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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:06 pm 


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Quote:
I'm more curious about how you're claiming to get accurate-ish 1080p upscaling.

As I said, imagine an integer prescale followed with a bilinear scaling. You have to do this anyway, otherwise you'd be locked to the narrow pixel aspect ratio of most PCE games (256px width). Once you apply filtering already, why limit yourself to one axis? You obviously have a 1080p TV or monitor, right? Why not simple give it a try, by connecting something that outputs 720p?

Quote:
I did NOT want to. That other guy was really having trouble reading anything not typed by me though.

by then again your posts were nonsense and the link you provided had nothing to do whatsoever with the topic discussed, so why blame him?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:10 pm 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 352
Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
I'm more curious about how you're claiming to get accurate-ish 1080p upscaling.

As I said, imagine an integer prescale followed with a bilinear scaling. You have to do this anyway, otherwise you'd be locked to the narrow pixel aspect ratio of most PCE games (256px width). Once you apply filtering already, why limit yourself to one axis? You obviously have a 1080p TV or monitor, right? Why not simple give it a try, by connecting something that outputs 720p?

Quote:
I did NOT want to. That other guy was really having trouble reading anything not typed by me though.

by then again your posts were nonsense and the link you provided had nothing to do whatsoever with the topic discussed, so why blame him?


The point of the link was to show that height and width had to be factored in and the rest of the equation was that he had no idea what an integer was. And it was not nonsense because that information and explanation came straight from numerous MyLifeInGaming videos talking about upscalers and the best way to play various consoles. Never once have they said anything about prescaling or bilinear scaling. The every other pixel getting doubled is the explanation they provided. While it is understandable not everything would upscale the same way there is no magic solution I'm aware of that can fix pixel rounding.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:36 pm 



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Wolf_ wrote:
The point of the link was to show that height and width had to be factored in and the rest of the equation was that he had no idea what an integer was. And it was not nonsense because that information and explanation came straight from numerous MyLifeInGaming videos talking about upscalers and the best way to play various consoles. Never once have they said anything about prescaling or bilinear scaling. The every other pixel getting doubled is the explanation they provided. While it is understandable not everything would upscale the same way there is no magic solution I'm aware of that can fix pixel rounding.


It must feel great to hop on to an Internet forum and belittle someone who is genuinely trying to understand. If you are so incredibly smart, you should have been able to surmise where his confusion was and simply steered him in the right direction. For example, "Yeah, a straight integer scaling won't work, but if you pad the 960 height to 1080, you can retain the integer ratio."

I am incredibly thankful that guys like Fudoh (and countless others) are accepting of newcomers and people with limited knowledge and they coach people up and help them learn. It makes this a great corner of the web for people interested in these topics. Your behavior pulls this place down and for no good reason. My question to you: why?

</rant>


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:48 pm 


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MyLifeInGaming videos talking about upscalers and the best way to play various consoles. Never once have they said anything about prescaling or bilinear scaling.

actually they did all the time. When you're using an OSSC in 3x mode with optimized timing, you're aiming at integer prescale ONLY. If you're using a Framemeister you're using integer scale on the vertical and prescale + bilinear filtering on the horizontal. If you connect an OSSC in 3x to your TV the OSSC does the prescale for you while the TV does the filtered scaling from 720p to 1080p.

Your TV maybe won't call it this way, but it's the same thing. Here we're talking about an external upscaler working similar to an OSSC or a Framemeister, so it makes sense to compare it to those. As long as the TV or monitor used doesn't completely screw up the additional upscaling, 720p is hands down the easiest way to output processed 240p.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:24 am 



Joined: 19 Oct 2013
Posts: 552
Location: Riverside, CA
Wolf_ wrote:
DejahThoris wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
4) The price is totally justified if you have a TG-CD collection/want to.


I feel like the opposite is more true. For $400-something dollars you're not going to get far in collecting TG-CD/PCE-CD. But if you just want to play them this is gonna be WAY cheaper than collecting.


If you want to play them via a huge burned disc collection and wear out your laser faster which will require you to replace a part that hasn't been in production for decades and isn't going to be cheap. Also this plays them with reduced loading times. Price is totally justified in my mind as long as it eventually supports the entire library of games and homebrews.


You misunderstood me. You said that the price was justified IF you have a TG-CD collection/want to. I was saying it's justified if you DON'T have a collection or intend on investing in one, because it saves you a ton of money.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:15 am 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 352
Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
MyLifeInGaming videos talking about upscalers and the best way to play various consoles. Never once have they said anything about prescaling or bilinear scaling.

actually they did all the time. When you're using an OSSC in 3x mode with optimized timing, you're aiming at integer prescale ONLY. If you're using a Framemeister you're using integer scale on the vertical and prescale + bilinear filtering on the horizontal. If you connect an OSSC in 3x to your TV the OSSC does the prescale for you while the TV does the filtered scaling from 720p to 1080p.

Your TV maybe won't call it this way, but it's the same thing. Here we're talking about an external upscaler working similar to an OSSC or a Framemeister, so it makes sense to compare it to those. As long as the TV or monitor used doesn't completely screw up the additional upscaling, 720p is hands down the easiest way to output processed 240p.


