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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:13 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 315
Are you terminating the sync signal with a 75 ohm terminator at the monitor? If you are, then two things:

First, you're probably sinking a large amount of current from the Extron. It could be prone to running hotter, and something could even burn out inside of it.

Second, my 2050R2 does weird things based on what's happening on the sync line. I haven't done a thorough investigation, but I think that what is happening is that it detects whether the sync line is terminated with 75 ohms, and if it is, it then expects the sync pulses to be within a certain voltage peak-to-peak. If it's too high, the monitor will bias the entire picture.

For both points, you can fix the issue by putting a 560 ohm resistor in series with the sync line out of the Extron. Alternatively, if you're using an Extron for all of your consoles, you can probably get away with simply removing the 75 ohm terminator.

In my case, with an Extron 160xi outputting sync and a terminator on the monitor sync input, I saw that the picture was way too bright even with a 330 ohm resistor in series. A 560 ohm resistor, which brought the sync level down to a mere 0.5Vp-p, made it so that the monitor no longer biased the picture's brightness.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:20 pm 



Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 22
Thanks for the response. When you ask if I am terminating the signal with a 75 ohm resistor, do you mean the terminator caps on the monitor loop outputs? I do have caps on those, but otherwise haven't added any resistors. Am I not supposed to have those on? I thought they were necessary to protect the monitor. Without the terminator caps on the output the display is much brighter, and the manual for a similar Ikegami says to use them when not connecting another monitor to the loop outputs.

Yeah, all of the consoles are connected to the Crosspoint.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:02 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 315
NYI wrote:
Thanks for the response. When you ask if I am terminating the signal with a 75 ohm resistor, do you mean the terminator caps on the monitor loop outputs? I do have caps on those, but otherwise haven't added any resistors. Am I not supposed to have those on? I thought they were necessary to protect the monitor. Without the terminator caps on the output the display is much brighter, and the manual for a similar Ikegami says to use them when not connecting another monitor to the loop outputs.

Yeah, all of the consoles are connected to the Crosspoint.



You posted on reddit/CRT Gaming, too, right? I'm the guy who sent you those manuals. :)

The short answer is this: Keep all of the 75 ohm terminators on the monitor's R-G-B video inputs, but try taking the terminator off the sync input. If you're paranoid about your monitor's health, put a 560 ohm resistor in series with the sync line (get a cheap cable, open it up and splice it in) and leave the terminator on. Either way, even if it doesn't fix your color problem, it's guaranteed to be better for your Extron.

That Extron is outputting sync as a 5V peak-to-peak signal. That means that at the signal's lowest point, it's 0V, and at it's highest, it's 5V. The way these things are typically configured, the signal will be spending most of its time at 5V, and 75 ohm terminators are generally not meant to be used with such high voltages.

When an Extron applies 5V to a 75 ohm terminator, it bleeds out ~66mA of current, which is kind of a lot. Depending on how the Extron is built, that could be far too high for it and eventually cause damage. Also, with 5V on it, the terminator itself is dissipating ~333mW as heat; it's probably literally getting hot, and (again) depending on how it's built, it may even break.

Terminators are less about protection and more about preventing signal reflections. In theory, removing the terminator on the sync line should not actually cause the voltage on the monitor's input to rise. In practice, it probably will rise marginally, but it should still be within the unit's tolerance (IIRC, the manual says 6V max). Signal reflections aren't dangerous; they only cause performance problems. If you can remove the terminator from the sync input and not lose sync on the picture itself, then there is nothing to worry about. With the terminator removed, virtually no current will be bled from the Extron.

If you put a 560 ohm resistor in series with the cable and leave the terminator in, you get the best of all worlds. The Extron only bleeds ~7.8mA of current, the sync input on the monitor only has to tolerate a ~0.5V peak-to-peak signal (the 560 ohm resistor and the 75 ohm terminator form a voltage-divider), and finally, you're pretty much guaranteed not to experience any of the weird brightness-biasing of the kind that I saw.

