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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:19 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1567
CZroe wrote:
Thanks. I think I understand. This is talking about how to transmit 240p over HDMI, but it does so by essentially multiplying pixels and lines... so it's no longer 15khz 240p which can be easily be converted back to 15khz 240p RGBHV using a VGA adapter. That's the kind of 240p he is saying would be incompatible but we see others doing it all the time.

...or have I been wrong this whole time and "direct mode" for UltraHDMI, RetroTink 2X, and OSSC are putting line-doubled 240p (480p) through those VGA adapters?

I don't know for sure, but it sounds like the pixel doubling only a horizontal double (so 720x240->1440x240) for the purpose of meeting that minimum throughput threshold for transmission over the wire; but does that mean that it gets interpreted that way at the end, or does it get decoded/desampled back to its pre-transmission format? I would think that if the TX chip has to transform the video in that way, and with that transformation being defined in the spec, that there would be some kind of flag signalling to the downstream processor that the image has been altered and that it needs to be transformed back to its original state.

As for the Passthrough modes for at least the OSSC, my understanding is that the image is pixel-doubled horizontally; whether or not that means that the connected display or video processor will correctly interpret that resulting signal is beyond me. I imagine that UltraHDMI's Direct Mode necessarily does the same thing, additionally with the selection of using the native refresh rates or the framerate-converted 50 or 60Hz.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:30 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
I don't know for sure, but it sounds like the pixel doubling only a horizontal double (so 720x240->1440x240) for the purpose of meeting that minimum throughput threshold for transmission over the wire

It's only pixel doubling, not line doubling - every pixel is sent twice, the horizontal and vertical sync frequencies stay the same.

Quote:
but does that mean that it gets interpreted that way at the end, or does it get decoded/desampled back to its pre-transmission format?

If it's implemented correctly, the receiver discards all copies of the pixel except the first one - but if it's a DAC it doesn't really matter because you would get essentially the same output if it either drops every second pixel or if it outputs all of the copies.

Quote:
I would think that if the TX chip has to transform the video in that way, and with that transformation being defined in the spec, that there would be some kind of flag signalling to the downstream processor that the image has been altered and that it needs to be transformed back to its original state.

There is a field for that in the AVI infoframe.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:51 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 464
Digital 240p -> HDMI to VGA converter -> Sync Combiner has worked in every analog RGBs scenario I've tested. I can try to test with my TG-16 through the OSSC in passthrough mode this week to triple check, but every other console and arcade board I tested in that setup worked fine.

If he can implement it, that makes this a plug-and-play, jailbar-free RGB option, with less than $40 worth of parts.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:45 pm 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
nmalinoski wrote:
CZroe wrote:
Thanks. I think I understand. This is talking about how to transmit 240p over HDMI, but it does so by essentially multiplying pixels and lines... so it's no longer 15khz 240p which can be easily be converted back to 15khz 240p RGBHV using a VGA adapter. That's the kind of 240p he is saying would be incompatible but we see others doing it all the time.

...or have I been wrong this whole time and "direct mode" for UltraHDMI, RetroTink 2X, and OSSC are putting line-doubled 240p (480p) through those VGA adapters?

I don't know for sure, but it sounds like the pixel doubling only a horizontal double (so 720x240->1440x240) for the purpose of meeting that minimum throughput threshold for transmission over the wire; but does that mean that it gets interpreted that way at the end, or does it get decoded/desampled back to its pre-transmission format? I would think that if the TX chip has to transform the video in that way, and with that transformation being defined in the spec, that there would be some kind of flag signalling to the downstream processor that the image has been altered and that it needs to be transformed back to its original state.

As for the Passthrough modes for at least the OSSC, my understanding is that the image is pixel-doubled horizontally; whether or not that means that the connected display or video processor will correctly interpret that resulting signal is beyond me. I imagine that UltraHDMI's Direct Mode necessarily does the same thing, additionally with the selection of using the native refresh rates or the framerate-converted 50 or 60Hz.
OK, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks. Reading back through the thread I see references to this even way back in 2017 when many still thought it was sampling and scaling an analog source.

retrorgb wrote:
Digital 240p -> HDMI to VGA converter -> Sync Combiner has worked in every analog RGBs scenario I've tested. I can try to test with my TG-16 through the OSSC in passthrough mode this week to triple check, but every other console and arcade board I tested in that setup worked fine.