1080p would be the best because then your additional display wouldn't have to do any additional processing which might cause problems or add lag.

strygo wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
The point of the link was to show that height and width had to be factored in and the rest of the equation was that he had no idea what an integer was. And it was not nonsense because that information and explanation came straight from numerous MyLifeInGaming videos talking about upscalers and the best way to play various consoles. Never once have they said anything about prescaling or bilinear scaling. The every other pixel getting doubled is the explanation they provided. While it is understandable not everything would upscale the same way there is no magic solution I'm aware of that can fix pixel rounding.


It must feel great to hop on to an Internet forum and belittle someone who is genuinely trying to understand. If you are so incredibly smart, you should have been able to surmise where his confusion was and simply steered him in the right direction. For example, "Yeah, a straight integer scaling won't work, but if you pad the 960 height to 1080, you can retain the integer ratio."

I am incredibly thankful that guys like Fudoh (and countless others) are accepting of newcomers and people with limited knowledge and they coach people up and help them learn. It makes this a great corner of the web for people interested in these topics. Your behavior pulls this place down and for no good reason. My question to you: why?

</rant>


Actually I was perfectly nice to him until he belittled me and then I obliterated him. I appreciate your sympathies which should logically be directed towards me now though.

DejahThoris wrote:
You misunderstood me. You said that the price was justified IF you have a TG-CD collection/want to. I was saying it's justified if you DON'T have a collection or intend on investing in one, because it saves you a ton of money.


Either way it is justified because you could always sell your collection to recoup your investment if this turns out to be superior and you're tight on cash.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:45 pm 


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Quote:
1080p would be the best because then your additional display wouldn't have to do any additional processing which might cause problems or add lag.

the idea is right of course, it just doesn't work in real life. The algorithms your TV uses to scale from 720p to 1080p are quite hard to realize on a cheap outboard scaler. And since 1080p isn't an integer scale from your 240p source you cannot simply work with "cheap" line multiplers.

This said, I haven't seen the UGX-02 live, so I don't even know if it manages to do the aspect ratio correction from 16:15 to 4:3 after the initial tripling in any good way. We'll have to wait and see.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:10 pm 


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Wolf_ wrote:
Actually I was perfectly nice to him until he belittled me and then I obliterated him.

Interesting definition of "obliterated". Being intentionally obtuse, linking to irrelevant web pages and attacking people asking for clarification probably does not qualify as "obliterating" for anyone else here.

If you had actually read the web page you kept linking to, you would've noticed that while it does mention centering (their terminology for windowboxing), it does not recommend it except for images close to the screen size and it does not feature "integer scale as far as possible and pad the remaining space" at all. Padding 33% of the image height (480->720) probably would not count as "close to the sreen size" for the author of that web page.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:33 pm 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 352
Unseen wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Actually I was perfectly nice to him until he belittled me and then I obliterated him.

Interesting definition of "obliterated". Being intentionally obtuse, linking to irrelevant web pages and attacking people asking for clarification probably does not qualify as "obliterating" for anyone else here.

If you had actually read the web page you kept linking to, you would've noticed that while it does mention centering (their terminology for windowboxing), it does not recommend it except for images close to the screen size and it does not feature "integer scale as far as possible and pad the remaining space" at all. Padding 33% of the image height (480->720) probably would not count as "close to the sreen size" for the author of that web page.


My god, now you can't even read what I type, your condition is worsening. As explained, the short article I linked you to was to point out that you were only looking at one measurement and both height and width exist (believe it or not). The rest of the solution simply required you to understand what an integer was. I figured it would be simple to look at the measurements and do some basic math but evidently I was wrong and should have spoon fed you from the start.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:22 pm 


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Wolf_ wrote:
As explained, the short article I linked you to was to point out that you were only looking at one measurement and both height and width exist (believe it or not). The rest of the solution simply required you to understand what an integer was. I figured it would be simple to look at the measurements and do some basic math but evidently I was wrong and should have spoon fed you from the start.

Sure, a width exists. It has to be scaled seperately and with a different factor from height though, otherwise the aspect ratio of the target image is wrong. We're talking about the PC engine after all, which can switch between three different pixel clocks, corresponding to three different pixel aspect ratios, all of which must be displayed as a 4:3 image in the end to match the image seen on a CRT screen which has no concept of horizontal pixels anyway.

But given the intellectual superiority you seem to imply in your posts, you already knew this and ran the numbers to figure out the optimal scaling factors for each PC Engine resolution and output resolution pair. Would you mind telling us the results?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:38 pm 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 352
Unseen wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
As explained, the short article I linked you to was to point out that you were only looking at one measurement and both height and width exist (believe it or not). The rest of the solution simply required you to understand what an integer was. I figured it would be simple to look at the measurements and do some basic math but evidently I was wrong and should have spoon fed you from the start.