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:08 am 



Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 22
SamIAm wrote:
NYI wrote:
Thanks for the response. When you ask if I am terminating the signal with a 75 ohm resistor, do you mean the terminator caps on the monitor loop outputs? I do have caps on those, but otherwise haven't added any resistors. Am I not supposed to have those on? I thought they were necessary to protect the monitor. Without the terminator caps on the output the display is much brighter, and the manual for a similar Ikegami says to use them when not connecting another monitor to the loop outputs.

Yeah, all of the consoles are connected to the Crosspoint.



You posted on reddit/CRT Gaming, too, right? I'm the guy who sent you those manuals. :)

The short answer is this: Keep all of the 75 ohm terminators on the monitor's R-G-B video inputs, but try taking the terminator off the sync input. If you're paranoid about your monitor's health, put a 560 ohm resistor in series with the sync line (get a cheap cable, open it up and splice it in) and leave the terminator on. Either way, even if it doesn't fix your color problem, it's guaranteed to be better for your Extron.

That Extron is outputting sync as a 5V peak-to-peak signal. That means that at the signal's lowest point, it's 0V, and at it's highest, it's 5V. The way these things are typically configured, the signal will be spending most of its time at 5V, and 75 ohm terminators are generally not meant to be used with such high voltages.

When an Extron applies 5V to a 75 ohm terminator, it bleeds out ~66mA of current, which is kind of a lot. Depending on how the Extron is built, that could be far too high for it and eventually cause damage. Also, with 5V on it, the terminator itself is dissipating ~333mW as heat; it's probably literally getting hot, and (again) depending on how it's built, it may even break.

Terminators are less about protection and more about preventing signal reflections. In theory, removing the terminator on the sync line should not actually cause the voltage on the monitor's input to rise. In practice, it probably will rise marginally, but it should still be within the unit's tolerance (IIRC, the manual says 6V max). Signal reflections aren't dangerous; they only cause performance problems. If you can remove the terminator from the sync input and not lose sync on the picture itself, then there is nothing to worry about. With the terminator removed, virtually no current will be bled from the Extron.

If you put a 560 ohm resistor in series with the cable and leave the terminator in, you get the best of all worlds. The Extron only bleeds ~7.8mA of current, the sync input on the monitor only has to tolerate a ~0.5V peak-to-peak signal (the 560 ohm resistor and the 75 ohm terminator form a voltage-divider), and finally, you're pretty much guaranteed not to experience any of the weird brightness-biasing of the kind that I saw.

Good luck!


That was me, and thanks again for that!

I did as you said and removed the terminator on the sync loop output. It didn't fix the purple text issue, but at least it'll be better for the life of the Extron as you said.

As an aside, the Xbox 360 through component looked fine in 720P/1080i, so this must be something about the way the Ikegami doesn't like the output coming from the RGB 192/is finnicky about sync. I tried a different VGA output, my laptop, and still got the purple text issue - using the VGA out from the Xbox 360, it wouldn't even sync.

Does anyone know whether having the VGA transcoded to component would fix this? Or would I run into the same problems?


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:13 am 



Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 22
Sorry to double post, but I also wanted to ask - if adding a 75 ohm terminator on the sync line loop output causes the Extron additional stress, what about using the Extron with a PVM, which is self-terminating?


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:56 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 315
That's a good question. It's possible that a PVM puts anything and everything on 75 ohms, and it's possible that the circuitry detects higher voltages and terminates them differently. Anybody have a manual?

