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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:17 am 



Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 196
Wolf_ wrote:

Who says it doesn't need to be there? If the console had the ability to instantly turn on I'm sure it would be a setting. Big deal if you turn it on once or twice per day and it takes an extra second. You have probably wasted more of your life complaining about it than you will ever lose waiting for it to turn on. And not caring about 1080p or hdmi makes you the incredible minority. Most snes are still going strong and if you just can't take that extra second of load time I strongly suggest you pick one of those up to save yourself from it.


I own 2 Super Famicom consoles and 1 Super Nt and am free to discuss and compare them, especially given the language used in the Super Nt advertising. The system uses an FPGA with flash memory. It's fully programmable. The boot time can be adjusted. Several patches have already been released to address other issues. It is work in progress software. There is nothing unreasonable about discussing and requesting features in a hardware forum about hardware. What's unreasonable is a person attacking an individual rather than an idea. What do you gain in this anyways? Does it make you feel better? I hate to break it to you but purchasing a Super Nt in the first place (or a BVM, or an OSSC) already puts me in a minority but it certainly doesn't invalidate my opinion, or facts.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:02 am 


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panzeroceania wrote:

FBX wrote:

I will say that the Super Nt obviously 'simulates' the audio hardware, but it also upsamples it to 48Khz. If you're a purist and want raw 32 Khz original hardware sound, you'd still want to get a mod board for an original SNES console. Aside from the purist point of view, the sound from the Super Nt at the very least sounds a lot better than analog output, so there's that advantage from the start.


What DAC do you use? I was under the impression that most if not all when fed something via SPDIF will upsample whatever you feed it to a common sample rate


The mod board doesn't use a DAC. It takes the raw digital data, and transmits it as-is. If I want to rip a soundtrack, I plug an optical cable into it and record it straight into my computer via a USB device. The sample rate of 32Khz is maintained, and the playback rate can be set to 32Khz as well to correct the speed (SNES consoles have random playback speeds). What's cool about this is changing the playback rate does NOT interpolate the original data. It merely sets the speed of the data playback without changing the sample rate.

I've mentioned before that the SNES's playback rate is often confused with sample rate, but the two parameters are quite different. One is the original 'quality' of the sound (sample rate), while the other is merely the tempo in which it is played (playback rate).
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:12 pm 


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FBX wrote:
The mod board doesn't use a DAC. It takes the raw digital data, and transmits it as-is. If I want to rip a soundtrack, I plug an optical cable into it and record it straight into my computer via a USB device. The sample rate of 32Khz is maintained, and the playback rate can be set to 32Khz as well to correct the speed (SNES consoles have random playback speeds). What's cool about this is changing the playback rate does NOT interpolate the original data. It merely sets the speed of the data playback without changing the sample rate.


FBX: What Toslink -> USB device are you using? I had one, but it routed things through windows audio and it would mess with the volume/sample rate/upres it to 48000k sometimes. I keep around an old mac pro JUST to be able to losslessly capture digital audio, and if there's a way I can pull that out of my capture chain for something more compact it would be very helpful to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:19 pm 



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Is there any word on enhancement chips being added to the jailbreak firmware?
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:31 pm 


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panzeroceania wrote:
Yeah it's super annoying, one of the biggest losses of current game consoles vs previous ones, and certainly a step away from perfect replication of an original SNES. Either you're exactly like an SNES , or you're not


What do you expect? You have to know what it is - it's an FPGA which needs some time to get configured when powering on.

If you want get rid of that configuration time you have to go one step further and use an ASIC; but then you cannot update HDL firmware anymore and you have to expect to pay a lot more.

Also, the SuperNt has some boot routines the SNES does not have due to its nature - loading your profile, doin' some hardware check ups. What you e.g. can disable is EDID (one of the checks before showing the first pixel at all) to boot a bit faster on the drawback that you can switch to resolutions your TV may not support.
The SNES does not need these check ups due to its nature. If something does not work, you see garbage or nothing on screen.

I my point of view, counting these points to decide, is it a replica of an SNES or not, is unfair. Sorry for that, but that's the way it is.

FBX wrote:
The sample rate of 32Khz is maintained, and the playback rate can be set to 32Khz as well to correct the speed (SNES consoles have random playback speeds). What's cool about this is changing the playback rate does NOT interpolate the original data. It merely sets the speed of the data playback without changing the sample rate.

What do you mean by changing playback rate? Equalizing / speeding up the playback rate or changing sampling rate from 32kHz to e.g. 48kHz? The later one needs at least one interpolation filter.
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Last edited by borti4938 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:31 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2010
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FBX wrote:

The mod board doesn't use a DAC. It takes the raw digital data, and transmits it as-is. If I want to rip a soundtrack, I plug an optical cable into it and record it straight into my computer via a USB device. I.