Sure, a width exists. It has to be scaled seperately and with a different factor from height though, otherwise the aspect ratio of the target image is wrong. We're talking about the PC engine after all, which can switch between three different pixel clocks, corresponding to three different pixel aspect ratios, all of which must be displayed as a 4:3 image in the end to match the image seen on a CRT screen which has no concept of horizontal pixels anyway.

But given the intellectual superiority you seem to imply in your posts, you already knew this and ran the numbers to figure out the optimal scaling factors for each PC Engine resolution and output resolution pair. Would you mind telling us the results?


Ideally the height and width would both be scaled the same. Some prefer a different integer for them to avoid a "blocky" look without scanlines but that's strictly opinion based and false scanlines can be added anyways.

As for the different image resolutions it can switch between, that's an even bigger reason to support 1080p as god only knows how it is scaling the images to get them to 720p from 3 different resolutions so the display then doing whatever it needs to on top of that scaling is going to have the potential to cause even weirder distortions.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:56 pm 



Joined: 19 Oct 2013
Posts: 552
Location: Riverside, CA
Wolf_ wrote:
As for the different image resolutions it can switch between, that's an even bigger reason to support 1080p as god only knows how it is scaling the images to get them to 720p from 3 different resolutions so the display then doing whatever it needs to on top of that scaling is going to have the potential to cause even weirder distortions.


The display is going to receive 720p any which way, it doesn't make a difference how it got there when it makes the jump from 720 to 1080.

If you're that bothered, either make your own upscaler, or if you're lazy (since you seem to be intelligent enough to build one), just buy a display that with a native 720p resolution and call it a day. You're already looking at $400+, what's another fifty bucks spent on a Craigslist TV?

And you didn't "obliterate" anyone, the only thing you accomplished was making yourself look like a jerk. Soften up a bit, this is generally a friendly place.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:08 pm 


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DejahThoris wrote:
just buy a display that with a native 720p resolution and call it a day.


Models of displays with a native 720p resolution?

That is the problem with 720p, there might have been 1 (maybe 2) LCD ever released once upon a time that had a native resolution of 720p, but yeah you won't be able to track one down in 2017 and their specs are pretty bad anyways compared to the best 1080p/4K TVs.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:25 pm 


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Wolf_ wrote:
Ideally the height and width would both be scaled the same. Some prefer a different integer for them to avoid a "blocky" look without scanlines but that's strictly opinion based and false scanlines can be added anyways.


That's a great way to absolutely butcher the intended aspect ratio.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:36 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Ideally the height and width would both be scaled the same. Some prefer a different integer for them to avoid a "blocky" look without scanlines but that's strictly opinion based and false scanlines can be added anyways.


That's a great way to absolutely butcher the intended aspect ratio.


Agreed.

The other option is to leave large areas of the screen blank.

Either way, I don't want it.

The output should be 4:3 and all the vertical screen real estate should be used.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:58 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
The output should be 4:3


Problem with this is that 4:3 is not supported for HD resolutions.

Not even the Sony BVM-A series support 4:3 for HD resolutions:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:22 pm 


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As in a 4:3 ratio image embedded inside a standard HD signal, be it 720p or 1080p.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:23 pm 


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Quote:
Problem with this is that 4:3 is not supported for HD resolutions.
Not even the Sony BVM-A series support 4:3 for HD resolutions:

he meant that the visible playfield should be 4:3 (instead of some weird pixel aspect ratio). The signal is 16:9 of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:50 am 



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Lawfer wrote:
DejahThoris wrote:
just buy a display that with a native 720p resolution and call it a day.


Models of displays with a native 720p resolution?

That is the problem with 720p, there might have been 1 (maybe 2) LCD ever released once upon a time that had a native resolution of 720p, but yeah you won't be able to track one down in 2017 and their specs are pretty bad anyways compared to the best 1080p/4K TVs.


Best Buy has 30 current model 720p TV's on their site... I'm sure other retailers have some different ones as well.

My first HDTV didn't have 1080p (or 1080i for that matter) support. So there's at least 31 models :P. And I'd assume a bunch more were made in-between now and then.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:08 am 


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DejahThoris wrote:
Best Buy has 30 current model 720p TV's on their site... I'm sure other retailers have some different ones as well.

My first HDTV didn't have 1080p (or 1080i for that matter) support. So there's at least 31 models :P.


Most "720p" displays are 768p.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:02 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
Most "720p" displays are 768p.


"Most". Certainly not all but one or two in the past decade.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:10 pm 


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DejahThoris wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Most "720p" displays are 768p.


"Most". Certainly not all but one or two in the past decade.


I like turtles.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:22 pm 


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DejahThoris wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Most "720p" displays are 768p.


"Most". Certainly not all but one or two in the past decade.


No actually he is right, 99.99% of TVs sold as "720p" are actually 768p. You won't be able to get a TV with native 1280x720 resolution and 768p is worthless.

You want native 720p? Try to track down the Westinghouse W32701 or the Toshiba 27HLV95.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:23 pm 


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Wolf_ wrote:
Unseen wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Actually I was perfectly nice to him until he belittled me and then I obliterated him.

Interesting definition of "obliterated". Being intentionally obtuse, linking to irrelevant web pages and attacking people asking for clarification probably does not qualify as "obliterating" for anyone else here.