If he can implement it, that makes this a plug-and-play, jailbar-free RGB option, with less than $40 worth of parts.


Since he's the engineering type and I'm not and there is a language barrier, I'm having difficulty convincing him that it's a real thing that is possible, works, and that there is demand for it. I'm going to collect every quote I see and hit him with them to see if it will change his tune on that. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:57 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 694
CZroe wrote:
Since he's the engineering type and I'm not and there is a language barrier, I'm having difficulty convincing him that it's a real thing that is possible, works, and that there is demand for it. I'm going to collect every quote I see and hit him with them to see if it will change his tune on that.


Doing god's work.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:22 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 464
CZroe wrote:
Since he's the engineering type and I'm not and there is a language barrier, I'm having difficulty convincing him that it's a real thing that is possible, works, and that there is demand for it. I'm going to collect every quote I see and hit him with them to see if it will change his tune on that. :)

It seems you're having the same frustrations I had with him - There should be no need to "convince" him of a lot of this. His stubbornness is maddening and I'm glad you're the one dealing with him and not me. LOL, no offense :)

I don't have original PCE/TG-16 hardware with me now, so I shot a video with the MiSTer outputting 1:1 original "240p" signal through the converters (ignnore the speckles in the 1st part, that was my fault). If he needs proof that original hardware will work, I'll borrow some equipment and run it through the OSSC in passthrough mode and demonstrate the same tests...but I've already tested that with many consoles and arcade boards.

It works.

There are more converters coming out soon to make this easier too. Please just add this feature ;/ https://youtu.be/bHvIiT_RsFw


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:22 pm 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
retrorgb wrote:
CZroe wrote:
Since he's the engineering type and I'm not and there is a language barrier, I'm having difficulty convincing him that it's a real thing that is possible, works, and that there is demand for it. I'm going to collect every quote I see and hit him with them to see if it will change his tune on that. :)

It seems you're having the same frustrations I had with him - There should be no need to "convince" him of a lot of this. His stubbornness is maddening and I'm glad you're the one dealing with him and not me. LOL, no offense :)

I don't have original PCE/TG-16 hardware with me now, so I shot a video with the MiSTer outputting 1:1 original "240p" signal through the converters (ignnore the speckles in the 1st part, that was my fault). If he needs proof that original hardware will work, I'll borrow some equipment and run it through the OSSC in passthrough mode and demonstrate the same tests...but I've already tested that with many consoles and arcade boards.

It works.

There are more converters coming out soon to make this easier too. Please just add this feature ;/ https://youtu.be/bHvIiT_RsFw

LOL! Thanks.

Yeah, I understand where the communication is breaking down tho' so I don't think it's just him being stubborn, per se:
He thinks he gave me an engineering reason why it won't work and, since I clearly know much less than him about EE stuff (especially regarding DVI/HDMI), he has no reason to second-guess himself. If I insist without irrefutable examples he might just assume that I'm simply wrong. To him, I'm just some random guy on the Internet who knows far less than him about the matter, and he's right... though I don't know the how or why, I just know this particular thing is possible anyway thanks to you guys. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:02 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 464
Cool. You keep at him and I'll keep finding & testing better HDMI to SCART solutions.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:02 am 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
@UperGrafx tweeted about supporting 1080p several days ago but didn't actually show anything until today. Like DCHDMI's 480p x2, it's really 960p in a 1080p window (240p x4) with x5 horizontal scaling. He's sticking to integer scales except he's also got a mode where every fourth line is quintupled instead of quadrupled for 1020p and a slightly better aspect ratio, but that means visual artifacts for vertical scrolling. Also, he says that you won't be able to toggle between all modes due to limitations so maybe he plans to branch the FW (or leave it out?).


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:22 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 694
Unscaled 240 is never gonna happen is it?

Now that I think about it, I wonder why he's been the only one to figure out how to tap directly into the PCE's digital AV.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:40 am 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
fernan1234 wrote:
Unscaled 240 is never gonna happen is it?

