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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:22 am 


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Location: Montréal, Canada
BONKERS wrote:
Complaining about the price is hardly a universally held opinion. What you are doing is more approaching group think.


To be fair, you're the only other person who didn't find the price too high :)

Assuming that there were no other changes between revisions (the 720p limitation in both versions seems to indicate there weren't), we can see the cost of the ODE component: 44,980 - 35,800 = 9,180 JPY, or roughly US$412 - US$328 = US$84.

So it would seem that the upscaling component is worth $328, and the ODE component is worth $84.

BONKERS wrote:
But I don't think it isn't worth the value considering it is plug and play, comes with an enclosure, a console specific high res upscaler without artifacts and no necessary tweaking, and optical drive emulation.


The problem is that the value is highly restricted by it being console-specific. If we assume the previously mentioned breakdown is correct, then you've got a product that costs twice as much as the OSSC, which is also plug-and-play without any tweaking if you have a compatible display, but can handle many more consoles than just the PCE.

I'd argue that the ODE component is the part that is, if its price is isolated by itself (to US$84), a good deal. That said, there are clearly alternative solutions being worked on for the ODE portion, meaning you will be able to get great quality video out of the PCE while still using an ODE for only a fraction the price.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:57 pm 


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I would support the guy who makes the pCE cd-rom replacement.

Does anybody know how far Deunan is with his solution?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:01 pm 



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He is awaiting his latest pcb revision, if there will be no problem he will start producing them.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:09 pm 



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Since I'm sure I am not the only one, I preordered (or attempted to at least) one of the Ubergrafx units. I am sure others did too. "Expensive" yes, but it is all relative.

Quite frankly, I don't care if it cost the creator $2 to make the unit - if so, more power to them. The price reflects an attempt at extracting value and it appears there is at least some interest at that price.

If someone were super concerned about "value", a RetroPie for $35 gets you 99% of the way there. With PVMs, scalers, ODEs, we are all paying a premium for that final 1%. Definitely not rational by any measure. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:22 pm 


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I'd go for one if deunans pce ode project didn't exist.
I agree that price isn't that much of a put off if you really want something.
Good luck to the creator, it's great to see devices like this being made =]
Some things I don't like about this solution are;
Looks like it is not secure, without physically latching onto the console maybe it will wobble?
Personally I'm not interested in av output, only the ODE.
ODE functionality is not explained or demonstrated to any depth, maybe it will not/cannot achieve 100% compatibility?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:07 am 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
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strygo wrote:
If someone were super concerned about "value", a RetroPie for $35 gets you 99% of the way there. With PVMs, scalers, ODEs, we are all paying a premium for that final 1%. Definitely not rational by any measure. :)

Is the 720p output of this so much cleaner than a RGB modded DUO outputting to the OSSC and scaling to 1200p (or 1080p for 1080p displays) though? I'm not even convinced this is the premium option here.

PVMs, scalers and ODEs are all much much better value propositions than this. They all give you something you can't get close to with the alternatives.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:06 am 


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I received an email from Beep this morning thanking me for the pre order. Apparently there is a production delay and these won't be available until November. I will post more details when received


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:39 am 


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Quote:
For me this is all about the ode replacement. I would still use the rgb out I fitted to my pce most of the time. That is the part I am really interested in


Me too, I'd even take the upscaler part that I don't really need if it meant not having to play the Deunan lottery.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:49 am 


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Went to the Beep shop in Akihabara today, they had one on display plugged to a Coregrafx, playing Spriggan Mk2 from the SD card.
They were using a crappy small LCD screen though, so in terms of video quality not really convincing.

Edit : oh well that's the exact one pictured in the initial blog post.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:27 am 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 352
Here are my thoughts:
1) 720p is a strange resolution to upscale to. Better to have some upscaling so it will work on more older hdmi tvs as a lot of them have issues with 240p/480i content but 720p doesn't upscale evenly into 1080p resulting in pixel rounding so if you don't have a 720p or 4k display then this is a problem. On the other hand if you don't have a 4k display and are spending $420 on a TG-CD then you should reevaluate your life choices.
2) TG-CD Ode, fuck yea! But it isn't compatible with every game so who knows what it works with at this point and where issues might pop up. It does speed up the load times though which is fantastic.
3) It has at max 1 frame of lag. Why does it have any lag? The ossc is a fpga upscaler+converter and it has 3 lines of lag so how does this end up with 17ms? It says "at most" so maybe that is only when using the TG-16 and it has to convert the signal?
4) The price is totally justified if you have a TG-CD collection/want to. (Assuming it works with the vast majority of games and isn't a bigger pain in the ass to use than it is worth)

Overall I give it a wait and see.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:17 am 



Joined: 19 Oct 2013
Posts: 552
Location: Riverside, CA
Wolf_ wrote:
4) The price is totally justified if you have a TG-CD collection/want to.