If you had actually read the web page you kept linking to, you would've noticed that while it does mention centering (their terminology for windowboxing), it does not recommend it except for images close to the screen size and it does not feature "integer scale as far as possible and pad the remaining space" at all. Padding 33% of the image height (480->720) probably would not count as "close to the sreen size" for the author of that web page.


My god, now you can't even read what I type, your condition is worsening. As explained, the short article I linked you to was to point out that you were only looking at one measurement and both height and width exist (believe it or not). The rest of the solution simply required you to understand what an integer was. I figured it would be simple to look at the measurements and do some basic math but evidently I was wrong and should have spoon fed you from the start.

...

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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:50 am 



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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
MyLifeInGaming videos talking about upscalers and the best way to play various consoles. Never once have they said anything about prescaling or bilinear scaling.

actually they did all the time. When you're using an OSSC in 3x mode with optimized timing, you're aiming at integer prescale ONLY. If you're using a Framemeister you're using integer scale on the vertical and prescale + bilinear filtering on the horizontal. If you connect an OSSC in 3x to your TV the OSSC does the prescale for you while the TV does the filtered scaling from 720p to 1080p.

Your TV maybe won't call it this way, but it's the same thing. Here we're talking about an external upscaler working similar to an OSSC or a Framemeister, so it makes sense to compare it to those. As long as the TV or monitor used doesn't completely screw up the additional upscaling, 720p is hands down the easiest way to output processed 240p.


Seconded on this. Unless someone does testing that shows that the majority of Tvs add additional latency when scaling from 720p to display native. Then the point is moot. 720p gets you a near full height image, and the upscaling to display res should take care of scaling artifacts from trying to stretch the image into a somewhat correct PAR.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:45 pm 



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Yes, I'm very late to this thread. Looks like I've got some catching up to do.

Guspaz wrote:
Only slightly less insanely overpriced, and still uses the silly vertical orientation.

Horizontal orientation could be worse without an enclosure that prevents you from levering the connection. Protruding straight out the back without support is dangerous. Remember the Zeldaxpro GC Video Plug & Play debacle? I get the impression that this is a slightly customized generic enclosure and that may have been asking too much. GameTechUS even called it a “project box.” Of course, a fully custom enclosure out the back would be safer. If it seems terribly unsafe I'll just 3D print my own design.

I’m more worried about the controller port on PCE/Turbo. Those scared me years before seeing my concerns validated by others breaking theirs. :( It doesn’t help that they often protrude off of your entertainment center and the connection got even smaller between TG16 and the Duo.

cr4zymanz0r wrote:
I don't care about a console specific video scaler at all, but they should make a much cheaper stand-alone CD-ROM2 SD loader.

It isn’t a scaler scaler though. It has more in common with Hi-Def NES except it’s Plug’n’Play. Like Hi-Def NES, it never samples the original graphics. It replicates the graphics chip to generate perfect digital video as if it was native, then it just line-triples.

Without the potential for mishandling 240p, there’s no reason not to let your TV scale instead of something like a Framemeister. Also, nothing is stopping us from turning off the monitor’s scaling to play a bordered 720p (many can do this). I’d prefer a 5x vertical by 6x horizontal cropped multiple for 1080p/1200p displays, but I’m OK with 720p vertical. Even Hi-Def NES had to go with 4x vertical and 5x horizontal to look right on 1080p (bordered on all sides).

Guspaz wrote:
Who cares what the original cost?

Uhh... you do? You asked (“previous version was $700 IIRC?”) and he answered.

Guspaz wrote:
I misremembered what Jason said in his video, and didn't spot it in the Japanese text when I looked at the page.

Yeah, and you even said “IIRC” while inviting a response, which prompted the correction you asked for. Totally bizarre response after you explicitly invited the correction for your cornerstone criticism.

Guspaz wrote:
If anything, that's even worse...

You thought UGX-01 was “insanely overpriced” when you thought it was $700, but $343.59 (¥38,664) is “even worse?” Uhh...
Guspaz wrote:
..., that he took an incredibly overpriced product and managed to [strike]substantially increase the price even higher[/strike][disproportionately increase the value with more functionality]!


FTFY. ;) It went up $56 and has gained just about everything another product that didn’t exist at the time sells for $275: Terra Onion Super SD System 3. There is almost no overlap with UGX-01's functionality. Both functions are pretty big deals.

[quote=“Guspaz”]The original pricepoint is still incredibly overpriced considering it can't even do 1080p, although even then it'd still be far too expensive.[/quote]
It was always intended to become a P’n’P ODE with a FW update. Yes, the original ultimately delivered less value than they intended. I don’t think it’s fair to hold that against UGX-02 when determining its value.

That said, 1080p didn’t seem to be such a sticking point for you when you weighed in on the SSDSys3 after that was announced. Of course, you did take another dig at UGX-02:
Guspaz wrote:
Compared to the Upergrafx 2, this thing:
  • Is $120 cheaper
  • Is apparently shipping (Upergrafx 2 was delayed due to quality issues)
  • Has all the CD system card functionality built-in (Upergrafx requires the original cards)
  • Can act as a flashcart for hucard games too
  • Works on the SuprGrafx
However, this thing doesn't upscale, so you'd need to pair it with an OSSC or Framemeister to get a similar effect in terms of 720p DVI video.