Now that I think about it, I wonder why he's been the only one to figure out how to tap directly into the PCE's digital AV.
I think it's less about tapping it and more about using the FPGA to replicate the function of the chip that processes it, much like Hi-Def NES has to intercept the bus between the CPU and PPU and replicate the NES/Fami PPU in order to get digital video. Not sure but maybe it replicates one of the VDP, VDC, or VCE chips or something after snooping a bus that goes between them. Would be awesome if it could replicate the duplicate chip and turn a standard PCE into a SuperGrafx but there definitely aren't enough resources on the FPGA he's using.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:28 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Now that I think about it, I wonder why he's been the only one to figure out how to tap directly into the PCE's digital AV.

He isn't... He might be the only one that released something though.

CZroe wrote:
I think it's less about tapping it and more about using the FPGA to replicate the function of the chip that processes it, much like Hi-Def NES has to intercept the bus between the CPU and PPU and replicate the NES/Fami PPU in order to get digital video. Not sure but maybe it replicates one of the VDP, VDC, or VCE chips or something after snooping a bus that goes between them.

The only thing that needs emulation is the palette memory in the VCE, which is not that complicated because the only thing that can write to it is the CPU.

The other problem that needs to be solved is that the PCE video modes (three different horizontal resolutions and some things that influence the number of lines per frame) must be scaled to something resembling a standard HDMI mode without creating shimmering artifacts due to uneven integer scaling or excessive blur.

Quote:
Would be awesome if it could replicate the duplicate chip and turn a standard PCE into a SuperGrafx but there definitely aren't enough resources on the FPGA he's using.

I'm not sure if this is possible, but I haven't looked at the hardware differences in detail. It looks like it would require replicating an entire VDC on the FPGA, which certainly increases the resource requirements quite a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:01 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 402
Unseen wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Would be awesome if it could replicate the duplicate chip and turn a standard PCE into a SuperGrafx but there definitely aren't enough resources on the FPGA he's using.
I'm not sure if this is possible, but I haven't looked at the hardware differences in detail. It looks like it would require replicating an entire VDC on the FPGA, which certainly increases the resource requirements quite a bit.


Well, Hudson did say in an interview at the time of its release that it was technologically impossible to upgrade the PCE to a Supergrafx through the expansion port.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:43 am 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
Unseen wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Now that I think about it, I wonder why he's been the only one to figure out how to tap directly into the PCE's digital AV.

He isn't... He might be the only one that released something though.

CZroe wrote:
I think it's less about tapping it and more about using the FPGA to replicate the function of the chip that processes it, much like Hi-Def NES has to intercept the bus between the CPU and PPU and replicate the NES/Fami PPU in order to get digital video. Not sure but maybe it replicates one of the VDP, VDC, or VCE chips or something after snooping a bus that goes between them.

The only thing that needs emulation is the palette memory in the VCE, which is not that complicated because the only thing that can write to it is the CPU.

The other problem that needs to be solved is that the PCE video modes (three different horizontal resolutions and some things that influence the number of lines per frame) must be scaled to something resembling a standard HDMI mode without creating shimmering artifacts due to uneven integer scaling or excessive blur.

Quote:
Would be awesome if it could replicate the duplicate chip and turn a standard PCE into a SuperGrafx but there definitely aren't enough resources on the FPGA he's using.

I'm not sure if this is possible, but I haven't looked at the hardware differences in detail. It looks like it would require replicating an entire VDC on the FPGA, which certainly increases the resource requirements quite a bit.

By his description, we're definitely going to get shimmering with vertical scrolling if he releases this 4.25x scale. :(

Thanks for the insight into the hardware.



SamIAm wrote:
Unseen wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Would be awesome if it could replicate the duplicate chip and turn a standard PCE into a SuperGrafx but there definitely aren't enough resources on the FPGA he's using.
I'm not sure if this is possible, but I haven't looked at the hardware differences in detail. It looks like it would require replicating an entire VDC on the FPGA, which certainly increases the resource requirements quite a bit.