Extrons were expensive, and to be honest, I'd be surprised if they weren't built to be able to withstand 66mA flowing from the sync output. It's just that that might be stressful for it - I know that a lot of ICs have a max current rating of 20mA per pin. It also might cook your terminator - many resistors are only made to withstand up to 250mW.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:34 pm 



Joined: 15 Apr 2018
Posts: 8
Hey all! Jumping in here to revive this thread. I'm having a similar issue to what NYI is having. Here is my setup:

PC w/Windows 10 > GroovyMAME w/CRT_Emudriver > Radeon R7 240 > VGA (RGHBV) out > Extron RGB 192V > 4x BNC out > Ikegami HTM-1550R

All of the dip switches are off except for SERR, which is turned on. This fixed the crazy distorted picture and now I have this less distorted picture (I don't know how to insert photos that aren't massive):
https://imgur.com/mN8CJ9D

I tried following some of the comments but to be honest, I'm not very technical, and don't want to do a lot of work I'm not experienced with if it won't fix anything. What else would I need in my setup to straighten out the image and get rid of this skew? I have 75-ohm terminators on the loop-through outputs of the Ikegami.


P.S. I use this exact same setup with my Ikegami TM20-20R and it works flawlessly!


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:29 pm 



Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 22
Hey, would like to know as well. Here's what I know - using the same setup, I get the distortion at the top with my HTM-2005r, but NOT with my PVM! So there's something going on with the top of the image. I've tried using composite sync straight out of the AMD card with CRT-Emudriver. But still the distorted picture at the top 5% of the screen!

Perhaps there's another device we can add to the chain that can fix this? Perhaps the 192v just doesn't get the job done that the 160xi/201rxi seems to do.

I will try the 160rxi instead of the 192v and get back to you. Got one on order.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:52 pm 



Joined: 15 Apr 2018
Posts: 8
Awesome! Keep us posted with the results - interested to figure out how to fix this once and for all!


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:30 am 


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Posts: 322
Location: UK
The Extron 160xi fixed upper skew for me using a PCE Duo-R on a similar (if not the same internally) JVC monitor so definitely try it :)


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:55 pm 



Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 22
It works guys! The 160xi fixed the skew at the top of the image, coming out of the AMD card - like others here have mentioned, the "SERR" dip switch is the only one that needs to be on for this to work. I also used the two "no local monitor" switches in the front.

Also, to hhhikikomori, since I recognized your name from the crt_emudriver forum, did you ever manage to get super resolutions working? I added to your topic there since I was having the same issue - "super" resolutions always appear to be 480i.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:15 pm 



Joined: 15 Apr 2018
Posts: 8
That's awesome news! So, the Extron RGB 192V with SERR enabled still has the skew, but the RGB 160xi with SERR enabled removes the skew? I guess the circuit in the 160xi must be different/better. My Ikegami HTM-1550R is currently being used as my 480p Wii setup (non-TATE), but if I ever decide to move it back to TATE, I'll make sure to grab a 160xi :)

And yes, that is me! I was never able to figure it out - it must be a combination of multiple displays/video cards and the fact that I'm using Windows 10. By manually setting my CRT display to 2560x240@60, it works for all games (and actually helps since I don't have to adjust geometry in between games with different resolutions). Sure, some games might be SLIGHTLY squished, but not really enough to notice.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:32 pm 



Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 22
hhhikikomori wrote:
That's awesome news! So, the Extron RGB 192V with SERR enabled still has the skew, but the RGB 160xi with SERR enabled removes the skew? I guess the circuit in the 160xi must be different/better. My Ikegami HTM-1550R is currently being used as my 480p Wii setup (non-TATE), but if I ever decide to move it back to TATE, I'll make sure to grab a 160xi :)

And yes, that is me! I was never able to figure it out - it must be a combination of multiple displays/video cards and the fact that I'm using Windows 10. By manually setting my CRT display to 2560x240@60, it works for all games (and actually helps since I don't have to adjust geometry in between games with different resolutions). Sure, some games might be SLIGHTLY squished, but not really enough to notice.


That's right, I don't know why the 192V comes up short while the 160xi has no problem.

