RGB inputs on CRTs in Japan?

[schadenfreude]

I'm heading to Japan in November for a multi-months journey, and I'm wondering what kind of RGB inputs on CRTs I will encounter while I am there. I was planning on buying a Euro SCART to JP21 adapter before leaving, but I have heard that JP21 RGB inputs aren't very common on consumer CRTs in Japan, which surprised me. I did some Google image searching and found sets with D-terminal (I know it's component, but I have a transcoder) and VGA inputs. So what can I expect to find?

[juji82]

Expect really few sets with a scart connector input.

[ApolloBoy]

Expect really few sets with a scart connector input.

Although it's not actually SCART, it's JP21. Same connector but the pinout is totally different.

[juji82]

That's what I wrote, with SCART connector, not talking about wirings

[SamIAm]

I live in Japan and have been buying Japanese CRTs for years. The 21-pin input was never a common thing, and AFAIK was extinct by the mid-90s or so. You'll primarily see them on two types of equipment, both manufactured primarily in the late 80s:

- PC monitors, most of which weren't built with any normal TV reception equipment and which tend to be on the small side. People are more proactive about trashing these, so they're quite uncommon.

- Sony ProFeel TVs, which appear like repackaged PVMs with consumer-oriented additions. These are actually more sought after in Japan than most broadcast monitors. 21, 25, 27, 32 and even 34 inch tubes were available. They stopped manufacturing the 4:3 versions in 1992 and the 16:9 versions in 1994, IIRC. Their rarity is exacerbated by the fact that Sony eventually issued a statement saying that component breakdown (capacitors?) made these a potential fire-hazard and asked people to stop using them.

There do exist on other TVs with the input, but they tend to be dinosaurs, like this mother that the guy bought in 1984.

Sony CRTs from about 1999 onward often have an input called AV Multi that works as an RGB input. It's literally the same connector as the Playstation's AV out port. Indeed, the only official cable ever released for it was for the PS2, and it has the same male head on both ends. These days, many people make and sell RGB21-to-AV Multi cables on Yahoo Auctions and other places. If you're looking for CRTs in the wild, you are far more likely to run into one of these. Even the very last Sony CRTs from 2006 or so had this input.

Bear in mind, chain-store used-shops like Book Off don't even carry CRTs anymore, and mom-and-pop places are reluctant to take them. I was in America a few months ago, and the availability of CRTs on craigslist in my hometown of 100,000 utterly dwarfed availability in the Japanese city of 1.5 million where I live now.

If component video is acceptable, you stand a much better chance of finding something in short order for gaming. If you're only here for a limited time, that's what I'd shoot for.

Hope this helps!

[SuperDeadite]

Yeah, AV-Multi TVs are highly recommended for console use.
If you are going for arcade pcb usage though they have a lot of compatibility issues.

Most old Japanese PC monitors take RGB, but they are typically no bigger then 15".
If you are got money to burn, you can still get brand new arcade monitors mounted in
wood boxes for safe home use. I have one, was a lot of money, but I couldn't be more happy.

[FinalBaton]

always thought that Av-multi connector on jap TVs was really cool for PS2 use, since it accepts both RGB and YPbPr
(not that it's really useful for gaming, I just find it intersting. It did allow you to play back DVDs as well as gaming in RGB back then, if your PS2 was your only DVD player. Which was the case for many people in the few early years of the PS2 release.)

[MKL]

Sony CRTs from about 1999 onward often have an input called AV Multi that works as an RGB input. It's literally the same connector as the Playstation's AV out port.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n227530851

[schadenfreude]

If component video is acceptable, you stand a much better chance of finding something in short order for gaming. If you're only here for a limited time, that's what I'd shoot for.

Hope this helps!

Yes, it helps a lot! Thank you for your very informative post. And I will take a Shinybow RGB-YPbPr transcoder with me, so component is no problem, as long as it's on a standard-definition television with no extra video processing (like what EDTVs do).

Yeah, AV-Multi TVs are highly recommended for console use.
If you are going for arcade pcb usage though they have a lot of compatibility issues.

Can you elaborate on this? I might pick up some PCBs, but I will have a GroovyMAME setup, whose output is similar to the PCB itself.

If you are got money to burn, you can still get brand new arcade monitors mounted in
wood boxes for safe home use. I have one, was a lot of money, but I couldn't be more happy.

Only if I knew I could re-sell it before leaving or have someone hang onto it for me until I return again.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n227530851

Nice, I see the AV Multi and the D-Terminals in the back. Do component inputs on Japanese TVs always use D-Terminal sockets instead of phono jacks? Speaking of phono jacks, man are they corroded on the back of that TV.

[schadenfreude]

On a semi-related note: How do you folks living in Japan deal with the inevitable visits from the NHK Gestapo?

[HiroWorship]

On a semi-related note: How do you folks living in Japan deal with the inevitable visits from the NHK Gestapo?