Well, Hudson did say in an interview at the time of its release that it was technologically impossible to upgrade the PCE to a Supergrafx through the expansion port.

Right, but all that changes when you can replicate internal parts of the system (or an entire system!) on an attached FPGA if you want and there is no need to send the output back into the system. Recall that the NES does not have digital video available anywhere in the system and yet Hi-Def NES is able to generate it by replicating the PPU in FPGA and running it in parallel with the real PPU.

SuperGrafx is basically a PCE with two VDCs. Even if the expansion port does not let you attach a second VDC and interface with the first, perhaps an attached FPGA device could replicate BOTH VDCs... and fool the software into running in SupeeGrafx mode. The system itself may only be outputting half the sprites from one VDC but the attached FPGA doesn't even need that since it's replicating both.

Yes, it would take a much more powerful FPGA, like Unseen says, but we already know the DE10 Nano has that power since the MiSTer core replicates the whole SGX. ;) It just puts us right back to the question of whether or not it's possible with what is available through the expansion port.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:01 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 694
Maybe the real solution is not a plug and play attachment via the expansion port, but an added board like the DCHDMI, WiiDual, etc. installed on the PCE. The cost of the board + install + PCE console would still most likely be significantly cheaper than a SuperGrafx. And then it would not just be for a 5-game library (of which arguably only 2 games are good), but also for digital output, optional (please!) scaling, and perhaps other features too (ODE!).


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:09 am 


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If any of you plan on attending the Portland Retro Game Expo in Oregon, I will be there along with the creator of the UperGrafx. The UGX-02 with the latest firmware features will be on display so anyone interested can see/play/buy it in person. We will be at the Infinite NES Lives booth.

CZroe wrote:
Yeah, I understand where the communication is breaking down tho' so I don't think it's just him being stubborn, per se:
He thinks he gave me an engineering reason why it won't work and, since I clearly know much less than him about EE stuff (especially regarding DVI/HDMI), he has no reason to second-guess himself. If I insist without irrefutable examples he might just assume that I'm simply wrong. To him, I'm just some random guy on the Internet who knows far less than him about the matter, and he's right... though I don't know the how or why, I just know this particular thing is possible anyway thanks to you guys. ;)


Unfortunately, 240p support isn't going to happen.

Long story short, there aren't enough pixels to scale it evenly. The UperGrafx wasn't designed with analog displays in mind, and implementing it would require a hardware redesign. And a hardware redesign isn't going to happen unless either 1) he can get some sort of guarantee that ~200 units of the redesign would sell (either via crowdfunding or some sort of patronage), or 2) someone in the community with enough technical know-how (and Japanese ability) decides to join him in his development efforts. That said, he does take user suggestions into account, and does try to make any additions/changes that he can, but he usually has a good reason if he doesn't.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:33 am 



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 59
Cuilan wrote:
If any of you plan on attending the Portland Retro Game Expo in Oregon, I will be there along with the creator of the UperGrafx. The UGX-02 with the latest firmware features will be on display so anyone interested can see/play/buy it in person. We will be at the Infinite NES Lives booth.

CZroe wrote:
Yeah, I understand where the communication is breaking down tho' so I don't think it's just him being stubborn, per se:
He thinks he gave me an engineering reason why it won't work and, since I clearly know much less than him about EE stuff (especially regarding DVI/HDMI), he has no reason to second-guess himself. If I insist without irrefutable examples he might just assume that I'm simply wrong. To him, I'm just some random guy on the Internet who knows far less than him about the matter, and he's right... though I don't know the how or why, I just know this particular thing is possible anyway thanks to you guys. ;)


Unfortunately, 240p support isn't going to happen.

Long story short, there aren't enough pixels to scale it evenly. The UperGrafx wasn't designed with analog displays in mind, and implementing it would require a hardware redesign. And a hardware redesign isn't going to happen unless either 1) he can get some sort of guarantee that ~200 units of the redesign would sell (either via crowdfunding or some sort of patronage), or 2) someone in the community with enough technical know-how (and Japanese ability) decides to join him in his development efforts. That said, he does take user suggestions into account, and does try to make any additions/changes that he can, but he usually has a good reason if he doesn't.