You acknowledged some of the extra expense for getting comparable video quality but it didn’t end up being so comparable in the end. You need two surgeries: one to fix the video and audio on the SSDSys3 and one to remove jailbars from the console.

We didn’t know at the time, but it’s amusing that the SSDSys3’s was also suspended/delayed mid-launch due to “quality issues” (many unresolved) and the UGX-02 has now has added every single function you listed there with one minor caveat. Of course, no one expects you to know the future, but your point about SuperGrafx was wrong even for the time.

Their shared functions (flash cart, sys card, ODE) work perfectly fine on SuperGrafx with UGX-02, so it isn’t that SSDSys3 works and UGX-02 doesn’t. The only concern with SuperGrafx is that it has two VDCs and the port where UGX gets digital signals only interfaces with one. This means you’ll be missing the extra sprites from SuperGrafx-enhanced games unless you use analog output... like the SSDSys3. No one is forcing you to use digital and you’ll actually have BETTER RGB than SSDSys3 if you mod that yourself. Might as well do the jailbar fix while you’re at it.

So, the only function that doesn’t work perfectly with the enhancements for a few SuperGrafx titles is the big one that SSDSys3 doesn’t have in the first place, so it’s not some big win for team Terra Onion. The workaround is to use it like you would an SSDSys3 (analog). It’s almost as minor as the SSDSys3 shell which doesn’t quite fit the TG16.

If you must have premium analog output with it and you don’t want to RGB mod your original console, I don’t think there’s anything stopping us from getting a cheap and fast HDMI to VGA converter to use with a PVM or OSSC just like people do with RetroTink 2X. It will definitely be cheaper than sending it off to Voultar to get the audio and video fixes applied to your SSDSys3. Just don’t cheap out with a RetroTink 2X when 1080p is supposedly so important! ;)

The “minor caveat” I mentioned above is that UGX-02’s internal System Card function doesn’t completely replicate an Arcade Card, though it does replicate an internal Super System Card which lets you use a cheaper Arcade Card Duo on systems that normally required an expensive Arcade Card Pro.

UGX-02 has more similarly-minor features that SSDSys3 does not. They added HuCard/TurboChip dumping and even the original could save digital screenshots to SD and overlay a grid. The grid is particularly useful for shmups games, which I think this forum might care about more than most. ;)

While the SSDSys3 user experience is undeniably more refined, UGX-02 has done a bit to close the gap. They recently added a menu listing titles on the SD card. Competition is a good thing... as are options.

Guspaz wrote:
I'm not arguing that the all-digital solution isn't technically superior, I'm arguing that the price is far too high to justify any advantages that the superior solution might produce.

You kinda were...

Guspaz wrote:
Buy a Framemeister (or an OSSC) and an Engine Block instead, you'll get the same quality and much more flexibility. Or, if you really want to use the CD functionality, buy a Framemeister or OSSC and pay Voultar to RGB mod your console.

I have an OSSC too, but that’s primarily for consoles without options like this. I still want direct digital video, especially when I can get it on original hardware. That’s why I have Hi-Def NES, Super Nt, UltraHDMI, and GCVideo right next to it with Mega Sg on the way. It’s definitely not an either-or thing.

The OSSC still gets plenty of use for Genesis 32X, Neo Geo AES, Neo Geo CD, Saturn, PlayStation, Master System, Dreamcast, TG-CD, etc. The list will shrink if I can add UGX-02 and Mega Sg cart adapters.
That doesn’t mean I’ll never use it for the platforms with better options. UltraHDMI does not deinterlace 480i games which potentially look better with OSSC. I used it last night after I finished up mod work on two consoles:
Turbo Duo recap + Voultar RGB board + jailbar fix*
SNS-101 (1chip mini) salvage** + Voultar’s C11 ghosting fix + RetroFixes RGB/S-Video board
*Jailbars are worse through OSSC; huge advantage for a digital/UGX-02
**successfully removed, straightened, reinstalled mangled CPU/PPU

I’m not even sure what you meant by “...if you really want to use the CD functionality, buy a Framemeister or OSSC and pay Voultar to RGB mod your console.” The suggested alternative does not give comparable quality, functionality, or expense. The OSSC is not cheap and the Framemeister is even more expensive. I also had to use an $85 Turbo Everdrive. You know what else I was missing? The ODE function. The SSDSys3 wasn’t even announced so I must be missing something here.

You’ll also have the same “flexibility” if you weren’t getting your analog RGB from the expansion connector. Just do the same multi-out mod you always had to do. UGX-02 should work fine with it.

Without doing any other mods digitizing analog RGB with warts and all would be a decidedly inferior option. You will be scaling jailbars and other interference which are usually even worse once digitized. With the Duo and OSSC they look pretty distracting even after the "fix."

