it fuels expectations.....
While it is "possible" Kevtris built in the ability to play roms for a single game the incredible likelihood would overwhelmingly be in favor of the fact that such a feature would be implemented for more than a single game. I mean the odds were already 99% in favor of a jailbreak considering the history of the company and the statements they put out about how they wanted buyers to be able to do whatever they want with the console but this tips the scales to 99.9% odds.

I just wish it required a fx chip to run so we would have some kind of confirmation on that.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Lawfer »

Fudoh wrote:Unreleased Super NES game to come PREINSTALLED with every Analogue Super Nt
Oh sorry, I just copied and pasted the title from the website who reported the news.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by ZellSF »

That's much more enticing than packing in Star Fox 2 if you ask me. Still not sold on this device though. It it could play NES and SNES roms I would be.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Lawfer »

ZellSF wrote:That's much more enticing than packing in Star Fox 2 if you ask me. Still not sold on this device though. It it could play NES and SNES roms I would be.
That would surely make this device very popular, hardware emulation that performs close to real hardware + out of the box support for modern displays with HDMI and 1080p upscaling + SNES Roms support. Really not many people have the financial means to get a SNES collection nowadays when you have to buy used SNES games for hundred if not a thousand buck each, this is why SD2SNES is popular.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by ZellSF »

I think saying SD2SNES is popular only because of that is very misleading. Convenience and game translations are huge factors too.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Lawfer »

ZellSF wrote:I think saying SD2SNES is popular only because of that is very misleading. Convenience and game translations are huge factors too.
As far as SNES is concerned, availability is scarce and prices are through the roof.

If it was just about "translations" anybody could pay a 100 or 200 bucks or more to get one of these Clocktower, Bahamut Lagoon, FF IV/V/VI, Dragon Quest IV/V/VI releases from TimeWalk Games, FishyFace Games, Rose Colored Gaming and so on.

Image

Problem is SNES is always more expensive than any other platforms, it won't be much of an issue for the people that have the financial means to collect for this platform and it is a great platform for collecting as there is many great releases for the SNES, but because of the entry price not everybody can spare that kind of money and to be able to play SNES games on dedicated hadware (rather than less-than-ideal software emulation on PC) that's where cheaper methods come in (SD2SNES, Potential Super Nt ROM Playback support etc).

If you watch this video review of the SD2SNES, the first thing that's mentioned is the price:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC3-fvisCOo

"but unfortunaly all the games cost a heck of a lot of money".
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by ZellSF »

Lawfer wrote:
ZellSF wrote:I think saying SD2SNES is popular only because of that is very misleading. Convenience and game translations are huge factors too.
As far as SNES is concerned, availability is scarce and prices are through the roof.

If it was just about "translations" anybody could pay a 100 or 200 bucks or more to get one of these Clocktower, Bahamut Lagoon, FF IV/V/VI, Dragon Quest IV/V/VI releases from TimeWalk Games, FishyFace Games, Rose Colored Gaming and so on.
Some people might not want to support pirates.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Lawfer »

ZellSF wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
ZellSF wrote:I think saying SD2SNES is popular only because of that is very misleading. Convenience and game translations are huge factors too.
As far as SNES is concerned, availability is scarce and prices are through the roof.

If it was just about "translations" anybody could pay a 100 or 200 bucks or more to get one of these Clocktower, Bahamut Lagoon, FF IV/V/VI, Dragon Quest IV/V/VI releases from TimeWalk Games, FishyFace Games, Rose Colored Gaming and so on.
Some people might not want to support pirates.
"Pirates" If they are pirates then Analogue are pirates too.

Furthermore, most of these releases are of higher quality than official releases and they go for alot of money on ebay.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by ZellSF »

Lawfer wrote:
ZellSF wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
As far as SNES is concerned, availability is scarce and prices are through the roof.

If it was just about "translations" anybody could pay a 100 or 200 bucks or more to get one of these Clocktower, Bahamut Lagoon, FF IV/V/VI, Dragon Quest IV/V/VI releases from TimeWalk Games, FishyFace Games, Rose Colored Gaming and so on.
Some people might not want to support pirates.
"Pirates" If they are pirates than Analogue are pirates too.
Analogue are not selling anything they don't have the rights to. But I'm pretty sure Nintendo gave no permission for Star Fox 2 to be reprinted as SNES cartridges.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Lawfer »

ZellSF wrote:Analogue are not selling anything they don't have the rights to. But I'm pretty sure Nintendo gave no permission for Star Fox 2 to be reprinted as SNES cartridges.
Well in that case neither are distribution of ROMs legitimate either, nor unofficial translations hacked into a ROM, nor using a ROM on emulators, we could stay all night arguing about the legitimacy of non-Nintendo hardware/software emulator and ROMs.

The original SNES Hardware/Software haven't been available for purchase for more than 20 years and as I explained you can only buy them on ebay second hand now for an extremely high price, making collecting for SNES an impossible task for most people. Moreso some of the most interesting SNES games have never been released outside Japan, as such a ROM needs to be hacked by *gasps* pirates and the unoffical translation needs to be inserted in it, so wether it is on unofficial cartridge or on an SD Card "piracy" is the only way to play in english all of the Japan-only releases and there are tons of them.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I'm kinda interested in this. The price is a bit high compared to the original, but you get what you pay for.

I don't understand why the emulation vs. FPGA debate persists; if this is just reimplementing (a good guess at) the original SNES logic, your input lag should be pretty similar to the original console.

Likewise comparing legal reverse-engineering to outright piracy is strange. The value of producing an unreleased SNES cartridge is there, but it's not legal. The Super Nt appears both legal and valuable to the community.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by lettuce »

So how long before there is a rom dump of the game on the internet....12 hours after release???
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by bigbadboaz »

Yes, that is the best thing about this :wink:
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