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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:35 pm 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
fernan1234 wrote:
Sad that this still doesn't look like it will be the perfect and complete replacement for an optical drive (personally, I could care less about digital output, analog can look "perfect" enough with the right setup).

For now, looks like if I want loading games from SD card, fast loading times, and 98% compatibility, I'd be better off using wiimadnafen on a Wii with RGB (hell, if you really want digital now you can get a WiiDual kit, this + OSSC is still cheaper). Or, until the right ODE is developed, I'll keep playing on CDs and enjoying the sweet mechanical sounds of the CD-RomRom's shitty laser assembly, trying not to breath near the console to prevent the redbook audio stream from getting cut.

*shudder*
Last time I had mine loading discs it worked for about 4 days of use and died again.

Luckily, it seems to be improving. I don’t know if compatibility is on the same level as SSDSys3 or not but I know it has problems with some of the same games for the same reasons (loads too fast). Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective is one example.

Looks like Mednafen has similar issues affecting audio sync in some games, so maybe it’s already close to 98%:
https://twitter.com/shadoff_d/status/10 ... 53792?s=21
Their compatibility percentages on the UperGrafx website are horribly outdated.

Wolf_ wrote:
CZroe wrote:
Hi guys I'm replying to an argument from months ago!

God damn thread necromancers.
Image

LOL!

Yeah, because we should totally just ignore it for the sake of anyone actually interested! ;)

But seriously:
I’m obviously interested in it myself and it doesn’t seem that anyone has given UGX-02 a proper shake for a Western impression. Definitely hasn’t got the MLiG treatment yet. Many people who might be interested land here or on the GameTechUS video with the unfinished UGX-01 instead and lose all interest. They should see what has changed before dismissing it.

Ray of hope:
David Shadoff, a prolific ROM hacker/translator got one recently and it looks like he’s been helping the creators on Twitter (luckily, he knows Japanese ;)). I see where he’s been testing various games and helping them get correct seek times for the ones that break or glitch from loading too fast (this is an issue for SSDSys3 as well). He doesn’t seem to be the “big public review/video” type though.

I did bring some info about newer functionality that hadn’t been discussed when I bumped this. Would you have preferred a new thread? I assumed it’s better to correct misinformation at the source, since others will come across it same as I did. An awful lot of people here seemed to think the digital output was just a scaler, so perhaps this thread would have been more active with that correction alone. SSDSys3 certainly has more on-going attention despite a botched launch, inferior AV quality, and hardware issues that Terra Onion acknowledges and explicitly says they will not address. In comparison, I think UGX-02 definitely deserves another look so I bumped this thread with my best effort to contribute.

I have privately reached out to some people here to ask for more info but I should at least share what I already have (and clarify a few things).


Last edited by CZroe on Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:45 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 694
If there's been new developments on this unit then it's absolutely a good thing to bump this topic. I do want to keep an eye on this project, and will keep my fingers crossed, among many, hoping that eventually a stand-alone ODE without the upscaler is released.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:54 am 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 351
CZroe wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
CZroe wrote:
Hi guys I'm replying to an argument from months ago!

God damn thread necromancers.
Image

LOL! I'm a raisin ur ded... threads
Image


Some things man was never meant to tamper with! Have some respect for the dead.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:44 am 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
fernan1234 wrote:
If there's been new developments on this unit then it's absolutely a good thing to bump this topic. I do want to keep an eye on this project, and will keep my fingers crossed, among many, hoping that eventually a stand-alone ODE without the upscaler is released.

Then what you really want is a Super SD System 3, right? ;)

Yeah, I get it: It’s expensive too. That’s because there is no scaler component to eliminate and reduce costs significantly. They both use an FPGA to replicate HuCards and optical drives. One takes it a step further to replicate the VDC (graphics chip) for digital video but it’s still all done in a single FPGA. The other components (DVI connector, RAM modules, SD card slots, etc) add up to a negligible difference. I have no doubt that it’s possible to make an ODE for a third of the cost but the market may be too niche to support that price point, especially with multiple competitors already. :(
Wolf_ wrote:
CZroe wrote:
Hi guys I'm setting the record straight and bringing up significant new developments!

Definitely don’t want this thread resurrected with my embarrassing posts.

;)
Wolf_ wrote:
CZroe wrote:
This is about something bigger than you.

Have some pity and let me bury my shame!