Well, legally if you own a TV you're required to sign the contract and pay the licensing fee; I suppose if you only plan to have a CRT and no "modern" TV you might be able to politely argue that, since tuners in any CRT aren't able to receive broadcast signals at this point, you should be exempt.

Depending on your living situation and how long you will be here it's possible you won't encounter them at all, although they have stepped up collection efforts in recent years.

Other than that, SamIAm's assessment is right on the money.
Any Sony with AV-Multi in = excellent RGB out of the box, any other manufacturer = about the same situation as the US (component input only on later models).
Component inputs are almost exclusively D-Terminal for consumer CRTs so you will need to get a converter cable if you want to use a source with phono plugs.

If you are going to be in the greater Tokyo area and willing to pick it up I would be happy to donate a Sony 25" Trinitron (2005 manufacture date) with RGB/Component (AV-Multi/D-Terminal) input to get you started. Calibrated with good geometry.
Can probably work out cabling too so you can hit the ground running.
Just PM me.

[SamIAm]

I'm sure we all want to be good citizens. Here is some information about NHK that you might find interesting.

- They have to make you sign a contract before they can start taking fees. Although you are legally "required" to make a contract with them if you own a TV that can receive NHK, there are no legal repercussions for refusing to sign. If the NHK rep says that you have to, you can flat out say that you absolutely will not and invite him to do his worst. He will have nothing.

- For him and all NHK-related people, it is highly recommended not to let them through your door. They'll try to get a foot in, too, so watch out.

- If you've signed a contract but want to stop paying, the worst (and basically only) thing that can happen is that NHK will sue you for the back-payments. Based on the number of non-payers nationwide and the number of suits launched per year, your chances of being sued as a non-payer are about one in four thousand. This is higher in Tokyo and lower everywhere else, especially the boonies.

- If you do get sued, you don't have to go to court. Just pay up, and they'll withdraw. You better capitulate, though, because NHK always wins these lawsuits.

- The lawsuits are civil suits and not criminal, so even if you fight them, nobody goes to jail or gets in big trouble. Some people have lost the civil suit, then gone on not to pay what the court told them to, and NHK has not followed up.

- They can only get you for a maximum of five years worth of missing back payments. That's something like 80,000 yen. Your chances of being sued before you accumulate this much are practically nothing.

- If you've signed a contract and stop paying, the guy who comes knocking at your door for collections does not work for NHK. He works for a third party debt-collection type of company. Ignore him, and he'll go away.

[SuperDeadite]

Nobody pays for NHK. My wife has left the country once in her entire life,
and when NHK rings she just says something like "it's too late and the kids are sleeping."
And then we never open the door. lol.

[schadenfreude]

If you are going to be in the greater Tokyo area and willing to pick it up I would be happy to donate a Sony 25" Trinitron (2005 manufacture date) with RGB/Component (AV-Multi/D-Terminal) input to get you started. Calibrated with good geometry.
Can probably work out cabling too so you can hit the ground running.
Just PM me.

I will be. You are a saint! I will contact you in early November then. I'm not sure how I'll get it back home (what's it weigh? I hope no more than about 70lbs [PVM weight that I'm accustomed to]), but I have willed myself through crazier endeavors.

[bobrocks95]

If you are going to be in the greater Tokyo area and willing to pick it up I would be happy to donate a Sony 25" Trinitron (2005 manufacture date) with RGB/Component (AV-Multi/D-Terminal) input to get you started. Calibrated with good geometry.
Can probably work out cabling too so you can hit the ground running.
Just PM me.

I will be. You are a saint! I will contact you in early November then. I'm not sure how I'll get it back home (what's it weigh? I hope no more than about 70lbs [PVM weight that I'm accustomed to]), but I have willed myself through crazier endeavors.

A quick look shows some 24" consumer sets sitting around 80lbs. Not sure if Japan has different laws regarding the screen size thing though- as in, 24" Trinitrons really have a 26" tube or something like that. Maybe in Japan when they say 25" it's really 23" visible? Or it's really 27" with 25" visible and you're going to have a bit of back pain to look forward to lol.

[NJRoadfan]

National (Panasonic) made them too. The JP-21 port makes a cameo appearance in this sales promo. https://youtu.be/tx7zqAb3lJ0?t=8m15s

[SamIAm]

National (Panasonic) made them too. The JP-21 port makes a cameo appearance in this sales promo. https://youtu.be/tx7zqAb3lJ0?t=8m15s

Cool!

The value of the yen was in major flux in 1985, but that's roughly $2500 for that 24 inch tube. I think the Sony ProFeel sets were in the $2000-$3000 range as well, with the biggest ones being more like $4000. Meanwhile, it looks like typical 25" consumer TVs were in the $500-$600 range.

Just another reason why it's not common to run into these.