Sorry I should have been more specific. I know the mod doesn't have a DAC. I meant when you play your SNES regularly, not for capture but for regular play, what DAC do you plug your system into. An A/V Receiver or preamp? Your TV? A dedicated audio DAC? In addition I'm curious what audio card / audio integrated chip is in your PC

borti4938 wrote:

What do you expect? You have to know what it is - it's an FPGA which needs some time to get configured when powering on.

If you want get rid of that configuration time you have to go one step further and use an ASIC; but then you cannot update HDL firmware anymore and you have to expect to pay a lot more.


It doesn't require an ASIC. FPGA's can have internal configuration memory that is much faster to load from (often essentially instantaneous), but in many cases, it's OTP, so you lose the ability to upgrade it. You would need a programmer device though unless you can get a cheap clone or if a generic JTAG adapter can be made to work.

It's the difference between booting from that internal memory vs booting and loading from SD Card. An update would be a similar workflow to updating an NESRGB.


Last edited by panzeroceania on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:06 pm 


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panzeroceania wrote:
It doesn't require an ASIC. FPGA's can have internal configuration memory that is much faster to load from (often essentially instantaneous), but in many cases, it's OTP, so you lose the ability to upgrade it. You would need a programmer device though unless you can get a cheap clone or if a generic JTAG adapter can be made to work.

It's the difference between booting from that internal memory vs booting and loading from SD Card. An update would be a similar workflow to updating an NESRGB.


That would be ridiculous for most consumers. The NESRGB is a mod board that has to be soldered in, so JTAG is fine there, it's to be expected- this is a plug and play device and updating from SD card is absolutely necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:37 pm 



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I wouldn't expect that as the standard configuration, but a JTAG interface as an option would be appreciated for more advanced users. Configure it so you'd have to flash firmware from JTAG to disable SD initialization at boot. Everybody wins.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:50 pm 


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panzeroceania wrote:
I wouldn't expect that as the standard configuration, but a JTAG interface as an option would be appreciated for more advanced users. Configure it so you'd have to flash firmware from JTAG to disable SD initialization at boot. Everybody wins.


Okay, that's fair. I'm unsure if it's technically feasible though. Lots of headache on the firmware end to shave a second off the boot time (unless I'm misreading and it's significantly longer?).


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:26 pm 


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panzeroceania wrote:
It doesn't require an ASIC. FPGA's can have internal configuration memory that is much faster to load from (often essentially instantaneous), but in many cases, it's OTP, so you lose the ability to upgrade it. You would need a programmer device though unless you can get a cheap clone or if a generic JTAG adapter can be made to work.

It's the difference between booting from that internal memory vs booting and loading from SD Card. An update would be a similar workflow to updating an NESRGB.

Not sure if you got it right.
a) even with internal CFM you have configuration time and counts in in your comparison - the system does not work instantly.
b) the SuperNt was advertised to build with a Cyclone V - please name me one Cyclone V with internal CFM.
c) you can update internal CFM with an external micro controller as like as used in the SuperNt
d) the SuperNt does not boot from SD card!
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Last edited by borti4938 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:45 pm 



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Re a) Nothing is actually instant but it would be a great deal quicker. We're talking milliseconds vs. seconds.

Re b) it was also built without any external programing interface so there are multiple issues here with the Super Nt. Your suggestion that it would require an ASIC and it would be impossible on an FPGA however, is false. It's a design choice, not a technical limitation.

Re c) I'm not sure I understand your comment here. I agree that to update internal CFM you would need an external micro controller, which is what I said before, and you said now.

Re d) I'm aware the system itself doesn't boot from SD card but it does initialize the SD card to check settings, initializing an external media takes time. This is largely the issue we're discussing.

If I'm offending you I have no intention to do so. Not sure the need for exclamation, or bold fonts.

EDIT:

I think I understand what you're saying in point C. The USB power supply doubles as a micro controller interface eh? That's definitely a benefit. I was under the impression it was strictly power over USB. I assumed they had an interface inside the unit for initial loading in the factory. In this case there is hope for custom optimization yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:58 pm 



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hooked the superNT up to my Sony PVM-A250 OLED today. not a bad combo..
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:13 pm 



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creib wrote:
hooked the superNT up to my Sony PVM-A250 OLED today. not a bad combo..


Oh! I've seen a few older OLED PVMs on sale for affordable prices locally, how are they for gaming? I assume they're quite spectacular display devices and since there are no consumer OLED monitors they might offer something unique.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:06 pm 



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ASDR wrote:
creib wrote:
hooked the superNT up to my Sony PVM-A250 OLED today. not a bad combo..