Staying all-digital ensures flawless video quality. Incomparable.

Guspaz wrote:
We're talking about a device that costs three and a half times as much the Hi-Def NES and seven times as much as GCVideo despite both of those products having more sophisticated FPGAs.

Hi-Def NES didn’t have a built-in FDS and Everdrive and also couldn’t properly handle 1080p (no 5x vertical). It also isn’t Plug’n’Play with the original hardware, which is where much of the value lies:
I routinely sell Hi-Def NES for $500. Heck, you can even hear me discussing one such sale with the police in a viral video of mine.
I think this is a disingenuous comparison. You didn't even consider niche vs. mainstream.

Steamflogger Boss wrote:
The price is a joke. I can't imagine they will sell many of these. The CDROM drive replacement part is awesome, and hopefully gets implemented in another, cheaper product.

If SSDSys3 didn't do it for ya, several others have paid lip service to the idea. Contact one of these guys and let them know you’re still interested:
ElectronAsh (was very far along; canceled after SSDSys3)
KonamiGood (HuDebug for CD-ROM² games on a TurboExpress)
Deunan (mentioned possibility of a future ODE on his GDEMU site)

Hoagtech wrote:
Overpriced. And why would you code something to upscale without including multiple 240p sources.
This seems like an existing Malaysian upscaler being bought for 12 bucks and sunk into a plastic frame that sold for 410 bucks.
And who the F uses 720p?

It does not sample/capture and upscale so there wouldn’t be a place to connect other consoles. The thread title only says “upscaler” because properly handles 240p. I think it was a mistake to present it that way, since I don’t see anyone wondering why Hi-Def NES and Nt Mini don’t capture and upscale their other consoles (...and Super Nt, Mega Sg, etc but they weren’t announced at the time). 720p is a perfect 3x integer scale of 240p. 4K is a perfect integer scale of 720p. For 1080p displays the only reason to pre-scale is to do 5x cropped or 4x windowed/bordered. Plenty of 1080p displays can do windowed 720p to maintain the integer scaling.


Last edited by CZroe on Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:59 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:50 pm 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
Guspaz wrote:
Assuming that there were no other changes between revisions (the 720p limitation in both versions seems to indicate there weren't), we can see the cost of the ODE component: 44,980 - 35,800 = 9,180 JPY, or roughly US$412 - US$328 = US$84.
So it would seem that the upscaling component is worth $328, and the ODE component is worth $84.

It isn’t an “ODE component” packaged with an “upscaling component.” It uses an FPGA to replicate the VDC (just like Hi-Def NES and NESRGB replicate the NES PPU) and that FPGA had room to do more.
https://twitter.com/upergrafx/status/10 ... 81857?s=21

It’s very old which is why it maxes out at 720p, but the same FPGA is configurable enough to do the heavy lifting for CD-ROM² emulation too. That was obviously their intention from the start, which is why it had an SD card. It turned out that the UGX-01 hardware needed minor changes to enable the feature, hence, UGX-02. IIRC, they had to add some memory somewhere.

Guspaz wrote:
BONKERS wrote:
But I don't think it isn't worth the value considering it is plug and play, comes with an enclosure, a console specific high res upscaler without artifacts and no necessary tweaking, and optical drive emulation.

The problem is that the value is highly restricted by it being console-specific. If we assume the previously mentioned breakdown is correct, then you've got a product that costs twice as much as the OSSC, which is also plug-and-play without any tweaking if you have a compatible display, but can handle many more consoles than just the PCE.


This comparison is only relevant if you’re only interested in getting properly-scaled digital video, but this is supposed to be about UGX-02. I can’t just plug my OSSC into my TG16, N64, NES, etc, and it definitely isn’t giving me perfect digital video with flash cart and ODE functions.

Since you’re only considering video in this comparison, look at what Hi-Def NES and UltraHDMI, sell for *installed.* Now consider that the PCE was extremely popular in Japan. It really is equivalent to an installed Hi-Def NES/UltraHDMI to them... minus the $50 console.

This is a Japanese product primarily marketed to PCE enthusiasts in Japan, after all. It’s just to say that their PCE enthusiasts can be as dedicated to getting maximum digital video quality as our N64 and NES enthusiasts. I don’t think the people who have paid me over $1,000 for preinstalled UltraHDMI have a good grip on value either, but it definitely isn’t as simple as “OSSC with plug in RGB adapter is cheaper, thus, no interest/sales.”

Of course, now we have a decent option even cheaper than OSSC:
Internal RGB mod or Engine Block clone + HD Retrovision + RetroTink 2x. Neither is perfect, and since I only get Line 2X on my primary display with OSSC anyway, this is a compelling alternative that can be used with many other consoles (cheap dongle adapters).

Guspaz wrote:
I'd argue that the ODE component is the part that is, if its price is isolated by itself (to US$84), a good deal. That said, there are clearly alternative solutions being worked on for the ODE portion, meaning you will be able to get great quality video out of the PCE while still using an ODE for only a fraction the price.