The problem with unevenly scaled pixels is solved when you use a wide integer scale adapted to analog because the size will be automatically corrected by the display. Bob and Mike Chi discussed that in their interview yesterday:
https://youtu.be/OnyzCRi3how

If the horizontal integer scale required for the HDMI pixel clock/fill rate is too much for some reason then perhaps he could do an extremely wide 480p that would get compressed back down to 4:3 on a VGA monitor?

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try to introduce him to Metal Jesus Rocks if he is there at Portland Retro Gaming Expo! MJR has a huge following and has openly stated many times that he wants to get true digital HDMI options for all of his consoles. If he can get MJR interested then it will lead to a lot more public interest. When MJR talked about UltraHDMI I sold my next one for $750... a record at the time, and then the next for $800, then $900, then $1,000, then $1,077, then $1,007. I started bids at a penny every time.

This guy DEFINITELY generates interest and has already publicly stated his desire for exactly the thing the UGX provides- well... almost. I think MJR only has a TG16 instead of a PC Engine. :( Why is that a problem? Well, my first working UGX seemed to work on TG16 but died soon after. The replacement seemed to have something changed to prevent the same failure but it also no longer works with TG16. I offered the UGX guy a TG16 to work on it but David Shadoff had already sent him one. Unless MJR has a PCE he has never mentioned/showed, UGX will probably need to fix TG16 support to appeal to MJR.


Last edited by CZroe on Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:05 pm 



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Here's the video with timestamp where Mike Chi starts talking in a bit more detail about 240p super resolutions with a high enough pixel clock: https://youtu.be/OnyzCRi3how?t=687

It's basically what custom resolutions on PCs have been doing for a while. The Raspberry Pi can also do it with standard CEA modes (including 240p with pixel quadrupling, which is CEA 12): https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... t/video.md

I think 1920x240 is just right to fit all the horizontal resolutions of the PCE library, but if that's not high enough then the next multiple would surely be enough.


In sum, there is no reason for 240p to not be viable, the dev just needs to look into this for a few minutes and it should be clear that there's no need for a hardware revision. I'd bet quite a lot that adding 240p support, and including other requested features such as easier CD image loading (and support of the Redump bin/cue format) would ensure a lot of interest in this product, more than just 200 units. It would be the SSDS3 killer!


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:40 pm 



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fernan1234 wrote:
Here's the video with timestamp where Mike Chi starts talking in a bit more detail about 240p super resolutions with a high enough pixel clock: https://youtu.be/OnyzCRi3how?t=687

Thanks! I was nodding off when I wrote the other post about it and couldn't stay awake to find it... even left it playing at 2X hoping I'd catch that part before falling asleep... LOL! Nope. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:29 am 


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An update regarding the PRGE: UperGrafx now has a dedicated booth (#626, Hall D), will no longer be sharing space with Infinite NES Lives.

And here's another update for all of you asking for analog RGB support, the tl;dr version is: the current UGX model is practically at its limit in terms of hardware resources (currently at 94% usage), so adding something like analog RGB support is not going to be possible. If you all want a new model that is cheaper, has analog RGB, and supports multiple disc image formats, you're all going to need to get together and help him fund the development of a new model that has a more powerful/modern FPGA in it. A longer and more detailed explanation will be available relatively soon.

retrorgb is going to try to meet up with us during the PRGE to discuss some things related to this.

CZroe wrote:
Well, my first working UGX seemed to work on TG16 but died soon after. The replacement seemed to have something changed to prevent the same failure but it also no longer works with TG16. I offered the UGX guy a TG16 to work on it but David Shadoff had already sent him one.


After what happened with yours, a brand new UperGrafx was then thoroughly tested with David's TG-16 and had no issues. One likely possibility is that not all TG-16 consoles have proper grounding in/around the EXTBUS connector.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:36 pm 



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Cuilan wrote:
you're all going to need to get together and help him fund the development of a new model that has a more powerful/modern FPGA in it.