Oh! I've seen a few older OLED PVMs on sale for affordable prices locally, how are they for gaming? I assume they're quite spectacular display devices and since there are no consumer OLED monitors they might offer something unique.


it is a fantastic display for anything you can throw at it. i had a pvm-2541 before this one (sonys 1st gen of broadcast oled) and it was also great


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:36 am 


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creib wrote:
it is a fantastic display for anything you can throw at it. i had a pvm-2541 before this one (sonys 1st gen of broadcast oled) and it was also great


What about the input lag though? Considering they're designed for professional use, I imagine input lag isn't on the list of priorities.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:48 am 


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Ashura wrote:
FBX wrote:
The mod board doesn't use a DAC. It takes the raw digital data, and transmits it as-is. If I want to rip a soundtrack, I plug an optical cable into it and record it straight into my computer via a USB device. The sample rate of 32Khz is maintained, and the playback rate can be set to 32Khz as well to correct the speed (SNES consoles have random playback speeds). What's cool about this is changing the playback rate does NOT interpolate the original data. It merely sets the speed of the data playback without changing the sample rate.


FBX: What Toslink -> USB device are you using? I had one, but it routed things through windows audio and it would mess with the volume/sample rate/upres it to 48000k sometimes. I keep around an old mac pro JUST to be able to losslessly capture digital audio, and if there's a way I can pull that out of my capture chain for something more compact it would be very helpful to me.


I use this:

https://www.amazon.com/VAlinks-External-Surround-Recording-Compatible/dp/B013256ODG

Then I use a program called Goldwave (much prefer it over Audacity for simple editing). When I make the rip, Goldwave will default the playback speed to whatever Windows sound is set to (either 44.1 or 48Khz). Keep in mind this is the playback speed not the sample rate. If you try playing the ripped track, it will sound really sped up, so what you do is change the playback rate to 32Khz, and presto! You've got a perfect digital recording of the raw SNES digital output at the proper playback rate. As I mentioned before, this does NOT mess with the original data by doing any sort of interpolation. It merely sets the flag for playback speed.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:21 am 


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@FBX: Thank you for the info.

@panzeroceania:
The SuperNt works with a Cyclone V FPGA and a PIC32MX microcontroller. Also the SD card is not used for storing any configuration; the SD card is not used at all just for updating the firmware.
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Last edited by borti4938 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:21 am 



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FBX wrote:


What do you use for general playback when you're not ripping music?

borti4938 wrote:
@panzeroceania:
Thank you for confirming that you don't know, what you are talking about. FYI: The SuperNt works with a Cyclone V FPGA and a PIC32MX microcontroller. Also the SD card is not used for storing any configuration; the SD card is not used at all just for updating the firmware.


you're proposing that the SD Card slot is not initialized by the system at boot? If not at that point, then when exactly.

I'm aware of the Cyclone V FPGA, it's already been previously discussed. And we wouldn't have Turrican without a form of internal storage. this is not news to me. Stating facts that have been previously discussed doesn't invalidate my concerns or arguments .

I'm still not sure why you're using such aggressive language.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:43 am 


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panzeroceania wrote:
FBX wrote:


What do you use for general playback when you're not ripping music?



My Sony STR-DH520. It's an old cheap model, but works perfectly fine with the raw SNES audio output, and sounds awesome in my bedroom. I have a 55 inch display on the wall at the foot of my bed, and the 5.1 channel surround is set up with the rear channels behind the head of my bed. So when I watch movies or play games casually, I just chill on my bed.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:49 am 



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Very nice set-up, from the description it seems like it would sound great.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:49 am 


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What kind of experiences are people having with the SD2SNES and the SuperNT?
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:55 am 



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orange808 wrote:
What kind of experiences are people having with the SD2SNES and the SuperNT?

In my case I have some problems to power on the SuperNT if the SD2SNES is inserted into the cartridge slot.

For example:
* Power on with SD2SNES inserted: SD2SNES does not power on (LEDs are off), SuperNT shows a black screen (or may boot but SD2SNES does not run)
* Power SuperNT on with no cartridge, then insert SD2SNES after boot: SD2SNES is powered on OK, can be started from SuperNT menu, but sometimes this causes a SuperNT restart

I'm using the latest SD2SNES version. I've read more cases like this in the Atariage forums.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:18 am 


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panzeroceania wrote:
you're proposing that the SD Card slot is not initialized by the system at boot? If not at that point, then when exactly.

A Sd slot has a SD detection pin. You can check with a single instruction if the SD card has to be initialised or not. I would wonder if that is not used.


panzeroceania wrote:
I'm aware of the Cyclone V FPGA, it's already been previously discussed.

You were asking, where the microcontroller comes from and edited to the uUSB port where a micro controller can be attached. I said to you that there is a uC on the SuperNt beside of the FPGA:
borti4938 wrote:
a Cyclone V FPGA and a PIC32MX microcontroller.



panzeroceania wrote:
And we wouldn't have Turrican without a form of internal storage. this is not news to me. Stating facts that have been previously discussed doesn't invalidate my concerns or arguments .