I feel like the opposite is more true. For $400-something dollars you're not going to get far in collecting TG-CD/PCE-CD. But if you just want to play them this is gonna be WAY cheaper than collecting.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:15 am 


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1) 720p is a strange resolution to upscale to.

but it's the easiest one, since you can restrict the upscaling to do an integer 1:3 scale (240p -> 720p) on the vertical. This way you don't have to care about complex shaders, especially if you also want to add a scanline feature.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:59 am 


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Wolf_ wrote:
1) 720p is a strange resolution to upscale to.

I would say it's a perfectly reasonable choice from the designer's point of view: Vertically it's 3*240, so no the image can just be integer-scaled and horizontally you should get "nicer" scaling factors if your target is 960 pixels (to keep the 4:3 aspect ratio) instead of the 720 pixels you need for 480p. Going directly to 1080 would require twice the pixel throughput in the scaler and the average user isn't part of the Cult Of The Integer Nearest Neighbour, so letting the TV do the final scaling step is not a problem.

If you want More Integer[tm], lobby the TV makers for nicely-scaled support of CEA mode 12 (2880x240, ~60Hz) - it's specifically meant for things like old game consoles because with just a little bit of padding you can integer-scale many classic console resolutions to it, but as far as I know it's not a mandatory format for devices with an HDMI input.

(and if you do lobby them, lobby for the whole family of 2880-modes which also exist for 480i and 480p as well as their "PAL" counterparts)

Quote:
3) It has at max 1 frame of lag. Why does it have any lag? The ossc is a fpga upscaler+converter and it has 3 lines of lag so how does this end up with 17ms? It says "at most" so maybe that is only when using the TG-16 and it has to convert the signal?

I suspect it has a frame buffer internally, but without more details or access to an UGX for measurements it's hard to say what it does exactly. In the worst case it could be that the output is not locked to the input, so you would occasionally get a dropped or duplicated frame or tearing, in the best case they buffer just as little as needed to stay just a little bit ahead of the output frame.

The problem with the PC Engine is that it can be switched between 262 and 263 total lines per frame, which results in a frame rate slightly below or above 60 Hz (59,82 or 60,05). I don't know if there are any games that constantly switch during gameplay, but the UGX must be able to handle both since both are used by existing games.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:09 am 


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@Unseen: you mentioned earlier that it was possible to the grab digital video data from the expansion port and work with that. Do you we have any reason to believe that this unit does it like that or doesn't it make more sense to believe, that it simply uses the analogue RGBs to do an A/D conversion and upscale the signal?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:26 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
@Unseen: you mentioned earlier that it was possible to the grab digital video data from the expansion port and work with that. Do you we have any reason to believe that this unit does it like that or doesn't it make more sense to believe, that it simply uses the analogue RGBs to do an A/D conversion and upscale the signal?

If it was my design, I would use the digital video data because a level converter for that is cheaper than a suitable ADC. Given the high price of the Upergrafx, going the ADC route would be possible cost-wise, but I would really have to question their sanity then.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:54 am 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 352
DejahThoris wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
4) The price is totally justified if you have a TG-CD collection/want to.


I feel like the opposite is more true. For $400-something dollars you're not going to get far in collecting TG-CD/PCE-CD. But if you just want to play them this is gonna be WAY cheaper than collecting.


If you want to play them via a huge burned disc collection and wear out your laser faster which will require you to replace a part that hasn't been in production for decades and isn't going to be cheap. Also this plays them with reduced loading times. Price is totally justified in my mind as long as it eventually supports the entire library of games and homebrews.

Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
1) 720p is a strange resolution to upscale to.

but it's the easiest one, since you can restrict the upscaling to do an integer 1:3 scale (240p -> 720p) on the vertical. This way you don't have to care about complex shaders, especially if you also want to add a scanline feature.


Unseen wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
1) 720p is a strange resolution to upscale to.

I would say it's a perfectly reasonable choice from the designer's point of view: Vertically it's 3*240, so no the image can just be integer-scaled and horizontally you should get "nicer" scaling factors if your target is 960 pixels (to keep the 4:3 aspect ratio) instead of the 720 pixels you need for 480p. Going directly to 1080 would require twice the pixel throughput in the scaler and the average user isn't part of the Cult Of The Integer Nearest Neighbour, so letting the TV do the final scaling step is not a problem.

If you want More Integer[tm], lobby the TV makers for nicely-scaled support of CEA mode 12 (2880x240, ~60Hz) - it's specifically meant for things like old game consoles because with just a little bit of padding you can integer-scale many classic console resolutions to it, but as far as I know it's not a mandatory format for devices with an HDMI input.