FTFY


Last edited by CZroe on Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:54 am 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 351
CZroe wrote:
This is about something bigger than you.


Arguments from months ago are not "bigger than" anything. They are done and over with. All this is you being so bored and having so much free time you decided to take up the ancient and forbidden art of necromancy. I have better things to do with my time than have the same argument twice. I just thought I would provide some you with the information that necroposting is frowned on because it is a waste of time. Evidently you refuse to accept that truth so I am done with you. I will not be responding to anything else you have to say so I hope you are able to learn your lesson with this message. If not feel free to remain forever broken I don't care either way.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:16 am 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
Wolf_ wrote:
CZroe wrote:
This is about something bigger than you.


Arguments from months ago are not "bigger than" anything. They are done and over with. All this is you being so bored and having so much free time you decided to take up the ancient and forbidden art of necromancy. I have better things to do with my time than have the same argument twice. I just thought I would provide some you with the information that necroposting is frowned on because it is a waste of time. Evidently you refuse to accept that truth so I am done with you. I will not be responding to anything else you have to say so I hope you are able to learn your lesson with this message. If not feel free to remain forever broken I don't care either way.

LOL! More thread-crapping.

I tried to be nice. You ruined the thread last year. When someone tries to have a productive conversation here again you are intent on ruining it... again.

You know what else is “frowned upon?” Morons who make another useless thread when a thread for that topic already exists... or maybe that should extend those who object to making an on-topic post where it is most relevant. Hmm.

Seriously, dude. Do you even realize how embarrassingly wrong you were (then and now)? Did you see how I carefully worded my responses to avoid being this blunt with you? I’m not antagonizing you but it sounds like you really want to make a fool of yourself.

Again, you correct misunderstandings at the source and you also continue discussions where they exist. Common sense. This thread was inarguably started by RGBSource for that purpose. You can’t hide behind this ridiculous anti-necro sentiment that you can’t even justify. You don’t speak for the rest of the forum. This is a technical forum where having the right information for the record and where it belongs matters a lot more than how old a thread is. Leave that nonsense for all the kiddie forums where people aren’t serious about this kind of stuff.

My brother recently had all of his UltraHDMI group buy threads combined for this same reason. I don’t see you over there screaming at the round 5 participants for bumping the old GB thread. Something tells me you didn’t want to see this one bumped. Maybe I hit the nail on the head.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:42 am 


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No matter the forum, I always welcome thread bumps when there's relevant new information or corrections to old misinformation.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:15 pm 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
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I'm also interested in hearing first hand accounts of the device. If it weren't quite so expensive, I might stomach an impulse purchase. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:10 pm 


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So, I've somehow become the waifu of the creator of the UperGrafx. If anyone has any questions/comments/complaints regarding the latest model, just let me know and I'll tell him.

In addition to the games listed on the website, there are also currently 25 CD games known to have issues (thanks to David Shadoff for his help on this). As mentioned earlier in the thread, most of those issues are due to the games being designed with the original CD drive's slow read speed in mind.

I also played some games with it hooked up to a 1080p TV, and they all looked/ran pretty good to me.
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Last edited by Cuilan on Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:28 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1567
Unseen wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Only slightly less insanely overpriced, and still uses the silly vertical orientation.

Makes life easier for the designer though - with a vertical PCB you just need a horizontal header of sufficient length which can be pieced together from smaller ones if necessary. An angled 3-row 2.54mm connector is probably much harder to come by.

I agree about the price though and personally I'd rather see an internal version that I could fit into my existing PCE Duo =)

I don't find the vertical orientation silly at all; frankly, I'd prefer that to the super-deep layout of the Dreamcast with a Toro box. I have a three-layer glass TV stand that I'm using off to the side for my consoles and equipment, with the Dreamcast on the middle shelf, pulled as far forward as it can be, and the Toro is dangling half-off the rear edge of the shelf.

As for being easier on the designer, the connector could be mounted on a smaller daughterboard, anchored to the case with screws, and connected to the mainboard with a flex or ribbon cable. Same goes for any outputs. Yeah, it'd be more expensive in parts and assembly, but you could get a much more compact design by allowing your I/O to be relocated.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:02 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Cuilan wrote:
So, I've somehow become the waifu of the creator of the UperGrafx. If anyone has any questions/comments/complaints regarding the latest model, just let me know and I'll tell him.