[schadenfreude]

A quick look shows some 24" consumer sets sitting around 80lbs. Not sure if Japan has different laws regarding the screen size thing though- as in, 24" Trinitrons really have a 26" tube or something like that. Maybe in Japan when they say 25" it's really 23" visible? Or it's really 27" with 25" visible and you're going to have a bit of back pain to look forward to lol.

Before I posted that, I googled "Sony 25" Trinitron", and one of the first results I found was the manual for the Sony KV-25X5A, which is an old European model with a mass of 33.2 kg (73.04 lbs). Wikipedia shows some 24" models with component weighing from 72.3 lbs to 81.57 lbs.

Ah, here I found the manual for the Japanese model KV-25DS65. It says the TV has a mass of 36.7 kg (80.74 lbs), with a screen having a diagonal length of 59.7 cm (~23.5 in). I guess in Japan they do the same screen vs. viewable area distinction too? I'll expect something closer to 80 lbs then and will motivate myself before taking it by chanting, "Being the wise and courageous knight that you are, you feel strongth welling in your body".

[MKL]

European and Japanese models KV-25 are the same size as US models KV-24. They all have tubes with a 60cm viewable diagonal. Previously Sony used 59cm tubes in European and Japanese KV-25 models that would have ben marketed as KV-23 in the US but were never released over there.

[mvsfan]

in The U.S. Our donate to keep public tv going system sure sounds much better than the shakedown regimes a lot of countrys have. that shit is ridiculous. Own a tv, Pay for shit you never watch?

ridiculous.

[Xer Xian]

Looks like the NHK has got nothing on Italy's national TV station RAI - they struggled with payments enforcement as well, so starting from last year a law was passed to effectively conflate TV licence fees with the energy bill.

Nowadays it's not uncommon to hear of families having incurred double taxation - but it's all good, mamma RAI's programs are so, so great they're worth any amount really.

[HiroWorship]

I will be. You are a saint! I will contact you in early November then. I'm not sure how I'll get it back home (what's it weigh? I hope no more than about 70lbs [PVM weight that I'm accustomed to]), but I have willed myself through crazier endeavors.

schadenfreude, sorry for the late reply (I was traveling and missed the update on this thread) - yes, please do contact me in November and we will get you set up.

The weight on the Trinitron is 36.5 kgs according to the manual, so that's 80 lbs.
That being said a friend and I moved it before so shouldn't be too difficult to get it out to the street and in to a taxi with 2 people.
Last time I gave a friend a monitor we put it in the trunk of a taxi which worked fine - you just might need someone on the other end who can help you out.

Anyway, let me know and we'll figure out the details!

[Lawfer]

In Japan you can get RGB through two way:

1. JP21



2. AV-Multi Port (exclusive to Sony CRTs)



Well actually there are other ways, like VGA, BNC, 8P Digital RGB, 9P RGB, 15P RGB, DIN and a few others, but these aren't standard for CRT TVs.

[the androgyne]

Sorry for the bump but wanted to share some recent acquisitions on this topic.

First i found a guy selling a KV21DA55 CRT for just 300y. No remote (no need for one), and a missing button on the front (of no consequence) ... one hell of a good deal! It did cost me 2500y to get it shipped, but it was worth it though... this thing has 3 S-Video, 2 D-Terminal (only D1/480i, but i'll live) and a glorious AV Multi socket!


Gamecube Soul Calibur 2 through D-Terminal.
Don't mind the composite cables in this shot, my Dreamcast is low priority for a bit longer

First thing i tracked down was the VMC-AVM250, double ended AV Multi cable:



Perfect for PS1/2! This was only 1700y. This cable isn't easy to come by, i was very lucky to find it soon after i got the TV.
This page i found with a list of TV models that had the port may be of use to someone: http://www4.plala.or.jp/soundcity/net/s ... avm250.htm

Once i realised the greatness of that port, I went looking for solutions for my Saturn and Super Famicom. Both are normally plugged in via RGB21 to Framemeister. I found that a few people had made adapters over the years, but they were pretty sparse nowadays and kinda pricy so i forgot about it... until a link popped up in my Twitter feed recently. Some company started selling them again. http://kvclab.com/shopdetail/000000000633/ for those interested, although you may have difficulty buying or getting them out of Japan.

But, this isn't the cable I bought. Their listing had me a little nervous. A lot of the cables i'd seen which were made by people on Yahoo and Mercari etc talk about specific efforts to reduce noise and such, this one says made in China and not guaranteed on all devices... It'd probably be fine, but since all my previous cables came from individuals making their own, I had another look at those, and someone was offloading one for the same price of 2200y. And here it is!



Obviously it's made from an original Sony cable, which the other one wouldn't be I think. There's no issues to speak of so i lucked out again!
All my RGB capable consoles are now fully geared up for the CRT, they look fantastic and i'm only out of pocket about 7000y!