(and if you do lobby them, lobby for the whole family of 2880-modes which also exist for 480i and 480p as well as their "PAL" counterparts)

Quote:
3) It has at max 1 frame of lag. Why does it have any lag? The ossc is a fpga upscaler+converter and it has 3 lines of lag so how does this end up with 17ms? It says "at most" so maybe that is only when using the TG-16 and it has to convert the signal?

I suspect it has a frame buffer internally, but without more details or access to an UGX for measurements it's hard to say what it does exactly. In the worst case it could be that the output is not locked to the input, so you would occasionally get a dropped or duplicated frame or tearing, in the best case they buffer just as little as needed to stay just a little bit ahead of the output frame.

The problem with the PC Engine is that it can be switched between 262 and 263 total lines per frame, which results in a frame rate slightly below or above 60 Hz (59,82 or 60,05). I don't know if there are any games that constantly switch during gameplay, but the UGX must be able to handle both since both are used by existing games.


720p is a horrible resolution to upscale to because 1080p (the resolution the majority of people on the planet use currently) is a 1.5x scale of 720p which means that upscaling from 720p to 1080p results in pixel rounding (not exact pixel representation and shimmering optical illusions in scrolling games). 480p on the other hand would upscale perfectly into 720p, 1080p, or 4k but ideally it would output 1080p. An fpga capable of doing that at the $420 price mark would be reasonable. (480p and 1080p would also be perfect integer scales just like 720p and not have any image deterioration)

As for the 1 frame of lag, if it is caused because of the clock speed not being typical of hdmi then I am disappointed that they didn't apply Kevtris' method of simply reducing the clock speed incredibly slightly, although I'm not sure if that is possible given that it requires the core grafx to run and obviously it couldn't change the clock speed of another device. Maybe they'll add a toggle to run the native clock speed as newer displays/random older ones can accommodate the irregularities.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:28 am 


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Wolf_ wrote:
480p on the other hand would upscale perfectly into 720p, 1080p, or 4k

Why are 2.25 (480->1080) or 1.5 (480->720) better scaling factors than 1.5?

Quote:
1080p would also be perfect integer scales just like 720p

4.5 doesn't look very integer to me.

Quote:
then I am disappointed that they didn't apply Kevtris' method of simply reducing the clock speed incredibly slightly

They offer a plug-and-play, purely external solution. Since the PC Engine does not have Genlock capability (as far as I know), they cannot change its clock speed from the expansion bus.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:44 am 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 352
Unseen wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
480p on the other hand would upscale perfectly into 720p, 1080p, or 4k

Why are 2.25 (480->1080) or 1.5 (480->720) better scaling factors than 1.5?

Quote:
1080p would also be perfect integer scales just like 720p

4.5 doesn't look very integer to me.

Quote:
then I am disappointed that they didn't apply Kevtris' method of simply reducing the clock speed incredibly slightly

They offer a plug-and-play, purely external solution. Since the PC Engine does not have Genlock capability (as far as I know), they cannot change its clock speed from the expansion bus.


http://www.nobell.org/~gjm/pc/aspect.html


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:52 am 


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Wolf_ wrote:
http://www.nobell.org/~gjm/pc/aspect.html

Since you were just arguing about the vertical scale, aspect ratio does not matter. The target image is always wider than the source image, so the scaled picture will always fill the height of the target image and conservation of aspect ratio only needs to consider the width of the scaled picture.

So, let me ask again: Why is it better to vertically scale by a factor of 2.25 (for 480 to 1080) or by 1.5 (for 480 to 720) than to scale by 1.5 (for 720 to 1080)? Why do you think that 4.5 (240->1080) is an integer scaling factor?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:02 am 



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Unseen wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
http://www.nobell.org/~gjm/pc/aspect.html

Since you were just arguing about the vertical scale, aspect ratio does not matter. The target image is always wider than the source image, so the scaled picture will always fill the height of the target image and conservation of aspect ratio only needs to consider the width of the scaled picture.

So, let me ask again: Why is it better to vertically scale by a factor of 2.25 (for 480 to 1080) or by 1.5 (for 480 to 720) than to scale by 1.5 (for 720 to 1080)? Why do you think that 4.5 (240->1080) is an integer scaling factor?


More information is provided on that page than aspect ratios. Go back, reread, specifically look at the width side of the equation.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:34 am 


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Wolf_ wrote:
More information is provided on that page than aspect ratios. Go back, reread, specifically look at the width side of the equation.

You seem to have a width fixation for some reason. Maybe that is why you cannot explain why 1.5 is better than 1.5?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:42 am 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 352
Unseen wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
More information is provided on that page than aspect ratios. Go back, reread, specifically look at the width side of the equation.