Well, you were half-right. The SSDSys3 didn’t exactly deliver “great quality video out” but it was tolerable and some improvement if you already had OSSC/Framemeister. It wasn’t the only alternative being worked on, though we may never see the others.

ElectronAsh says he stopped making his. KonamiGood’s HuDebug seems to have gone back into hibernation after demonstrating CD-ROM² games on a PCE GT/TurboExpress (was already an old project). Only thing I ever heard from Deunan (GDEMU) was several years ago right after he got a TG16 and said he might look into the possibility. Of course, there’s always the possibility that Kevtris might cook something up but he hasn’t said anything on the matter regarding ODEs (shot down a Sega CD FPGA implementation for obvious reasons tho’).

The more options, the better, but it looks like we’re stuck with these two for now.

ZellSF wrote:
Is the 720p output of this so much cleaner than a RGB modded DUO outputting to the OSSC and scaling to 1200p (or 1080p for 1080p displays) though? I'm not even convinced this is the premium option here.

It's literally the difference between Hi-Def NES and NESRGB. Of course people would pay a premium for a direct digital output with no analog conversion.

ZellSF wrote:
PVMs, scalers and ODEs are all much much better value propositions than this. They all give you something you can't get close to with the alternatives.

I see it the other way around. It's PVMs and scalers which aim to come close to a digital output like UGX-02. They look great, sure, but they also can't match digital perfection. With good PVMs being nearly unobtainium with additionally steep requirements for your systems, it's hard to argue for those as a comparitive "value," especially for future-proofing.

Wolf_ wrote:
Here are my thoughts:
1) 720p is a strange resolution to upscale to. Better to have some upscaling so it will work on more older hdmi tvs as a lot of them have issues with 240p/480i content but 720p doesn't upscale evenly into 1080p resulting in pixel rounding so if you don't have a 720p or 4k display then this is a problem. On the other hand if you don't have a 4k display and are spending $420 on a TG-CD then you should reevaluate your life choices.
2) TG-CD Ode, fuck yea! But it isn't compatible with every game so who knows what it works with at this point and where issues might pop up. It does speed up the load times though which is fantastic.
3) It has at max 1 frame of lag. Why does it have any lag? The ossc is a fpga upscaler+converter and it has 3 lines of lag so how does this end up with 17ms? It says "at most" so maybe that is only when using the TG-16 and it has to convert the signal?
4) The price is totally justified if you have a TG-CD collection/want to. (Assuming it works with the vast majority of games and isn't a bigger pain in the ass to use than it is worth)
Overall I give it a wait and see.

1) All of those are reasons why you'd want 720p if you couldn't have both 720p and 1080p. It seems that they didn't want to resample anything and wanted to stick to line multiplying. I'd love to see 4x or 5x with 1080p but I assume it's a limitation of their FPGA, much like Kevtris' stated reason for leaving 5x out of the Hi-Def NES (it's there for Nt Mini).

3) It's because of the potentially mismatched refresh rate if it has to convert to 60hz for HDMI. If it allows you to reclock the entire system for exactly 60hz output like the Hi-Def NES and Super Nt can do, then you can have 0 frames of lag. Those same systems will let you run at the original speed, which means that they will either show screen tearing or drop a frame the instant the display and source get more than one frame apart (your choice for most systems). This means it will only be buffering a tiny number of lines for each frame until they add up to a full frame at which point it will drop the frame and transmit the next one as it is generated with 0 latency. It can take hundreds of frames to get that far out of sync, which means it is only buffering lines... like OSSC, and averages 0.5 frames of latency.

To be feature-complete, it needs these options:
Reclock the system for 60.0hz video output (not sure if this is possible with a P'n'P device but Hi-Def NES can do this)
Allow the system to drop one frame and reduce latency to 0 after they get that far out of sync
Allow mismatched frame rate with no latency (screen tearing artifacts are possible)

4) It looks like it was a pretty big pain until they recently added an on-screen menu for selecting your games. Previously it required you to select your game by picking/playing different tracks in the CD player!

Wolf_ wrote:
720p is a horrible resolution to upscale to because 1080p (the resolution the majority of people on the planet use currently) is a 1.5x scale of 720p which means that upscaling from 720p to 1080p results in pixel rounding (not exact pixel representation and shimmering optical illusions in scrolling games). 480p on the other hand would upscale perfectly into 720p, 1080p, or 4k but ideally it would output 1080p. An fpga capable of doing that at the $420 price mark would be reasonable. (480p and 1080p would also be perfect integer scales just like 720p and not have any image deterioration)

Ah, but PCE/TG16 isn't 720p. It's 240p. You will be "rounding pixels" no matter how you get to 1080p. You can window 960p within 1080p (borders on all sides) or crop 1200p (loses 24 lines of the full 240p).

With 720p, on the other hand, it's possible to get a non-rounded integer scale on either 720p or 4K displays. You can even window 720p on many 1080p displays if you don't want pixel rounding, so 720p seems to suit what you really want even better than 1080p. It just isn't possible to do 240p to full 1080p without rounding or cropping pixels. It's math and has nothing to do with an FPGA's capabilities.