Also, at the 2560 x 240 resolution, is that progressive? When I tried to use the super resolutions file with Groovymame, it ended up being interlaced.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:57 pm 



Joined: 15 Apr 2018
Posts: 8
It should be progressive! It's basically 240p. I'm not sure exactly how super resolutions work deep down, but I'd ask the GroovyMAME forums :)


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:55 am 



Joined: 01 May 2018
Posts: 45
Hi all, new HTM-2050R1 owner here! Great great monitor, I worked out the kinks associated with running CRT Emudriver with the use of an Extron 203xi with SERR enabled, great! Then I moved on to enabling 480p by setting the dip switch on the remote input board and got a big surprise when I didn't see a 480p setting on any of the dip switches. Do I have the wrong board? Can anyone else with a 2050R1 verify if their board is also missing the dip switch? Is there a way around it besides trying to find another remote board that does have the 480p switch? Here's a pic of the switches on my board.


https://imgur.com/a/6JymkzD


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:09 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 315
That's just like mine.

I'm in Japan. Between myself and a friend, I have confirmed no fewer than six 2050R2s with no 480p dip switches on their MPU boards. Nobody knows of any workarounds, either. Sorry!


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:26 am 



Joined: 01 May 2018
Posts: 45
SamIAm wrote:
That's just like mine.

I'm in Japan. Between myself and a friend, I have confirmed no fewer than six 2050R2s with no 480p dip switches on their MPU boards. Nobody knows of any workarounds, either. Sorry!


Man what a bummer! I had no idea or I would have checked prior to purchasing the monitor. Do you know if the remote card holds any critical information? Basically will I have to do any calibration or anything like that if I find another card that does have the 480p switch?


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:44 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 315
I know of one guy who did find a board with a 480p switch and had it work in his system. I assume he had to do some basic recalibration, yes, but probably nothing extreme.

Good luck tracking one down, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:10 am 


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Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1633
SamIAm wrote:
I know of one guy who did find a board with a 480p switch and had it work in his system. I assume he had to do some basic recalibration, yes, but probably nothing extreme.


That depends, if you want 16:9, you have to do little to no recalibration, it get's more complicated if you want 4:3 480p because none of the Ikegamis technically support 4:3 in 480p.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:29 pm 



Joined: 01 May 2018
Posts: 45
Any idea how to remove/move the lines at the top of the screen in the pic below? They’re clipping the image on the screen. I know my Sony PVM has a setting for this.

https://imgur.com/gallery/kLKulCg


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:14 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 315
Yardley wrote:
Any idea how to remove/move the lines at the top of the screen in the pic below? They’re clipping the image on the screen. I know my Sony PVM has a setting for this.

https://imgur.com/gallery/kLKulCg


Is that only appearing in 240p from a PC? If so, you might want to change the settings in whatever software you're using so that the first scanline starts a few lines later.

If it's also in 240p from consoles, then I'm afraid I don't know what to try. I don't think you'll find the solution in the menu anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:40 am 



Joined: 01 May 2018
Posts: 45
SamIAm wrote:
Yardley wrote:
Any idea how to remove/move the lines at the top of the screen in the pic below? They’re clipping the image on the screen. I know my Sony PVM has a setting for this.

https://imgur.com/gallery/kLKulCg


Is that only appearing in 240p from a PC? If so, you might want to change the settings in whatever software you're using so that the first scanline starts a few lines later.

If it's also in 240p from consoles, then I'm afraid I don't know what to try. I don't think you'll find the solution in the menu anywhere.


Damn that's unfortunate, I have to see if it happens with a console. I love the picture quality on this Ikegami much more than my Sony PVM but the PVM is so much more versatile. Is there hidden extended/service menu for these or is it just what you get when you press menu on the pull out tray?


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:55 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 315
No extended options, sorry.

I'd be surprised if those lines showed up on a console. 240p should technically consist of 262 lines total with 240 of them visible, though some may be blanked out. Those extra 22 are typically split between the top and bottom of the screen. If your PC is configured to put the 22 all at the bottom, that would not be good.

I, personally, have never seen these lines on any of my three 2050s with any of the seven consoles I've hooked up to them. Never tried a PC.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:14 am 



Joined: 01 May 2018
Posts: 45
SamIAm wrote:
No extended options, sorry.