In addition to the games listed on the website, there are also currently 25 CD games known to have issues (thanks to David Shadoff for his help on this). As mentioned earlier in the thread, most of those issues are due to the games being designed with the original CD drive's slow read speed in mind.

I also played some games with it hooked up to a 1080p TV, and they all looked/ran pretty good to me.


Is he aware of the very high demand for a model that only works as an ODE (with video output handled by the console) without any upscaling for analog monitor users? I'm guessing it would still need to have analog audio output only for the CD audio. Are there any plans to offer such a model?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:52 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Is he aware of the very high demand for a model that only works as an ODE (with video output handled by the console) without any upscaling for analog monitor users? I'm guessing it would still need to have analog audio output only for the CD audio. Are there any plans to offer such a model?


I spoke to him about this, and he currently doesn't have the motivation to make something like that. He'd only consider it if he had at least one person to sponsor the development. The end product would be cheaper, but the initial time and money needed to create it would be too high for him to want to handle alone.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:41 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 694
That makes sense. Maybe Patreon is a possible route to consider? Kinda like how Prof Abrasive is doing for his Satiator (Saturn ODE).


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:54 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
That makes sense. Maybe Patreon is a possible route to consider? Kinda like how Prof Abrasive is doing for his Satiator (Saturn ODE).


Unfortunately, he seems rather cynical with regards to crowdfunding. I don't think it's gonna happen, at least not with his direct involvement.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 7:55 pm 


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I saw some people posting some UGX-02 related questions/comments in the SSDS3 thread, and so as to not fill that thread with off-topic posts, I'm going to replay here instead.

FBX wrote:
Bob tried talking to the guy that made it in the hopes he would support more modern and common image formats, as well as fix some of the issues, but he said the guy was stubborn and refused to change it.


It's not about him being stubborn. Adding support for other formats would require a lot of extra work, and not only to implement them, but also to debug any problems that would pop up. Because of that, he currently has no interest in adding any others, though he might do so in the future.

CZroe wrote:
I guess I understand why the creator doesn't want to accommodate downloads vs. backups in Japan's current climate. Some guy even got arrested for hacking SFC Mini (SNES Classic Edition) for his coworkers. Understanding doesn't make it suck less. :( I doubt the creator is going to be able to work on it much since he's in San Diego for the next 6 months (learning English at SDSU). Probably didn't bring his lab. ;)


The legality of it is part of the reason why, but the other part is that the UGX-02 is designed primarily for the the Japanese market, where actual PCE software is fairly quick and easy to obtain.

He's currently taking a month-long break from his English classes to work on the UGX-02 again, and he's managed to get most of his testing equipment back up and running.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 9:24 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Always nice to hear about continued work on one of these devices. My only strong wish for the UGX-02 is the original unprocessed, unscaled, non-stretched 15kHz video output. Doing it through the HDMI output is fine, so no need for new hardware on it. I bet it can already be done easily, and that the dev hasn't implemented it because the signal wouldn't be compatible with modern displays anyway. But this would actually provide a solution for analogue users, who would simply need to use an HDMI to VGA converter (which can extract the audio too, or digital audio can be extracted via an HDMI switch) and a sync combiner like an Extron RGB interface. I would totally buy one if it had this one feature.

Additional features like easier CD image loading would be the icing on the cake, and would render the SSDS3 100% obsolete.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:31 am 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 464
Cuilan wrote:
I saw some people posting some UGX-02 related questions/comments in the SSDS3 thread, and so as to not fill that thread with off-topic posts, I'm going to replay here instead.

FBX wrote:
Bob tried talking to the guy that made it in the hopes he would support more modern and common image formats, as well as fix some of the issues, but he said the guy was stubborn and refused to change it.


It's not about him being stubborn. Adding support for other formats would require a lot of extra work, and not only to implement them, but also to debug any problems that would pop up. Because of that, he currently has no interest in adding any others, though he might do so in the future

Not true. All he'd have to do it change his code to not require a reference to CDM in the PCE CD files and he'd open up a LOT more compatibility. Sorry, I probably sound like I'm going after the guy, but I'm just being honest.

fernan1234 wrote:
My only strong wish for the UGX-02 is the original unprocessed, unscaled, non-stretched 15kHz video output. Doing it through the HDMI output is fine, so no need for new hardware on it.