You seem to have a width fixation for some reason. Maybe that is why you cannot explain why 1.5 is better than 1.5?


Here is some additional help:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Z7JA14


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:17 pm 


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Wolf_ wrote:
Here is some additional help:

Nope, still not seeing the relevance of either of your links or your fixation on width. Maybe you should try explaining what your point is using words instead of links?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:55 pm 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 352
Unseen wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Here is some additional help:

Nope, still not seeing the relevance of either of your links or your fixation on width. Maybe you should try explaining what your point is using words instead of links?


I was hoping you would have basic reading comprehension skills and save me the effort of having to spoon feed everything to you. Guess not. Okay here we go:
Width&Height (height being the number used for the resolution, as in 240 = 240p and 2160 = 4k)
320x240
720x480
1280x720
1920x1080
3840x2160

You seem to not understand what an integer is so allow me to copy and paste a definition for you because you can't read anything I don't type:
Integer - A number with no fractional (decimal) part. A counting number, like 1, 2, 3, and so on, but including 0 and the negatives.

Meaning 2.25 is not an integer, but 2 is. So lets look how this breaks down with 240p:
320x240(Integer x1), 640x480 (Integer x2), 960x720 (Integer x3), 1280x960 (Integer x4), and 2880x2160 (Integer x9)

As the turbografx/pc engine is 240p natively that means that forcing it to output 720p would be Integer x3. So your display takes a look at that and tries to make 720p fit into 1080p so what we get is integers of 720p now:
1280x720 (Integer x1), 2560x1440 (Integer x2) uh oh, that's too big.

The display doesn't give a crap though so what it does is resort to a non-integer scale of 1.5x aka perfect 1920x1080p resolution, except you can't have halve a pixel, so it resolves this issue by doubling every other pixel. This creates a shimmering effect when scrolling as the pixels constantly change in thickness between 1 and 2 pixels wide, and even in non side scrolling games generally makes things look exceptionally out of place. This effect is amplified by the fact that we are working with a 240p source so all the pixels are already enlarged to 3x their size before this effect is applied making it extra noticeable.

If instead 480p was used:
720x480 (Integer x1), 1440x960 (Integer x2)

As 1080p is 1920x1080 if we subtract 1440x960 from it we are left with 480x120 empty pixels +80x0 pixels from the 240p to 480p upscale (which gets multipled by 2 when processed by the display so 160x0), aka a black border 320 pixels wide on the sides and 60 pixels tall on the top/bottom) if we tell the display not to stretch (If you tell it not to stretch with 720p on a 1080p display you will be left with 720p).

This gives us a pixel perfect representation of the game with the bare minimum of empty space, as opposed to literally 33% wasted via 720p if we want to avoid pixel distortion and optical illusions while playing side scrollers.

So this device was clearly made with 4k displays in mind because a 1080p screen will absolutely butcher it.


Last edited by Wolf_ on Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:12 pm 


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Funnily enough I had another email about this today in Japanese. Through google translate it said they had come up against a fatal error in production and its on hold until that is redesigned


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:26 pm 


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Quote:
The display doesn't give a crap though so what it does is resort to a non-integer scale of 1.5x aka perfect 1920x1080p resolution, except you can't have halve a pixel, so it resolves this issue by doubling every other pixel.

doesn't happen. The rescale from 720p to 1080p smoothens the image a little bit. Think of a bilinear upscale with an existing prescale. I very much prefer this to pixel perfect rendering.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:54 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
The display doesn't give a crap though so what it does is resort to a non-integer scale of 1.5x aka perfect 1920x1080p resolution, except you can't have halve a pixel, so it resolves this issue by doubling every other pixel.

doesn't happen. The rescale from 720p to 1080p smoothens the image a little bit. Think of a bilinear upscale with an existing prescale. I very much prefer this to pixel perfect rendering.



In my experience that isn't the case at all. It has to do something to make the image fit, you can't divide a pixel or take any away so I'm not really sure what kind of wizardry you are claiming the display works but if it is a 1.5x scale then it has to do something to fill the other 33% of the screen, something inaccurate.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:59 pm 


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In my experience that isn't the case at all.

and which scaling devices does your experience include?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:17 pm 


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My god, you think TVs do a nearest-neighbor upscale from 720p to 1080p? And you're so sure you're right that you wrote several paragraphs about it?


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:58 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
In my experience that isn't the case at all.

and which scaling devices does your experience include?

I'm more curious about how you're claiming to get accurate-ish 1080p upscaling.

bobrocks95 wrote:
My god, you think TVs do a nearest-neighbor upscale from 720p to 1080p? And you're so sure you're right that you wrote several paragraphs about it?

I did NOT want to. That other guy was really having trouble reading anything not typed by me though.


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