Mandatory letterboxing plus pillarboxing is a pretty big compromise to get 4x on 1080p, and your display should resample and scale 720p to 1080p as well as any algorithm in the device could do it. 720p really was the best option if they could only pick between 720p and 1080p. Not the first time either: See RetroUSB AVS.

Wolf_ wrote:
As for the 1 frame of lag, if it is caused because of the clock speed not being typical of hdmi then I am disappointed that they didn't apply Kevtris' method of simply reducing the clock speed incredibly slightly, although I'm not sure if that is possible given that it requires the core grafx to run and obviously it couldn't change the clock speed of another device. Maybe they'll add a toggle to run the native clock speed as newer displays/random older ones can accommodate the irregularities.

Kevtris has the same mode that drops one frame when they drift too far apart, so you could say that it is Kev's method. ;) It says "up to," so here's hoping they have various other options, but I doubt they can reclock the system for the same reasons you do. They are replicating the VDC so who knows what's possible with that (too bad they don't replicate TWO for upgrading older systems to SuperGrafx!). I'd love to see a "Direct" mode that allows non-standard timings (like UltraHDMI and others). I wouldn't doubt if it has the option to allow screen tearing or frame duplication to run at the original speed but I haven't seen confirmation of this. Worst case scenario is that it averages 0.5 frames of lag.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:11 pm 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
Wolf_ wrote:
1080p would be the best because then your additional display wouldn't have to do any additional processing which might cause problems or add lag.

You still can't scale 240p to 1080p without resampling or doing the very thing you seem so concerend about (unevenly scaling lines/columns). 240p to 1080p requires a 4.5x scale. It can't just output the 240p source as full 1080p natively without doing some kind of scaling to get there.

To get there, you have to quadruple and quintuple every other pixel, resulting in uneven line thickness and, thus, the "every other pixel" scaling artifacts you so despise. 3x 720p or 5x 1200p would both be superior to 1080p in this regard.

The "every other pixel" concerns you bring up are the exact reason 720p is the better choice, unfortunately. Maybe a UGX-03 can support 5x 1200p, cropped 5x 1080p, 3x 720p, 2x line-double, 1x 240p, original timing direct mode with optional reclocking, etc along with a second VDP for SuperGrafx support. One can wish, right?

Lawfer wrote:
Models of displays with a native 720p resolution?
That is the problem with 720p, there might have been 1 (maybe 2) LCD ever released once upon a time that had a native resolution of 720p, but yeah you won't be able to track one down in 2017 and their specs are pretty bad anyways compared to the best 1080p/4K TVs.

Doesn't have to be LCD. Plenty of large plasmas that are 720p. My local Goodwill has a huge NEC-brand plasma with DVI for $10 right now. Looks like it's over 40" (maybe 46). I think it was used for campus video distribution or something and has BNC connectors for RGBS. Unfortunately, it's only 480p. Thought about getting it for UpperGrafx anyway if they ever add 240p/480p output.

If you insist on LCD then get a 4K LCD. Plenty of those around too, and 720p integer scales to 4K. Of course, particular TVs have a way of throwing a monkey wrench into it anyway, with simulated overscan that is often forced... or the option is deeply buried. That's a problem for 1080p sets as well.

orange808 wrote:
Most "720p" displays are 768p.

...and many 1080p HDTVs are actually 16:10 1200p. There are three in the room with me right now. Some 768p displays will let you letterbox 720p just like some 1200p displays will let you letterbox 1080p (these in the room with me don't :().

Wolf_ wrote:
...he had no idea what an integer was. And it was not nonsense because that information and explanation came straight from numerous MyLifeInGaming videos talking about upscalers and the best way to play various consoles.

Strange. That's almost like trying to trump his authority with his disciples!

Unseen is directly responsible for the rash of digital video products that MLiG raves about when they discuss these kinds of things. He reversed the DAC in the GC component cables and released all the info to a Github in 2014. It became the foundation of nearly every other retro digital or retro digital to analog video mod since that wasn't from Kevtris or UpperGrafx. GC Video/Plug/Pluto/etc, UltraHDMI, N64RGB, N64 Advanced, WiiDual, etc. He's the one who gives MLiG their integer scaling options in the first place, so it's safe to say that he knows what an integer is. ;)

Sorry, man. You picked a fight with the wrong guy and no one told you sooner because they were amused.


Last edited by CZroe on Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:57 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 694
Sad that this still doesn't look like it will be the perfect and complete replacement for an optical drive (personally, I could care less about digital output, analog can look "perfect" enough with the right setup).

For now, looks like if I want loading games from SD card, fast loading times, and 98% compatibility, I'd be better off using wiimadnafen on a Wii with RGB (hell, if you really want digital now you can get a WiiDual kit, this + OSSC is still cheaper). Or, until the right ODE is developed, I'll keep playing on CDs and enjoying the sweet mechanical sounds of the CD-RomRom's shitty laser assembly, trying not to breath near the console to prevent the redbook audio stream from getting cut.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:16 am 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 352
CZroe wrote:
Hi guys I'm replying to an argument from months ago!

God damn thread necromancers.
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