You know, that might be the best bet for RGB output on all jailbar-ridden PCE consoles: Output digital 240p and use adapters to go from digital to analog. Still, adding analog video output would be nice - ESPECIALLY for people who want dual outputs.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:45 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Always nice to hear about continued work on one of these devices. My only strong wish for the UGX-02 is the original unprocessed, unscaled, non-stretched 15kHz video output. Doing it through the HDMI output is fine, so no need for new hardware on it. I bet it can already be done easily, and that the dev hasn't implemented it because the signal wouldn't be compatible with modern displays anyway. But this would actually provide a solution for analogue users, who would simply need to use an HDMI to VGA converter (which can extract the audio too, or digital audio can be extracted via an HDMI switch) and a sync combiner like an Extron RGB interface. I would totally buy one if it had this one feature.

Additional features like easier CD image loading would be the icing on the cake, and would render the SSDS3 100% obsolete.


A small correction: the UGX uses a DVI connector, not HDMI. The reason for this is that a license to use HDMI costs money, and also that the signal that is output by the UGX isn't fully compliant with the standard.

retrorgb wrote:
Not true. All he'd have to do it change his code to not require a reference to CDM in the PCE CD files and he'd open up a LOT more compatibility. Sorry, I probably sound like I'm going after the guy, but I'm just being honest.


No problem. I tried to explain this to him, but he doesn't understand what you mean. Could you try explaining this is a different way, or with more detail?
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:13 pm 


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Could you try explaining this is a different way, or with more detail?

The creator is kinda forcing users to have their CD images created or formatted using some obscure imaging tool, which is silly, because the binary files aren't any different from your average image files, just the TOC files differ due to some syntax issues. If the firmware on the unit wasn't so picky about this particular toc syntax format, it would be much easier to just load existing images onto the machine.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:20 pm 



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Cuilan wrote:
A small correction: the UGX uses a DVI connector, not HDMI. The reason for this is that a license to use HDMI costs money, and also that the signal that is output by the UGX isn't fully compliant with the standard.


That makes sense. In any case, just tell him to output the original signal, and we'll take care of the conversion for use in analogue monitors!


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:21 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
The creator is kinda forcing users to have their CD images created or formatted using some obscure imaging tool, which is silly, because the binary files aren't any different from your average image files, just the TOC files differ due to some syntax issues. If the firmware on the unit wasn't so picky about this particular toc syntax format, it would be much easier to just load existing images onto the machine.


Alright, he's telling me that he wants to see an example of this in action so he can fully understand what it is you guys want him to do. I dunno how easy that would be to provide though.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:30 pm 



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Cuilan wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Is he aware of the very high demand for a model that only works as an ODE (with video output handled by the console) without any upscaling for analog monitor users? I'm guessing it would still need to have analog audio output only for the CD audio. Are there any plans to offer such a model?


I spoke to him about this, and he currently doesn't have the motivation to make something like that. He'd only consider it if he had at least one person to sponsor the development. The end product would be cheaper, but the initial time and money needed to create it would be too high for him to want to handle alone.

Also, there are two other projects that may fill this niche: Duenan's ODE and HuDebug are both supposedly still in development last I checked. If I were in his shoes I'd stick with the distinguishing feature (direct digital video) rather than enter a a market where I might soon be redundant.

fernan1234 wrote:
Always nice to hear about continued work on one of these devices. My only strong wish for the UGX-02 is the original unprocessed, unscaled, non-stretched 15kHz video output. Doing it through the HDMI output is fine, so no need for new hardware on it. I bet it can already be done easily, and that the dev hasn't implemented it because the signal wouldn't be compatible with modern displays anyway. But this would actually provide a solution for analogue users, who would simply need to use an HDMI to VGA converter (which can extract the audio too, or digital audio can be extracted via an HDMI switch) and a sync combiner like an Extron RGB interface. I would totally buy one if it had this one feature.

Additional features like easier CD image loading would be the icing on the cake, and would render the SSDS3 100% obsolete.

I would like to see that as well. UGX-02 actually has a headphone jack, presumably because many DVI displays don't support audio over DVI... even DVI HDTVs like my old Sony XBR910. The headphone jack would pair perfectly with 240p output with an HDMI to VGA converter.

Personally, I want to see 1200p or 1080p (cropped) 5x mode so I can get an integer scale on a 1200p or 1080p monitor with an aspect closer to the original.

retrorgb wrote:
Cuilan wrote:
FBX wrote:
Bob tried talking to the guy that made it in the hopes he would support more modern and common image formats, as well as fix some of the issues, but he said the guy was stubborn and refused to change it.