Still you were talking about internal CFM of an FPGA and wasn't able to name a single Cyclone V with internal CFM.
I never said that there is no storage somewhere on the SuperNt mainboard.


panzeroceania wrote:
I'm still not sure why you're using such aggressive language.

Was not my aim. I'll review my posts and will edit them where misinterpretation may occur. I'm sorry for that if it sounds so.

My only concern about your point is that you count in a configuration time of a system when comparing them to original hardware which does not need initial configuration before it starts working. (At least it sounds so to me...)
In the following you gave some points which makes me wonder if you understand what the SuperNt is and can effort.

That's nothing against what annoys you (booting time), even if I can hardly understand this. But this is your point in the booting time ;)
I don't want to defend the SuperNt. To be honest, I'm still disappointed. I just wait for the next firmware update; and if region checking with $213F reads is not exploit then I'll probably sell it.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:57 am 


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orange808 wrote:
What kind of experiences are people having with the SD2SNES and the SuperNT?


Mine has worked pretty much flawlessly. It's a revision F that I installed Borti's sound amp board on. The only minor issue that comes up is if cart audio is enabled and I hold the reset button to get back to the SD2SNES menu, there's a loud buzzing sound that comes through the audio. Other than that, it has worked perfectly.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:41 pm 


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FBX wrote:
I use this:

https://www.amazon.com/VAlinks-External-Surround-Recording-Compatible/dp/B013256ODG

Then I use a program called Goldwave (much prefer it over Audacity for simple editing). When I make the rip, Goldwave will default the playback speed to whatever Windows sound is set to (either 44.1 or 48Khz). Keep in mind this is the playback speed not the sample rate. If you try playing the ripped track, it will sound really sped up, so what you do is change the playback rate to 32Khz, and presto! You've got a perfect digital recording of the raw SNES digital output at the proper playback rate. As I mentioned before, this does NOT mess with the original data by doing any sort of interpolation. It merely sets the flag for playback speed.


Interesting! Just to be clear; when you capture from TOSLink through this box, it doesn't allow you to futz with the audio volume, right? If it does, Windows Audio is processing it somehow. It should, ideally, lock the audio slider on capturing from this source since digital audio is a set volume. The sound card in the MacPro does this, but the other box I got didn't. This is actually very useful for preserving laserdisc digital audio, which is why I'm curious.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:29 pm 



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panzeroceania wrote:

I'm still not sure why you're using such aggressive language.


Have you checked the tone of your own posts though?

Not even sure why're getting into it with @borti4938 - if anyone knows what they're talking about, it's him.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:09 pm 


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Ashura wrote:

Interesting! Just to be clear; when you capture from TOSLink through this box, it doesn't allow you to futz with the audio volume, right? If it does, Windows Audio is processing it somehow. It should, ideally, lock the audio slider on capturing from this source since digital audio is a set volume. The sound card in the MacPro does this, but the other box I got didn't. This is actually very useful for preserving laserdisc digital audio, which is why I'm curious.


Audio level is locked. The device does nothing to mess with it. In fact, I was able to use this audio level information to compare levels between games. For example: The music in "Super Aleste" is some of the lowest volume level music on the SNES (probably because they made the sound effects and explosions much louder), while "Super Turrican" has the loudest music. Chris Huelsbeck literally used the entire sound envelope for the soundtrack in Super Turrican.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:29 am 



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Anyone with the Jailbreak installed on this and a copy of Biometal that can confirm playing off cart there's a really off music playback issue? Like the instruments are missing or very wrong when playing off SD, wanted to see if someone had a cart who can confirm (Jailbreak or not, honestly) but either way I'll be trying it myself with a cart later on.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:49 am 


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FBX wrote:
BrianC wrote:
Also, if you plan use MSU-1 games on SD2SNES, make sure the external audio option is on. I'm guessing it's also needed for SGB?


Yep. Although if you don't plan on using external sources like MSU1 or SGB all that often, I recommend keeping cart audio turned off until you need it on.


Also, it's best to keep the external audio turned off (or turn it off) if you plan to play the US/EU Space Invaders on SGB in SNES mode. This is an especially good thing to remember if you play it from a GB Everdrive (though I have the actual cart too).

I noticed a new update came out. Rendering Ranger R2/Targa works now.

orange808 wrote:
What kind of experiences are people having with the SD2SNES and the SuperNT?


It has been working fine for me and boots up right away when I lowered the booting time to zero and set the Super NT to go straight to cartridge. Rendering Ranger booted up fine when I tested it with the SD2SNES on the latest firmware.


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 Post subject: Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:14 am 


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Is there already progress/news on the RGB output?
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