Once his preferred support platform is announced I'm sure the word will be spread and support will come.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:31 pm 



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Cuilan wrote:
CZroe wrote:
Well, my first working UGX seemed to work on TG16 but died soon after. The replacement seemed to have something changed to prevent the same failure but it also no longer works with TG16. I offered the UGX guy a TG16 to work on it but David Shadoff had already sent him one.


After what happened with yours, a brand new UperGrafx was then thoroughly tested with David's TG-16 and had no issues. One likely possibility is that not all TG-16 consoles have proper grounding in/around the EXTBUS connector.


I should clarify because I totally messed that up. The first one appeared DOA but I had to get a PC Engine to confirm it since Sato (the creator) had never tested with a TG16. In the mean time, I tested on a TG-16 with RF output and found it was booting straight to inserted HuCards (no UGX menu).

I was still under the impression from older operational descriptions and RetroRGB's video that it will always boot straight to the inserted HuCard even when working, so I didn't realize booting straight to the HuCard was abnormal. With this FW it should boot to the menu regardless but I thought you had to boot without a HuCard to see the menu. When I tried without a HuCard I would get a blank screen that was sometimes green.

I happened to see a video from Ms Mad Lemon where she would also get a green screen... from a Super SD System 3
https://youtu.be/0bVWvTqwkq0

In her case it was due to a previous mod removing the shielding which broke a ground connection:
https://forums.terraonion.com/viewtopic ... t=30#p1516

Point is, I was the one who suggested to Sato it might be a ground issue based on the Super SD System 3 problem that also resulted in a green screen. It turns out that it had nothing to do with the issue I was having. All the grounds are present on a TG16.

Sato sent a replacement once we confirmed it was defective using a PC Engine. The replacement appeared to work with both TG16 and PCE... until it suddenly died the next day. Before it died I was experiencing strange issues with the Turbo Everdrive (TED) as a Super System Card (freezes, items/enemies disappearing, random objects dropping, etc). I did not get to try the UGX's virtual Super System Card on the TG-16 before it failed but, with the malfunctioning TED, it seemed to be significantly better on the PC Engine versus the TG-16 (generally longer time before issues start).

Regarding the problem with the original DOA unit, Sato said it had 3.3v internally shorted to ground but the failed components were cheap and easy to replace. He asked me to check the second dead unit for a USB connection on power-up and there was none (just like the DOA unit). We presumed it had the same failure and I never heard otherwise.

Sato said he made a change to prevent the failure and sent me a second replacement, stressing that it was only guaranteed to work with PC Engine, not TurboGrafx-16. He also said I probably shouldn't expect it to work right with the TED because it because there were too many variables with more unofficial hardware in the mix. It's no big deal, because the UGX-02 duplicates the TED's functionality anyway, but something definitely changed: the TED doesn't see the SD card/OS files and, thus, can't be used at all.

Anyway, I have something like 8 TG-16 consoles and they all appear to work with the working UGX-02 ...until you play a Super CD-ROM² titles for about 10-20 minutes. After a while they start to have issues like I was originally getting with the TED as a sys card (freezes, glitches, etc). It does not happen with a PC Engine... only TG-16. This is what I mean when I say it doesn't work with TG-16.

Again, he told me it was only guaranteed to work with PC Engine, so I can't consider that an issue, but I did find something similar when playing with an Arcade Card Duo inserted. I haven't experienced it yet with a title that requires an Arcade Card but it happens regularly in Super CD-ROM² titles (Akumajo Dracula X Chi no Rondo) and Super CD-ROM² titles with Arcade Card enhancements (Popful Mail). I can play normal Super CD-ROM² titles all day long on PCE with UGX virtual Super System Card but not when I add the Arcade Card Duo inserted (eventually has errors).

Now, the issues my UGX has with TG-16 seem to be the same the previous UGX had with the TED as a Super System Card. It's possible that my earlier unit would have done the same thing in a TG-16 without the TED but I never got to test it that way before it died. Since TED no longer works with it, the only way I know the TED exacerbates it is because it had the same issues on the PCE, but I now know that it eventually has those issues regardless on a TG-16.