It's not about him being stubborn. Adding support for other formats would require a lot of extra work, and not only to implement them, but also to debug any problems that would pop up. Because of that, he currently has no interest in adding any others, though he might do so in the future

Not true. All he'd have to do it change his code to not require a reference to CDM in the PCE CD files and he'd open up a LOT more compatibility. Sorry, I probably sound like I'm going after the guy, but I'm just being honest.

Yes, it would be really easy to add support for CloneCD files but I've done a lot of digging and there just don't seem to be many PCE/TGCD titles distributed in CCD format. For those, I wrote a batch file that copies the *.ccd file to *.cdm and then changes the first two lines to "[CDManipulator]" and "Version=2" (from "[CloneCD]" and "Version=3").

I then proceeded to rip about 30 games with CloneCD instead of CD Manipulator since I happen to own a license. When it came time to load the games on my SD card for the UGX I realized that my batch code was on a different computer, so I just did all 30 by hand in about a minute and a half (keyboard shortcut warrior here ;)). I found a lot of BIN/CUE, ISO/WAV, CHD, etc images but still haven't found a CloneCD image of a PCE/TGCD title in the wild. [Edit: OK, I've finally found a huge set of old CCD rips to fill in the gaps from the June 2019 ReDump set. Someone with this set could definitely use CCD support!]

I did make a batch file for extracting BIN/CUE from a Mame CHD image set and used that to get a lot of the titles that were missing from the ReDump set. Unlike the CCD2CDM batch file, that one actually came in handy: I'd just drag and drop six images at a time with the appropriate MAME utils around and it would create the BIN/CUE output files I needed. Yes, I still needed to get those to *.ccd/cdm format, which I did using a virtual drive.

Cuilan wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Always nice to hear about continued work on one of these devices. My only strong wish for the UGX-02 is the original unprocessed, unscaled, non-stretched 15kHz video output. Doing it through the HDMI output is fine, so no need for new hardware on it. I bet it can already be done easily, and that the dev hasn't implemented it because the signal wouldn't be compatible with modern displays anyway....

A small correction: the UGX uses a DVI connector, not HDMI. The reason for this is that a license to use HDMI costs money, and also that the signal that is output by the UGX isn't fully compliant with the standard.

Yeah, but even stuff that does have an HDMI connector like the OSSC isn't technically compliant (my OSSC still has a DVI connector). The active adapter people use for this purpose (240/480p HDMI to VGA) may even come in a DVI flavor, though most DVI to VGA adapters are passive and require analog output from the source device.

To most people, DVI is just an alternate connection for HDMI... just like miniHDMI, microHDMI, DisplayPort, MHL, etc.
Also very much like USB-A, USB-B, USB-C, miniUSB-B, microUSB-B, microUSB 3.0, etc: All USB as far as we are concerned. :)

Just trying to put it in perspective for folks who may balk at it being DVI instead of HDMI: An extra adapter is also needed to use that HDMI to VGA adapter with a RetroTink 2X, since it's miniHDMI type-C. Needing a miniHDMI>HDMI adapter is really no worse than needing a DVI>HDMI adapter. My brother is the only person I've ever heard complain about UltraHDMI, GCDual, DCHDMI, WiiDual, etc using miniHDMI, so I think most people should be OK with DVI the same way.

Cuilan wrote:
retrorgb wrote:
Not true. All he'd have to do it change his code to not require a reference to CDM in the PCE CD files and he'd open up a LOT more compatibility. Sorry, I probably sound like I'm going after the guy, but I'm just being honest.


No problem. I tried to explain this to him, but he doesn't understand what you mean. Could you try explaining this is a different way, or with more detail?

The program he supports for ripping CD games, CDManipulator, is essentially generating CloneCD images with a "cdm" file instead of a "ccd" file. Literally the only difference other than the filename extension is the first two lines in the file, which simply label the file as a CloneCD or CDManipulator. If the UGX-02 software "ikaebi" recognized both them instead of just one then people with CloneCD images would not have to rename the ccd file and edit the first two lines of text. CDManipulator is not even known outside of Japan so you aren't going to just download a game and find a cdm file while it is possible to find games with a ccd file. CDManipulator appears to be free so I've got no problem using it to make rips of my original discs in the first place but, well, I do own CloneCD and CDManipulator doesn't like some of my virtual drives. ;)

Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Could you try explaining this is a different way, or with more detail?