I'd be surprised if those lines showed up on a console. 240p should technically consist of 262 lines total with 240 of them visible, though some may be blanked out. Those extra 22 are typically split between the top and bottom of the screen. If your PC is configured to put the 22 all at the bottom, that would not be good.

I, personally, have never seen these lines on any of my three 2050s with any of the seven consoles I've hooked up to them. Never tried a PC.


I'm using CRT Emudriver by the way. I can hide the lines if I adjust the vertical size of the picture but i was trying to adjust the v/h size differently for normal scan and under scan and that's when the lines show up if switching from one to the other. I thought that each scan mode could save the h/v parameters completely separately from one another but I guess not? I check on my PVM and the setting that adjusts to lines is V BLK TOP. I also did a search on it and people are saying that adjusting that way is a bandaid fix and that the real fix is replacing certain capacitors. I've seen those lines on many of the monitors I've tried through so I don't know if it really is a recap issue and since I can fix it through the menu I've never worried about it. I can tell you that on the Ikegami, the picture is definitely getting cut off a bit on top.

EDIT: the cutting off of the image was being caused by my Extron 203rxi! I just had to adjust the vertical dial on the Extron to bring the picture down a bit!


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:21 am 



Joined: 01 May 2018
Posts: 45
Hey by the way, do you know why the tube on the 2050R (maybe its on the R1/R2 models) has this pitch black look to it? It looks amazing both on and off but I've seen other pictures of 2050R that have the lighter colored tube just like my TM20-20R. Side by side shot below.

https://imgur.com/gallery/2tV3Y2R


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:40 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 315
Yardley wrote:
Hey by the way, do you know why the tube on the 2050R (maybe its on the R1/R2 models) has this pitch black look to it? It looks amazing both on and off but I've seen other pictures of 2050R that have the lighter colored tube just like my TM20-20R. Side by side shot below.

https://imgur.com/gallery/2tV3Y2R


Mine are all lighter colored, as are a friend's. I'm not sure what the deal is with this difference. I've never seen it mentioned in any Ikegami literature. It could be that the R1s are all darker. I just don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:30 am 



Joined: 01 Jul 2016
Posts: 35
It must be the anti glare coating on the screen. I have it on my JVC DT-V's, and Sony monitors have something like that as well. If the screen appear lighter, it means that the coating could be removed.

I realy would love to have one of those Ikegami monitors! :) Especially the Ikegami 1990R. Unfortunately they are almost impossible to get in Europe :/


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:57 am 



Joined: 01 May 2018
Posts: 45
Namingway_PL wrote:
It must be the anti glare coating on the screen. I have it on my JVC DT-V's, and Sony monitors have something like that as well. If the screen appear lighter, it means that the coating could be removed.

I realy would love to have one of those Ikegami monitors! :) Especially the Ikegami 1990R. Unfortunately they are almost impossible to get in Europe :/


The anti glare on this monitor is incredible and it doesn't degrade the picture quality at all, it is still very bright. I own and have owned several Sony monitors and none had such a black tube.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:34 pm 



Joined: 01 May 2018
Posts: 45
Any else’s 2050R have a red glow for about the first minute after first powering it on? See pic

https://imgur.com/gallery/pKQqYBg


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 Post subject: Re: Wonky sync, AFC, and an Ikegami HTM-2050R2: Help wanted
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:49 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 315
Yardley wrote:
Any else’s 2050R have a red glow for about the first minute after first powering it on? See pic

https://imgur.com/gallery/pKQqYBg


That's pretty extreme. I've never seen anything like it on any of mine.

Most weird behaviors that go away after a minute or two of turning the system on are likely due to bad electrolytic capacitors. If I were you, I'd open up the system and take a look at the RGB amp. You'll have to remove the plate from the lower-right area of the back where all the heatsinks are, but after that, it's quite simple. Look for bulging or leaking capacitors. Note that a lot of bulging starts at the bottom, not the top.

Good luck!


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