Sorry for the deep-dive, but I've done a lot of testing and mine definitely doesn't work properly with the TG-16. It does work well enough that someone plugging it in and starting a game might initially think so. TG-16 has all the ground connections needed and the issue is not the same as Ms Mad Lemon with her Super SD System 3. Sato discourages people expecting to use it with a TG-16 and I've confirmed that mine does not work well. His only advice to me regarding that issue was to clean the connections, which I have done. I have confirmed the issue with enough systems and power supplies (now using one David Shadoff says should work perfectly) to know that the issue is with my UGX, not the console. I hesitate to even call it an issue when he never guaranteed TG-16 compatibility.

I will happily join the crowd-funding for a new model, especially if it works with the TG-16. If not, well, I already plan to trade extra TG-16 consoles for a CoreGrafx and CoreGrafx II so I'll be able to make use of it. :)

I saw his tweets about selling refurbished UperGrafx "UGX-Q5" units at a reduced cost. Though I'm not able to attend PRGE to buy one, I am interested. Do you know if there is any difference in functionality from UGX-02? Is this what RetroRGB had for his video that featured the UperGrafx? Perhaps I can get someone to pick one up for me. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:34 am 


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CZroe wrote:
I saw his tweets about selling refurbished UperGrafx "UGX-Q5" units at a reduced cost. Though I'm not able to attend PRGE to buy one, I am interested. Do you know if there is any difference in functionality from UGX-02? Is this what RetroRGB had for his video that featured the UperGrafx? Perhaps I can get someone to pick one up for me. :)


They are identical to the UGX-02 in terms of specs.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx "UGX-02" - TG16/PCE DVI Upscaler w/SD CDROM2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:38 am 



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Cuilan wrote:
CZroe wrote:
I saw his tweets about selling refurbished UperGrafx "UGX-Q5" units at a reduced cost. Though I'm not able to attend PRGE to buy one, I am interested. Do you know if there is any difference in functionality from UGX-02? Is this what RetroRGB had for his video that featured the UperGrafx? Perhaps I can get someone to pick one up for me. :)


They are identical to the UGX-02 in terms of specs.

Looks like he already sold out on Day 1 open to the public. Once people see one of these they want it!

I couldn't help but notice that he was demoing Akumajo Dracula X Chi no Rondo on the TurboGrafx-16 where mine will eventually hard lock or glitch out in other ways with any TG-16 (works fine with PC Engine). I mean, mine appears to work and sometimes you can play for a while but you definitely can't play for hours and 100% complete the game. If he was able to exhibit it all day on a TG-16 then his is definitely working better than mine. I'll have to ask him about that when he's not as busy.


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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:04 pm 


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PRGE went very well for us. The creator has much more confidence in the UGX being able to sell well overseas after receiving so much positive feedback, and also from selling out so fast. We might return to the expo next year. We also talked with a hand-full of potential business partners, but we'll see what happens with that.

CZroe wrote:
Looks like he already sold out on Day 1 open to the public. Once people see one of these they want it!

I couldn't help but notice that he was demoing Akumajo Dracula X Chi no Rondo on the TurboGrafx-16 where mine will eventually hard lock or glitch out in other ways with any TG-16 (works fine with PC Engine). I mean, mine appears to work and sometimes you can play for a while but you definitely can't play for hours and 100% complete the game. If he was able to exhibit it all day on a TG-16 then his is definitely working better than mine. I'll have to ask him about that when he's not as busy.


We were cycling the displayed games regularly, but Rondo of Blood never had any issues whenever it was running. I believe the UGX attached to the TG-16 was running on a newer beta firmware though.
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 Post subject: Re: Upergrafx
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:29 pm 



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Cuilan wrote:
PRGE went very well for us. The creator has much more confidence in the UGX being able to sell well overseas after receiving so much positive feedback, and also from selling out so fast. We might return to the expo next year. We also talked with a hand-full of potential business partners, but we'll see what happens with that.


Hopefully this comes to fruition. The demand is there for sure. The SSDS3 sold very well even though even the latest revision has issues, and the CD-ROM2 emulation itself has inaccuracies too. The PCE is very much a Japanese system and I would trust a Japanese developer much more to get things right, as well as better test its large NTSC-J library beyond just Rondo of Blood and a few other games most Western users tend to play.


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