The creator is kinda forcing users to have their CD images created or formatted using some obscure imaging tool, which is silly, because the binary files aren't any different from your average image files, just the TOC files differ due to some syntax issues. If the firmware on the unit wasn't so picky about this particular toc syntax format, it would be much easier to just load existing images onto the machine.

Close, but it's not the FW... it's the "ikaebi" application you use to write images to the SD card. The file browser filters for cdm files and doesn't even show ccd. If you rename the ccd files to cdm it will still require those two lines at the start identifying the file as a CDManipulator Version 2 file. You can edit it with Notepad since it's essentially just a text file, but all the renaming and editing all the ccd files could get tedious if you have a large collection of CloneCD rips.

Cuilan wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
The creator is kinda forcing users to have their CD images created or formatted using some obscure imaging tool, which is silly, because the binary files aren't any different from your average image files, just the TOC files differ due to some syntax issues. If the firmware on the unit wasn't so picky about this particular toc syntax format, it would be much easier to just load existing images onto the machine.

Alright, he's telling me that he wants to see an example of this in action so he can fully understand what it is you guys want him to do. I dunno how easy that would be to provide though.

Simple: Just get rid of the steps outlined in Q1 on this page of his site:
http://www.upergrafx.com/cdrom2_setup_en

It's literally no harder than what he's already done. If he didn't care about continuing to support CDManipulator he could literally "Search and Replace" the references to cdm and CDManipulator in his code. That said, CDManipulator is free and CloneCD is not, so he should support both. Again: I'm using CloneCD because I happen to own it and it works better with other image formats mounted to a virtual drive.

Changing this behavior would also let people use their existing collection/downloads if they happen to be ripped in CloneCD format (literally a million times more likely outside of Japan). No one is asking him to support an entirely new image format just so that we can download games and copy them to the card directly. Just duplicate and edit a few lines so that those of us with ccd rips for *whatever* reason can use them without futzing around with filenames and text editors.

If it sounds like I'm complaining, remember that it didn't really slow me down so this isn't a personal complaint. Still, I can see where it would slow down and frustrate most people who have a bunch of ccd rips instead and it looks just stupid-easy to fix. I'm still refining the batch file as I write a my own user guide but I'm hoping he'll just update ikaebi and make this whole thing pointless.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:09 am 



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Posts: 59
New UperGrafx FW is out!
https://youtu.be/_Bv0uUnJcqA

It now resets to the game list instead of the System Card when you do an in-game reset (IGR; Run+Select), which means no more power-cycling when you want to change games. It also returns to the last menu (game list) if you power-cycle.

Some IREM CD titles don't like IGR so they added per-game settings (disable for Image Fight II and R-Type Complete). This is also useful for games which need slow read speed. The per-game setting overrides the global one so everything else can still load fast.

David Shadoff helped with simulated disc access speeds and he tells me that the the “Normal” setting is pretty much perfect now. It can now play some titles even SSDS3 has issues with, like the Consulting Detective series.

You can now load images as CD-audio by pressing Select to change the icon. You can also set different disc icons with the PC software to indicate what system card each title uses. Maybe we’re moving toward a setup where the correct virtual syscard is auto-selected as specified by the per-game icon. It’s pretty easy the way it is but any extra polish is welcome.

Looks like UGX-01 users get optical drive emulation and some flash cart support (doesn’t load larger HuCard titles or a virtual Super System Card like UGX-02). I think Bob had one when he first looked at UperGrafx, so ODE on UGX-01 might've been working since last year.

You just rename, move, delete, or add a game using the new software and the old SD card will automatically get initialized with the new settings. No need to rebuild. Edit: New software doesn't like JMicron PCIe SD card reader. "MiniGW" error.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:50 pm 



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Posts: 59
...and less than a month later: New UperGrafx FW update! Not a huge one on its own but there was a significant mid-cycle update:
The UGX creator patched the Super System Card BIOS to work in tandem with the UGX to load games significantly faster. This only works on UGX-02 since the older model does not support a virtual Super System Card.

Back to the actual update: Looking at the Twitter exchanges between @upergrafx and @Shadoff_d (David Shadoff), it seems that they found a glitch with the way the original hardware handles playback at the end of certain audio tracks and now they have replicated it. I think they're saying it fixes Snatcher CD-ROMantic.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:02 pm 



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Posts: 694
Really neat updates. I grew increasingly disappointed with some emulation issues on the SSDS3 (not to mention the audio stuff) and replaced it with a RBP that performs better in every single metric. The UGX sounds just like what I need to return to original hardware. But as a CRT user I'll still have to wait for it to output the original unscaled video signal. Really hope that happens some day.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:39 pm 


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I certainly hope the developer worked on his GUI menus. It was Japanese-style nonsensical and glitchy as hell.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:31 am 



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Posts: 59
fernan1234 wrote:
Really neat updates. I grew increasingly disappointed with some emulation issues on the SSDS3 (not to mention the audio stuff) and replaced it with a RBP that performs better in every single metric. The UGX sounds just like what I need to return to original hardware. But as a CRT user I'll still have to wait for it to output the original unscaled video signal. Really hope that happens some day.

Same but I don't think the creator understands why we want it. He insists that it won't work because 240p is outside of HDMI spec and I respond by telling him that we are aware but we aren't planning to use it with a digital display (VGA adapter). I've even linked him to MikeChi's Zapper demo with RetroTink 2X on a PVM through the VGA adapter.

You can, of course, do an internal RGB mod and use that but you'd be bypassing the UGX video and getting all the quirks of typical PC Engine RGB (jailbars and such). You'd just be using the UGX as an ODE that cost more than the SSDS3. I mean, a lot of people say they want an ODE-only device that is cheaper than SSDS3 and UGX-02 but I doubt he could make it too much cheaper and I think that he'd be giving up the only thing that potentially makes the UGX-02 more compelling.

FBX wrote:
I certainly hope the developer worked on his GUI menus. It was Japanese-style nonsensical and glitchy as hell.

Well, I just found a glitch in the latest FW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwanWoaAFBw
;)

FWIW, the GUI was already much better than the one RetroRGB and co evaluated earlier this year. That was not even a UGX-02 so it was stuck on some 2018 FW that enabled half the functionality. The missing functionality further impacted the usability and UI. It was actually a strange version of the device that was never officially offered to the public and I'm really confused why it was being evaluated as a product they actually offer for sale.

For example, Bob's device could not boot without a Super System Card even though the FW he was using supported an internal/virtual Super System Card on UGX-02. This prompted him to say that there was no reason it could not have a Super System Card built-in, even though the real UGX-02 does! All you'd do with a real UGX-02 is pick your system card and disc image out of a list then press Run. It remembers both selections and returns you to the list so all you have to do is change one of your selections and press Run to play something else.

Still, Bob said that the list was "Just a list" and that pressing Run did nothing. Though that was the case for his strange unit that did not support the virtual Super System Card, it was not true for the actual product that they sell/promote. You know: the UGX-02 that this thread is about and what everyone assumed was being discussed in the video. I think they really did themselves a disservice by sending Bob some half-baked "lite" version and giving everyone the impression that was what UGX-02 was like.

Also, he didn't seem to notice that his position in the list was changing the disc image number on the other menu and that there was no reason to manipulate the image number from the settings menu. If it were a UGX-02 he could've just pressed "Run" and started the game his cursor was on without power cycling or going back to the settings/config menu.

I can't blame him. He seemed to be unaware that he wasn't evaluating a real UGX-02, which was the only one officially marketed on the website with an ODE function... though it seems they've retroactively added minimal ODE functions to some older units.

Unlike that unit, an up-to-date UGX-02 with games already loaded typically works like this:
-You turn on your PC Engine with nothing in the slot and you get a list of games because that is what you last saw when using it.
-You move your cursor to the CD-ROM² game you want and press "Run."
-Just like a booting on a real CD-unit, you will see the System Card screen where you can start the game.
-When you want to play something else you invoke the near-universal "Run+Select to reset" thing and it returns you to the game list instead of the System Card screen.

You rarely need the confusing settings/config screen so you almost never see it in daily use.


Last edited by CZroe on Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:27 pm 


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CZroe wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
it won't work because 240p is outside of HDMI spec


240p support is explicitly listed in the HDMI spec as an optionally supported resolution. See here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160305072 ... ion13a.pdf

Page 86, section6.3.2, "Secondary Video Format Timinsgs", you will find "720(1440)x240p @ 59.94/60Hz" and "720(1440)x288p @ 50Hz" and "2880x240p @ 59.94/60Hz"

You will also find a variety of other references to 240p in the spec, such as in the colorimetry section, the video dependency section for audio encoding, the section for info frames (240p requires pixel repetition to hit the minimum pixel rate, and you need to inform the video sink how many times each pixel will be repeated).

The HDMI spec is not the primary spec for the video handling portion, as it's only a supplement on top of CEA-861D, and you can read that here: http://read.pudn.com/downloads222/doc/1 ... EA861D.pdf

In CEA-861D, which the HDMI spec repeatedly refers to as the standard that it supplements, you will find many references to 240p/288p, where it is defined as formats 8, 9, 12, 13, 23, 24, 27, and 28. The precise video timings for all of these are provided, with nice oscilloscope-type graphs of sync timing.

That's the 1.3 spec, as a quick search didn't turn up the 1.4 spec, but I highly doubt they'd remove a supported video mode in the newer spec.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:50 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 694
Guspaz wrote:
240p support is explicitly listed in the HDMI spec as an optionally supported resolution. See here:


Yes indeed, I worded that inaccurately. The Raspberry Pi is an example of a device that outputs via HDMI 240p (as well as in 16:9 and/or with pixel-quadrupling 240p), though only at 60Hz, using CEA modes (https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... t/video.md).

I should have rather said that most digital displays do not support it, but of course that's not why we want it. I was also wrong that this uses HDMI, as it uses DVI, but it's trivial to convert it to HDMI with a simple adapter.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:41 pm 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
Guspaz wrote:
CZroe wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
it won't work because 240p is outside of HDMI spec


240p support is explicitly listed in the HDMI spec as an optionally supported resolution. See here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160305072 ... ion13a.pdf

Page 86, section6.3.2, "Secondary Video Format Timinsgs", you will find "720(1440)x240p @ 59.94/60Hz" and "720(1440)x288p @ 50Hz" and "2880x240p @ 59.94/60Hz"

You will also find a variety of other references to 240p in the spec, such as in the colorimetry section, the video dependency section for audio encoding, the section for info frames (240p requires pixel repetition to hit the minimum pixel rate, and you need to inform the video sink how many times each pixel will be repeated).

The HDMI spec is not the primary spec for the video handling portion, as it's only a supplement on top of CEA-861D, and you can read that here: http://read.pudn.com/downloads222/doc/1 ... EA861D.pdf

In CEA-861D, which the HDMI spec repeatedly refers to as the standard that it supplements, you will find many references to 240p/288p, where it is defined as formats 8, 9, 12, 13, 23, 24, 27, and 28. The precise video timings for all of these are provided, with nice oscilloscope-type graphs of sync timing.

That's the 1.3 spec, as a quick search didn't turn up the 1.4 spec, but I highly doubt they'd remove a supported video mode in the newer spec.
Thanks. I think I understand. This is talking about how to transmit 240p over HDMI, but it does so by essentially multiplying pixels and lines... so it's no longer 15khz 240p which can be easily be converted back to 15khz 240p RGBHV using a VGA adapter. That's the kind of 240p he is saying would be incompatible but we see others doing it all the time.

...or have I been wrong this whole time and "direct mode" for UltraHDMI, RetroTink 2X, and OSSC are putting line-doubled 240p (480p) through those VGA adapters?

fernan1234 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
240p support is explicitly listed in the HDMI spec as an optionally supported resolution. See here:


Yes indeed, I worded that inaccurately. The Raspberry Pi is an example of a device that outputs via HDMI 240p (as well as in 16:9 and/or with pixel-quadrupling 240p), though only at 60Hz, using CEA modes (https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... t/video.md).

I should have rather said that most digital displays do not support it, but of course that's not why we want it. I was also wrong that this uses HDMI, as it uses DVI, but it's trivial to convert it to HDMI with a simple adapter.

Yes, it's the display support that I'm trying to get him to disregard, since the feature would not be for digital displays.

For digital displays I prefer an integer scale. That typically means 5x for 1080p/1200p or 3x for 4K (at the mercy of the internal scaler for that last 3x). Luckily, I can do this with UltraHDMI, Mega Sg, Super Nt, etc. Really stings that we don't have it in Hi-Def NES. Still, what the UGX needs is a proper way to get 240p RGBS or RGBHV out of it. Heck, I'll settle for 480p RGBHV at this point.


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